Itechworld slimline 48Ah lithium battery any users?

Hi Macca thanks for the reply. I'm intending to run a Waeco CFX40 as a freezer so thinking of a 1A draw. A lithium battery of this capacity should be close to a 100Ah AGM in usable capacity, plus the advantage of fast charging. I already have a 80 Ah flooded lead acid battery under the bonnet, but this trip on the Hay River Track will be multiple short days driving in July, so no real opportunities for solar top up. I'm assuming 19-20 h stationary, so possibly 20-30 Ah discharge, so I am concerned that the under bonnet battery won't cope. My intention is to charge the lithium via a Victron 18A DC-DC charger and set the battery up with a Victron 375 watt inverter and multiple USB charging points pretty much like this and anchor to the cargo barrier. The Pajero alternator output varies between 14.4 and 13.7 V so perhaps the dc-dc is not needed but I have it so will set it up. The inverter won't really be needed for this trip as the only thing that I don't have on 12 V or USB charging are the Ryobi One+ tools.

Warren,

I would humbly suggest your 18 amp DC/DC charger may not be big enough, you would be better with at least 30 amps. in order to charge the battery faster. As for your Pajero Alternator, is it a “smart alternator”? Is so, it is likely to drop back the amps when charging once your cranking battery has reached its full charge state, making charging the auxiliary batteries a lot harder/longer.

Macca.

I don't believe it's a smart alternator in my model, the voltage decrease is related to temperature compensation I think. Eighteen amps by four hours should be ample charging capacity I thought.

.
Hi Warren,

I should think that a CX40 will consume more like 2 Amps average when run as a freezer. So it will consume 48Ah over a 24 hour period.
If recharge is available for 4 hours with the charger providing 18A then it should recharge the battery in less than 3 hours. But if your driving time is less than that on any day then your battery may fall short.
But it is probably worth giving it a go. You can always eat all the ice-cream on a shortfall day before it melts. lol

Good info, considering the bigger discharge level advantages of lithium over AGM or other lead acid batteries, I can believe this.
I used to run the Techniice fridge 45lt in the Ranger, along with led lighting and recharge needs (phone, nav devices, drone batteries), and camping overnight the 105 amp/hr AGM would only discharge to around 80% SOC, so smaller lithium would be easy done and so much more compact / light.

Croc099, a 100Ah AGM at 50% discharge gives 50 Ah of available capacity, although even this depth of discharge is considered too high by many. Lithium can provide near 100% for many more cycles than an AGM. The stated 48 Ah of the Itechworld LiFePO4 is the usable capacity of a 54Ah battery, hence the equivalence and the advantage of these batteries over lead-acid batteries.

There's no logical reason why an agm battery should be restricted to 50% discharge. They're certainly capable of deeper discharge than half of their nameplate capacity.

Yes they are, but if you wish to strike a balance between longevity and practical useage, the commonly accepted practice is discharge lead acid batteries to only around 50% SOC.

To strike a similar balance with lithium batteries you can go to around 15-20% SOC.

You are correct in saying you can take an AGM battery down to 10% or whatever, but that affects the battery's longevity far more that it does a lithium battery.

Ultimately an AGM battery provides the same "lifetime" power over its life, with the number of potential cycles affected by the depth of discharge.

If you discharge to 50% SOC, it will be capable of more cycles than if going down to 20% SOC each cycle.

But over its lifetime, the lower number of cycles by the 20% SOC will be compensated by the higher amount of power provide by each cycle..... ultimately same lifetime power provided before it finally goes to battery heaven.

Lithium batteries are typically rated for over 2,000 cycles compared to an AGM's ~500 cycles. Lithium batteries are affected by deeper discharging, but not to the same amount as AGM and as they have a signifcantly lower cycle life, it takes many years before once see any cycle related performance loss in a lithium battery.

And AGM can be signifcantly impacted by not being recharged in a timely manner (sulphanation issues), unlike lithium that acually prefers not to be kept at 100% SOC.

Cheers

Mark

Yes Mark,

That's my take on it as well. Lead based batteries are in widespread use in many industries yet this 50% discharge limit is something I only see within 4x4 / camping forums. By the way, I'm not attempting a comparison between Lead and Lithium chemistries but just questioning the logic that Lead batteries need to be double their respective capacities because of some long held belief that they should not be taken below 50%. In a nutshell, 1000 cycles at 40% delivers the same amount of Ah as 500 cycles at 80%. It seems the confusing element is the usage of the term 'life cycles' and equating it to 'lifespan'. The two are not related.

For example, observe the cycle count / SoC curve of a typical Lead battery from a reputable suppler.
https://trailercamperaustralia.com.au/media/wysiwyg/Fullriver/DC210-12/dc-series-cycle-life-vs-dod.png

Taking a 100Ah battery, if it is discharged by 40% per cycle, the total number of delivered Ah over the life of the battery is 40Ah x 1600 = 64,000Ah. The same battery discharged by 80% per cycle results in 80Ah x 800 = 64,000Ah.

That battery is capable of delivering 64,000Ah regardless of whether it is taken in chunks of 40Ah or 80Ah or any discharge level for that matter.

Totally agree, I think the biggest reason why the 50% SOC limit crops up in 4x4/camping forums is that the resellers of lithium are trying to sell a product that on face value is ~3 times higher cost. By limiting lead acid batteries to only 50% SOC and conveniently ignoring it for lithium, the price comaprison is now only 1.5 times, far more platable to the average consumer budget.

Dollar for dollar, lead acid batteries will always provide more A.hr upon installation. But take lifetime cost into account and there is an argument for lithium on a $ for $ basis.... but it takes ~10 years to realise that saving.

IMHO lithium should be sold on its ~30% quicker recharge time and ~60% lower weight. Most people sell their vehicles or campers around the 5 year mark, right when lead acid batteries are close to replacement. The average person will never realise the longer life cycle of lithium batteries, hence why the targeted advertising on SOC. Its the quicker recharge and lower weight that the average person will benefit from, thats not really a dollar saving selling point.

Cheers

Mark

I have a battery box all set up for a 100 Ah AGM, but it simply will not fit in the available space for this trip. Neither will many of the LiFePO4 batteries, the attraction of this battery is its form factor, the weight saving is a bonus.

I like and use EV Power lithium, a local WA company based in Margaret River but with a unit in Cannington. Here is a link for their 56A.hr battery and only $500. Not sure if the size will suit your needs.

https://www.ev-power.com.au/product/bat-evh12v56ah/

Cheers

Mark

The above replies seem to ignore the fact that an AGM battery at 50% discharged has a voltage that is approaching useless for typical RV usage such as running fridges or things like Travel Buddy ovens, which is a non-issue with Lithium batteries. No use to me having a few Ah left in the bank if I can't keep the beer cold.

A Danfoss compressor low voltage cut-out can be as low as 9.6v and the Engels "solenoid" compressor runs even at 9v. Fridge cycle time may increase, but the fridge will still run and keep your beers cold.

An oven will only have its heating power reduced by the difference in battery voltage. Going from ~12.7v (100%SoC) to ~12.0v (50% SoC) or even down to ~11.5v (0% SoC) will only reduce heating output by less than 10%... something the thermostat should compensate for.

Fortunately, virtually all 12v RV appliances will happily run on 11-14v voltages with no discernable change to performance.

Cheers

Mark

This might change your perspective on lithium performance loss a little Mark, although the 98% discharge level will certainly have had an effect on capacity loss : 12V Lithium "Real World" Test

Summary
Start date: 14/11/2017
Starting Capacity 105Ah
Depth of discharge: 98%
Cycles per day: 2
Last updated: 22/03/2021
Days in operation: 1255
Cycles run: 2748
Current capacity: 77.2 Ah

Wrt the 50% advice for AGMs, it's not LiFePO4 battery sellers who have driven that advice although increased available capacity is clearly ONE of the significant advantages of lithium. The chemistry of AMGs is well understood and afaik there's no debate about what happens when they are regularly heavily discharged. If users stick to the recommended numbers for the respective battery types (50% AGM, 20% LiFePO4) lithium will still last much - probably thousands of cycles - longer.

Is 2-3 times the price of an AGM too much to pay for a lighter, smaller, longer lasting, faster charging battery? Everyone has to make up their own minds about that but I don't buy the argument about total upfront cost given the thou$and$ many people spend on other "essential" camping items.

Think of a battery as a tank of water and the number of cycles as glasses of water. You get double the number of glasses of water out of a tank if you only half-fill the glass... but the total amount of water you get is the same once you have emptied the tank.

Its the same for an AGM battery.... only discharge to 50% SOC and you will get double the number of cycles.

I have lithium batteries in my van and certainly understand their advantages. But the fallacy of more amp hours from a lithium than an otherwise equally rated AGM battery is just that, a fallacy.

I took out perfectly good AGM's to install lithiums. Only reason I did so was to run a 2000W inverter. Lithium can provide a lot higher current than an AGM.... two x 120A.hr AGM could not run a 2000W inverter at full power, yet 2 x 120a.hr lithium can.

The prior AGM's worked just as well and running them to 20% SOC would give me just as long a runtime on my fridge (never actually did, solar or driving meant they rarely were below 75%SoC and never once went below 40% SoC).

While I have appreciate the ~45kg weight saving and ~30% quicker recharge time, there has been no noticable benefit from the lithium, with the exception of running the invertor at full power.

While the lithium should last many, many years longer then the AGM's would have, I would have sold the van by then and will see no battery life benefit to me.

I only get ~2 x 2 weeks trips a year (typical annual leave) plus say 12 x 2 day trips a year (once a month weekend trip away), thats only ~56 days use a year. Running AGM batteries to 50% SOC, thats ~10 years of use at 500cycles.... far longer than I will ever own the van for before replacing.

If every day of every trip reduced the batteries to 20% SOC, I would still get around 200 cycles or 4 years life out of the AGM's.

Unless you need to run a 2000W inverter, there is simply no need to spending 2-3 times more to get lithiums over AGM.

There is no doubt lithium are a technically better battery and if they were the same price, no-one would ever likely choose AGM.

But at ~3 times the cost, AGM are an excellent value choice IMHO.

Cheers

Mark

@Troopie Bloke - 50% SOC on a AGM etc is 12.06v so still plenty to run any 12v appliance.

If you never go off road simple flooded vrla calcium batteries would also serve the average twice a year traveller, cheap enough to replace every couple of years.

No doubt both battery types have their places Mark, but I'm interested in why the "fallacy" about readily available capacity seems to have such credence. Call me a cynic but in particular I wonder why it continues years after AGMs have found their foothold. It's possible that AGM makers initially wanted to bolster their product's standing (a reputation for longevity helps sell them - hence the 50% advice) or equally it may be that constant high DoD actually shortens life considerably.

I've yet to see tests on the reliability of AGMs which have been constantly run to near empty whereas lithiums have been tested and shown to be very resistant to degradation. AGMs also suffer from the Peukert effect which may be apply in individual cases whereas LiFeP04's capacity is not subject to that.

Horses for courses, and I don't think anyone denies that good AGMs still have many applications. That said, if anyone has seen actual test data (in lieu of manufacturer graphs) for high-depletion AGMs I'd love to read it.

Not sure what additional AGM cycle vs DoD life data you are seeking. A huge amount on all battery types available online, both manufacturer and independent.

Lithium batteries only have one downside compared to AGM and thats price. Technically they perform better in every metric, bar none.

I suppose what gets me is the typical lithium battery manufacturer quote:

"... the BRAND DELETED 200Ah Lithium-ion is the equivalent to 400Ah in lead-acid batteries (based on the standard depth of discharge of the 100% and lead-acid battery (50%). ..."

This is not comparing apples with apples and unless one has a good background in the various battery technologies and their advantages and disadvantages, it can be a very misleading statement for the average camper.

Lithium do last longer than AGM under almost every circumstance, but at ~3 times the price, is the cost benefit there?

Unless one requires either higher discharge amps, faster recharge or lighter weight, then AGM are a more COST EFFECTIVE solution.... not a better solution IMHO.

Cheers

Mark

Not looking for rated cycle data or extrapolated manufacturer graphs Mark - there are plenty of those, I'm looking for tests which show that AGMs can actually survive constant high depletion, and for how long before being U/S. Until I see them (one) I remain highly skeptical.

Agree that's a prime example of exploitation by the lithium seller. The Li equivalent is 80% DoD although there is evidence that "100%" depletion will have little practical effect given the already high cycle life.

.
Captain, re FollowUp 10 above, reducing voltage from "12.7 to 11.5" is a reduction of 10% in voltage but that will produce a reduction of 20% in power and heating output in a resistive heating element. Not that it changes the subject argument at all.

But in any case, I just think that the lithium battery produces a better quality of electricity than lead batteries.
But you need to also employ oxygen-free copper cables for the best effect. lol

Hi Allan,

As usual you are right.

I got a bit ahead of myself and originally typed for the 50% SoC then changed to 11.5v without correcting. But as you say, doesn't change the point.

And remember you need nitrogen in your tyres with those oxygen free cables to get 100% effect.. haha.

Better quality electricity, I love it :)

Cheers

Mark

Lithiums are great for weight saving and delivering current but the size and weight of double 0 cable to drive a 3Kw inverter negates it a bit.
Who needs 3Kw in a caravan anyway? And it will never be driven to 6Kw peak current anyway, and if it was how many parrallel batteries would you need so they didnt drop out or worse?
Personally I would never run any battery at 100 plus amps for more than a few seconds.
In my opinion lithiums only logical advantage is size and weight, all the other abilities they have is illogical in travelling arrangements.
It opened the field up for sales persons to prey on people with too many dollars and not enough sence.

.
There is much in what you say Qldcamper.
I am putting a 200Ah lithium battery in my new motorhome purely on the basis of size and weight saving.
I will not even have an inverter of any size...... have no need of one. But there are those who feel they do.
A 2kW or 3kW inverter can pull as much as 250 Amps so you would not want it running for too long methinks.
I may be very nice to have all that instant energy available but then you need the means and time to replace it into the battery. No minor effort.

Allan,
Inverters do have their place within reason.
I have a 350 watt one essentially to run a double electric blanket in winter as we have a soft floor camper so heating is an impractical option, and to chg my 18 volt batteries.
Major advantage is the saving in fire wood and alcohol being able to retire to bed earlier because the bed isnt frozen solid.
May I just add, it runs off a devoted 80 Ah battery and solar panel that gets to just on 7 amps in winter sun.

Yes, fine QC, but 350W is not 3kW is it?
I imagine also that you only use it to pre-warm the bed, not running all night.
I wear 'thermal type' pyjamas and socks but the cold bed is still a bit of a shock at first.
Mind, 12v blankets are available if one wishes to avoid an inverter altogether.

Allan,

"But in any case, I just think that the lithium battery produces a better quality of electricity than lead batteries.
But you need to also employ oxygen-free copper cables for the best effect. lol"

Why spend all that money on batteries that give better quality electricity when, for a few $$, you can plug one of these into your inverter to scrub the dirty electricity produced by those cheap AGM batteries.

Here is an evaluation of the Voltbox.

LOL.

> In my opinion lithiums only logical advantage is size and weight, all the other abilities they have is illogical in travelling arrangements.

In YOUR travelling arrangements you presumably mean QC. For off grid camping then even ignoring the 50/20 advice recharging time is an obvious advantage. Plenty of people can't be bothered with, or like me don't want, expensive hard-wired setups. Thanks to lithium we now have portable and flexible options in a small (transferable) box. Wrt cost - you can get reasonably specced 120Ah LiFePO4s for not much more than a FullRiver AGM, half as much again if you want "brand" name like SK, Pro-Tech, Duramax. You can spend a whole lot more of course but that would be, er, illogical?

Surely the federal government has already invested in Vbox either via Direct Action (is it still alive?) or some more canny BTF Investment Frank?

Politics aside (what's $6M on top of a couple of $billion among friends, after all it's a mere peccadillo compared to Howard and Costello's $100B gift to gas producers), Tesla ended up both broke and broken. Let's hope the scammers at least experience the former.

Allan,
I generally run both sides on high for about half hour ( 10 and a bit amps) then at bedtime switch one side off and one side to low ( 2 and a bit amps) for about 6ish hours.
Considering most places we camp it only gets really cold at night when the skys are clear it works well for us, 3 or 4 hours of decent sun in the morning does the trick.

There are many reasons why one would use a ~2000W inverter and proper installation is not cheap.

I use induction cooking where possible now, not only is it "free" (solar recharge) but extends off-grid camping as it reduces reliance on gas.

Also, as anyone who has cooked in windy conditions knows, the typical gas burners are prone to wind blow-out. Using an electric kettle to boil water is not only far quicker, but no need to keep checking if the flame has blown out.

Obviously there is planning involved if using high-power appliance like an induction cooker (check next day forecast!), but induction cooking really is a pleasure to use compared to gas and electric hotplates. Induction heats instantly like gas and doesn't have an electric element that takes ages to cool down.

I am sure many will poo pha the very idea of modern appliance when bush camping and eskew the campfire as the only "real" way to cook in the bush. But after more years than I care to count of trying to lay out a swag/tent on wet ground, light a fire with wet wood, meat floating in water from the melted ice and not being able to enjoy the sheer pleasure of an icecream on a hot, still night.... well your welcome to the good ol' days :)

I still have my camp oven, fire pit, grill etc.. and do occasionaly use it. But must admit as the years go by, I certainly enjoy the modern trappings while talking about the nostalgic good ol' days around a campfire.

Cheers

Mark

Frank P, I feel the link to the scam Voltbox should be removed from your post above . . . FollowupID: 914469.
As hidden as it is it could be clicked on and believed by some, where it's absolutely an outright scam.

In any case Frank, it's not a VoltBox that is needed.... it's an AmpBox. lol

Les,

"Frank P, I feel the link to the scam Voltbox should be removed from your post above . . . FollowupID: 914469.
As hidden as it is it could be clicked on and believed by some, where it's absolutely an outright scam. "

Link to an evaluation added. That should be a sufficient red flag.

Hi RMD, not too much more expensive, prices are per Ah of stated size:
Enerdrive 100 $9.90 to 11.90 depending on battery
Enerdrive 200 $11.58
Renology 100 $8.80
Renology 50 $6.66
iTech054 $11.12 with case and outlets so if you value the case and 2x Anderson plugs and ciggy plug at $20 $10.75
Renology batteries are clearly the cheapest, I looked at the 50Ah but it still has the brick form factor which doesn't work for me. I'm sure a hunt will find some cheapies but surprisingly few of any brand in the 50-60Ah capacity. iTECH also have a decent warranty at 3 years.

Warren
Would that be Renogy batteries by any chance?

Sorry yes Renogy batteries. Odd word that the brain didn't quite process.

Somewhat surprisingly I haven't seen many slimline lithiums in my net travels Warren but Baintech's similar form factor lithiums are WAY pricier.

Bazooka
That may be because everything named Baintech is high priced not because it is a better quality.

Their products look well made and feedback is good iirc. Any reason for suggesting otherwise?

Bazooka
Just an observation after checking out a variety of different products. ie, Baintech Volt and Ammeter is quite costly compared to the same circuitry available but not with a Baintech plastic case around it. Some I looked at were triple the price. I presume Baintech don't actually make their batteries and simply rebrand and resell at the price they wish to charge. If you have developed a "name" that is what happens. Similar finding with the Pirahna stuff on general electrical.

Sadly, the vast majority of our products are made OS (to spec or otherwise) or assembled here from OS parts. To an extent - depending on the product - the price reflects quality, cost of support and business in general, and brand as you say.

I looked at Baintech about 18months ago when I started researching LFPs and their prices have definitely gone through the roof. I'd hope that this isn't the result of just their solid housings and well setup electrical connections, but who knows. I'd want top quality cells and the best BMS for the price, although the one Warren is looking at isn't unreasonably priced given the form factor. Baintech says they're Au designed and engineered - which is a completely different kettle of fish to rebranded generic Chinese products which flood our shores.

Bazooka
Designed in Australia, means this is how we want the concept to be,
Engineered in Australia, means the electrical engineering of it to a specific degree,
Cells not made in Australia as far as we can find out, they simply say they are the latest prismatic type.
All assembled here or elsewhere? Doesn't say MADE IN Australia The quality may be very good and all ok.
We are starting a lithium battery plant is WA, and until it is running I assume none made in OZ, we are just led to believe certain things by companies.

.
"Designed in Australia" means...... What colour we require.
"Engineered in Australia" means...... Make it suitable for 230vac.

Cynical. Don't know any LFP seller who claims the cells are made here. Pretty much the whole world relies on China for 3.7V cells atm. I have no doubt at all that some sellers specify the cells, BMS, wiring quality etc that they want and quality check the specced product before they buy.