Diesel fuel

Submitted: Tuesday, Jun 29, 2004 at 12:41
ThreadID: 14221 Views:3004 Replies:9 FollowUps:17
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Hi everyone, I have just bought my first diesel (T/D 100s auto Landcruiser 15,000ks)

can anyone give me advice on what to watch out for regarding dirty fuel ect.. I've

just been told bad fuel can cause fuel pump failure $11,000.00 for Toyota. advice

on where not to buy fuel from ( I live in Perth) or what precautions I should take to

avoid problems.

thanks for any advice I've search the archives.

Snatchem
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Reply By: ExplorOz - Tuesday, Jun 29, 2004 at 13:00

Tuesday, Jun 29, 2004 at 13:00
We always buy fuel from locations that have a high turnover of fuel / places where trucks fill up.
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Reply By: Alex Callaghan - Tuesday, Jun 29, 2004 at 13:33

Tuesday, Jun 29, 2004 at 13:33
Try to avoid (if ya can) using "low sulfur" and "Ultra low sulfur" Diesel.

Most fuel companys are using these low sulfur Diesels so it may be hard to avoid.

Low Sulfur mean better for the enviroment. Diesel engines are designed to take fuel with a higher content of sulfur than whats being ofered at most pumps. Valving, Valve seats, Injection systems reley on the sulfur for lubrication and protection and theres is not enough in Diesel now to offer complet protection.

There are additives to suplement the missing sulfur. I use a Diesel conditioner from "Flashlube" . 1ltr is $18 and does 1000ltrs of diesel.
AnswerID: 65654

Follow Up By: Member - Captain (WA) - Tuesday, Jun 29, 2004 at 14:24

Tuesday, Jun 29, 2004 at 14:24
Hi Alex,

Sorry mate but I gotta disagree with you here. Not only is low sulphur better for the enviroment, its better for your engine! Advantages of low sulphur diesel, apart from cleaner exhaust emissions, include reduced corrosion on pistons/rings/bore, reduced contamination of oil and improved storage life of diesel. Note that sulphur itself is NOT a lubricant.

The corrosion improvement occurs as previously the sulphur reacted with the water (combustion by-product) and produced sulphuric acid. This acid aggressively attacks metals as well as contaminating the oil.

The seal problem is supposedly related to "BUNA-N" and Nitrile seals and is potentially a problem for older rotary injection pumps. In-line injection pumps are not affected as they do not have these seals in contact with the fuel.

Apparently the sulphur in diesel causes the seals to swell and switching to low sulphur causes the seal to shrink, cracking it. BUNA-N seals that have always used low sulphur fuel apparently are not affected.

The lubrication issue is caused by the process to used remove the sulphur, as it removes other components that aid lubrication. But refiners are aware of this now and add a lubricant during processing.

Western Australia has had low sulphur diesel since 1/1/2000, when it dropped from 1300ppm to 500ppm. While its a significant (~60%) drop, sulphur is NOT totally removed from the fuel. As of 31/12/2002 it is ILLEGAL to sell diesel in Australia containing more than 500ppm sulphur. Some refiners (BP/Shell) offer ultra low sulphur fuel with only 50ppm, but lubricity is maintained with additives.

Many diesel engines used in Europe previously could not be used in Australia because of our "dirty" diesel. The new regs bring us into line worldwide and will enable more high performance diesels to be used in Australia.

The only "losers" with low sulphur diesel were the early users when the lubrication issues were not well known, along with older rotatry fuel pumps with the older type seals.

I hope this clears up a few misconceptions.

Cheers

Captain
Its not what you drive, but how you drive it!
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Follow Up By: Alex Callaghan - Tuesday, Jun 29, 2004 at 14:33

Tuesday, Jun 29, 2004 at 14:33
Cheers Captain,
I was told to avoid low sulphur and informed it was nothing but detrimental by a local Diesel engineer, so I took his word as gospel.

I can see ya know what ya talking about though mate so..........I stand corrected.

Cheers

Alex.
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Follow Up By: Alex Callaghan - Tuesday, Jun 29, 2004 at 14:50

Tuesday, Jun 29, 2004 at 14:50
Captain,

Mate,Just wanted to add, I'll think you'll find Sulphur is a very effective extreme pressure (E.P.) lubricant that has traditionally protected fuel pumps from wear.

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Follow Up By: Member - Jeff M (WA) - Tuesday, Jun 29, 2004 at 14:51

Tuesday, Jun 29, 2004 at 14:51
I'm with Captain, low sulfar diesel in a new generation diesel is good/better. Less sulfer, less sulfuric acid, the Jap motors are designed to run on it as they have been using it for years!

Also, like Michelle/David said, fuel from Truck Stops is generally good as it's always fresh. What I find even better than that is a new servo or a servo that has got new tanks. Shell in wanneroo for example just had new fibre glass tanks dropped in, hence that's where I fill up. Diesel in Perth pretty much all comes from BP Kwinana refinery, then distributed to places like Terminals West (GULL) which then distribute it to people like Liberty etc.
Mobil also have their own tank farm, and so do BP and I think that's about it as far as the different suppliers in Perth.
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Follow Up By: Martyn (WA) - Tuesday, Jun 29, 2004 at 14:56

Tuesday, Jun 29, 2004 at 14:56
Alex,
For what it's worth Captain WA is right, the motor manufacturers have been advised by the fuel companies about the materials to be used which are compatible with the low sulphur diesels, also applies to the companies that overhaul diesel components. Low sulphur diesel is better all round fuel, better burn, less pollution, less deposits, MORE power, what more could you ask for. A very high percentage of the fuel in WA comes from the Kwinana refinery, rest assured it's good stuff.
Worries about dirty fuel, you can fit an auxillary fuel filter, you can get a Lucas one from Coventry's for about $90, filters are around $6 each plus you get a water trap, well worth while. Most servo's in the metro area have a high turnover so dirty fuel you would like to think is an exception rather than the norm, it's only when you end up in Woop Woop decanting from 205 drums you are taking chances. My opinions as usual.
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Follow Up By: Flash - Tuesday, Jun 29, 2004 at 18:34

Tuesday, Jun 29, 2004 at 18:34
Captain is correct.
Low sulphur is better in every respect.
It's that simple.
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Follow Up By: Alex Callaghan - Wednesday, Jun 30, 2004 at 13:16

Wednesday, Jun 30, 2004 at 13:16
G'day guys!

I'm not here arguing with Captain. I said I stand corrected. Mabey the post came a across as "Sarcastic". It wasn't meant to be.

See ya's!
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Follow Up By: Martyn (WA) - Wednesday, Jun 30, 2004 at 20:54

Wednesday, Jun 30, 2004 at 20:54
Alex,
No problem I didn't see the "banter" as an argument I thought it was more supporting a fellow forumite, teamwork Alex teamwork. If you become a member, "Oh what a feeling". Lol
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Follow Up By: Alex Callaghan - Thursday, Jul 01, 2004 at 13:22

Thursday, Jul 01, 2004 at 13:22
Hey Martyn,
No worries mate! I thought It was dead and I was still being draged through the hot coals ;-)

"Oh what a feeling" indeed! But you wouldn't get that felling in the pootrol now, would ya!
One of my new work utes is a Nissan. A DX Cab Chassis. It was delivered on monday! I'll be taking it into Night Cap N.P on the weekend to "Torture Test" it and see what all the fuss is about (if any). I'm just realy scared I'll like it. Lol
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Follow Up By: Tim HJ61 - Friday, Jul 02, 2004 at 23:37

Friday, Jul 02, 2004 at 23:37
Hi,

So, is there a problem with using an additive like 'Flashlube'?

Tim
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Reply By: Peter Guy - Tuesday, Jun 29, 2004 at 13:37

Tuesday, Jun 29, 2004 at 13:37
We are lucky in WA unlike in the eastern states where I understand there are rouge petrol stations who mix additives to their diesal fuel to increase their profit margins.
AnswerID: 65655

Reply By: Davoe - Tuesday, Jun 29, 2004 at 13:48

Tuesday, Jun 29, 2004 at 13:48
Theres probably not that much you can do except as per other posts try to buy from high turnover mainstream outlets which is most urban servos. As for outback travel you usually get diesal when you need it so you have no option. I think thebiggest problems are encountered when fuelling from jerry cans and 44 gallon drums etc so make sure your jerries are clean as well as funnels and try not to lose sleep over it. If you are really concerned you could look at putting xtra fuel filters in. btw $11k - wow!
AnswerID: 65656

Follow Up By: Member - Jeff M (WA) - Tuesday, Jun 29, 2004 at 14:53

Tuesday, Jun 29, 2004 at 14:53
Yup, you got it Davoe, the black plastic Jerry's I find the best, they don't corrode and rust like the metal ones, they are tuff and seal good. Just make sure if you take a couple of jerrys with you and don't use them, use them when you get back, don't leave it sitting in there, get rid of it and make sure you don't have it festering away in there going off.
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Follow Up By: Bonz (Vic) - Tuesday, Jun 29, 2004 at 17:16

Tuesday, Jun 29, 2004 at 17:16
Even better if you are carrying jerries, is, use the fuel as soon as you can. You will know which stints you are likely to need the additional fuel, so as soon as you've used your 20l or so, at the next rest/stop empty the jerry into the tank, then the next and so on, saves carrying the heavy things full adn gets the fuel off the roof rack or out of the vehicle and into the tank ASAP.
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Reply By: joshinthecity - Tuesday, Jun 29, 2004 at 15:45

Tuesday, Jun 29, 2004 at 15:45
However, the real question is, where the hell did you find such a low klm TD 100?
And..... how much was it ( If I may be so bold )

great truck for your first TD, you'll never go back to petrol.

Josh * niiice *
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Follow Up By: Snatchem - Wednesday, Jun 30, 2004 at 02:31

Wednesday, Jun 30, 2004 at 02:31
joshinthecity sorry for the delay in answering been at the

Sarah Brightman concert, there is a couple around at the moment with

low kms one had only 13,000ks but was 2002 model but it was only a 4

speed auto from memory @ $62,000 4 grand cheaper than the one I

purchased which is 2004 model first purchased in Febuary.

Snatchem
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Reply By: The Banjo - Tuesday, Jun 29, 2004 at 17:26

Tuesday, Jun 29, 2004 at 17:26
And I hear that the poo is hitting the fan in Adelaide re bio-diesel....I will be steering well clear of that stuff.
Re fuel quality, my mail suggests the aforementioned "high turnover outlets" are a good idea - plus the lucas glass bowl filter is a bonus - there are kits to add to most popular cars (can't get one into the Jack though - I'm told).
AnswerID: 65676

Follow Up By: Member - Jeff M (WA) - Tuesday, Jun 29, 2004 at 18:45

Tuesday, Jun 29, 2004 at 18:45
Can't get a Safari Snorkel for a 3.0TD Surf either, nor can you get an airflow snorkel to fit the Terano II 2.7TD.... Oh ^%$# I've got one on mine, and a recent post says they have adapted one for the terrano.
The list of "you can't do that's" is long and myserious isn't it! LOL
Spose you get it with the Jack a bit too. Doesn't it give you the whoopsies!
You gotta wonder how much business these places miss out on by lazy staff turning people like us away...
A guy on the Yahoo Surf forum "couldn't put a 4 runner milford cargo barrier into his surf". It was all different apparantly. Tried 3 places got the same answer, went to the 4th one and they put it in while he waited with no problems, exactly the same as the 4 runner.
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Reply By: Bilbo - Tuesday, Jun 29, 2004 at 23:08

Tuesday, Jun 29, 2004 at 23:08
Banjo,

What's the bad news on Bio-d in Adelaide. As a maker/user of bio-d, Id love to know.

BTW - Captain, Sulphur IS a lubricant - until ya mix it with water. Then it's an acid.

Bilbo
AnswerID: 65742

Follow Up By: Member - Captain (WA) - Wednesday, Jun 30, 2004 at 00:39

Wednesday, Jun 30, 2004 at 00:39
Hi Bilbo,

My understanding of sulphur in the context of diesel fuel lubricity is that the sulphur itself is not a lubricant, but the associated aromatics, unlike in say greases where a sulphur phosporus additive is used for E.P. (extreme pressure) requirements.

When sulphur is removed from diesel, the cheap way is to "hydro-treat", simply add hydrogen (not sure if this is the way all Australian refiners do it.). Unfortunately this also reduces the lubricating components, hence the need for lubricity additives. But will stand corrected if wrong.

Cheers

Captain
Its not what you drive, but how you drive it!
LC 200 + AOR Quantum

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Follow Up By: The Banjo - Wednesday, Jun 30, 2004 at 09:05

Wednesday, Jun 30, 2004 at 09:05
To be fair, I will say no more than you should ring SAFF (fuel distributors) and possibly the RAA technical department if you want to know more. It may be a hiccup and it might be sorted out, but there will be some baggage for the retailers I'd suggest.
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Reply By: Snatchem - Wednesday, Jun 30, 2004 at 02:38

Wednesday, Jun 30, 2004 at 02:38
Thanks everyone for your help greatly appreciated

Snatchem
AnswerID: 65759

Reply By: crowie - Thursday, Jul 01, 2004 at 13:15

Thursday, Jul 01, 2004 at 13:15
Snatchem

I may have missed something, but I suggest you install a water trap between the tank and the standard filter. Mount it on the bulkhead. These have a clear bowl and if you mount it correctly you can see any trapped water and remove it before it gets to your OE filter. These also catch some small dirt and other particles.

Crowie
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Follow Up By: Snatchem - Thursday, Jul 01, 2004 at 22:29

Thursday, Jul 01, 2004 at 22:29
thanks crowie I will install a water trap.
Snatchem
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