Is your 4WD too high tech??

Submitted: Saturday, Aug 28, 2021 at 11:08
ThreadID: 142465 Views:2378 Replies:8 FollowUps:30
Link here to ABC. New news for some and for others forgotten. LOL

Too high tech?
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Reply By: Peter_n_Margaret - Saturday, Aug 28, 2021 at 11:28

Saturday, Aug 28, 2021 at 11:28
My Perkins has ONE wire that makes the engine go or stop.
I know where it is :)
Cheers,
Peter
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Follow Up By: RMD - Saturday, Aug 28, 2021 at 11:55

Saturday, Aug 28, 2021 at 11:55
Peter,
That wire which controls everything must be the CANBUS wire then. Simple really.
My Isuzu Dmax has only one wire which makes it go too, all the others are advisory wires and provide constant comment about the performance level currently being experienced. Sort of back seat driving info I suppose.
There is far to much crap in vehicles now. Most of it claimed to be "asked for by customers", really? We just have to buy what the competitive companies supply. I have never been asked for feedback or what I want in a vehicle.
Even with caravans now, you cannot have some features excluded and left out of a build., to hard for the workers and the CNC cutter I presume. No one can handle how NOT to do something.
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Follow Up By: Peter_n_Margaret - Saturday, Aug 28, 2021 at 11:59

Saturday, Aug 28, 2021 at 11:59
CANBUS?
Nope, don't have one :)
Cheers,
Peter
OKA196 motorhome
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Follow Up By: David I1 - Saturday, Aug 28, 2021 at 12:30

Saturday, Aug 28, 2021 at 12:30
I really have two... but I only need one. They are the leads to the main battery. Disconnect either one and nothing fires up! H a Ha but I get what you mean Peter with all the BS we now have on cars that are Soooooo more reliable than the old ones
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Follow Up By: RMD - Saturday, Aug 28, 2021 at 16:10

Saturday, Aug 28, 2021 at 16:10
Peter.
It has to be the CANBUS wire, with it connected the Bus Can start!
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Reply By: Michael ( Moss Vale NSW) - Saturday, Aug 28, 2021 at 11:47

Saturday, Aug 28, 2021 at 11:47
When you think of the thousands of parts in old or new vehicles working together, they are all still very reliable. I replaced my water pump some time back at around 450,000kms just to keep it reliable, the old pump could have lasted the life of the engine and who knows what that is. The new genuine pump could fail in 20, 000kms. It's a lot of luck involved even if we'll maintained.
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Follow Up By: RMD - Saturday, Aug 28, 2021 at 12:06

Saturday, Aug 28, 2021 at 12:06
Michael
Maintenance is good and changing water pump is a sensible move, I did similar on my HJ61. However, during my mechanical and electrical experiences I have had to find faults and causes with many vehicles and a very large amount of failures have been because a human thing touching it, and if left alone it would have run it's life of the component/s. Yes very reliable in most cases. Some gear is poor quality, ie, as Commodore owners used to ask each other, How many coil packs have you had replaced? They simply accepted the failures.
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Follow Up By: Michael ( Moss Vale NSW) - Saturday, Aug 28, 2021 at 12:36

Saturday, Aug 28, 2021 at 12:36
RMD, I tend to replace things in groups, I also replaced the coolant so good opportunity to replace the radiator, belts and hoses. When I replaced the original clutch, I also replaced the master and slave cylinders. I can think of a list of mechanical things that used to fail in the 70s and that list is still much the same today with some electronics thrown in to keep it interesting. Michael
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Reply By: OzzieCruiser - Saturday, Aug 28, 2021 at 13:13

Saturday, Aug 28, 2021 at 13:13
Electronics and software rarely breakdown it is the mechanical bits that they are connected to.

As it is the electronics that communicate mechanical issues, most think it is all the electronics fault.
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Follow Up By: Allan B (Sunshine Coast) - Saturday, Aug 28, 2021 at 17:36

Saturday, Aug 28, 2021 at 17:36
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True Ozzie, electronic components have high reliability these days. A fault is more likely to be a corroded connector or a dirty contact.
BUT, try fixing it with fence wire or Gaffer Tape when it does happen to be an electronic component on a circuit board somewhere in the dark places! Try even identifying just what the problem really is.

Many OEM electronic devices are present to meet emission requirements, improve fuel economy or as an aid to drivability but are otherwise not essential. Accordingly, they should be capable of being over-ridden for at least several thousand kilometres without putting the vehicle into 'limp mode' or even becoming 'dead in the water'. Once it was "Have I got fuel?", "Have I got a spark?". Now it can be a multitude of issues that prevent the engine to run.

I have just taken delivery of a Mercedes Benz Sprinter. It literally bristles with technology and even though I am trained in electronics I dread the thought of something failing when I am in a remote location.
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Allan

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Follow Up By: OzzieCruiser - Saturday, Aug 28, 2021 at 18:09

Saturday, Aug 28, 2021 at 18:09
You carry the right parts and tools for your old banger - no different with modern vehicles - the correct electronic code/management equipment and the spares that are likely to cause issue.

Yes very different equipment and parts but appropriate for modern vehicles. The advantage of modern portable test equipment is that it will very often tell you what the issue is or at least point you in the right direction - unlike the good old days where it may have been a bit of a guess - relying on the experience of the repairer to quickly diagnose issues.
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Follow Up By: Candace S. - Sunday, Aug 29, 2021 at 01:42

Sunday, Aug 29, 2021 at 01:42
OzzieCruiser,

I'm curious what code/management equipment and spares you carry?

If the failure is a "computer" (might have names such as ECU, ECM, etc.) or other parts, a replacement has to be programmed for that vehicle. AFAIK the programming has to be done at a dealer. Or at any rate by someone with the OEM software and correct equipment to do it.

In 2013 I was with a group of 4WDs in southern Utah. After a midday break, one of the Jeeps wouldn't start. Troubleshooting led to some unit related to the ignition switch. Someone drove out to obtain a replacement at a dealer. Then for various reasons I decided to leave the group and drive out. I stopped that evening to camp near the highway. The guy who had driven to the dealer was on his way back with bad news: the unit couldn't be replaced in the field, and the Jeep would have to be towed to a dealer.

If anyone's interested, the following link covers the route we were on. Bad write-up (including an unrealistic time frame for the route), but there's a map and lots of pics: Hole-in-the-Rock Trail
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Follow Up By: Allan B (Sunshine Coast) - Sunday, Aug 29, 2021 at 09:26

Sunday, Aug 29, 2021 at 09:26
.
Candace, I also sometimes find it difficult to start after a midday break. lol
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Allan

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Follow Up By: Allan B (Sunshine Coast) - Sunday, Aug 29, 2021 at 09:32

Sunday, Aug 29, 2021 at 09:32
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OzzieCruiser,

Sure, I carried a couple of vital spares (wheel bearing, fan belts) in my old Troopy but never needed them as good preventative maintenance was practiced.
But have you considered that a modern vehicle may have as many as five or more processors (ECU etc.) and a myriad of sensors and actuators? Are you going to carry a spare of each?
Carrying "test equipment" is one thing but interpreting it, plus having the replacement and being able to get the vehicle going again is another.
Cheers
Allan

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Follow Up By: AlbyNSW - Sunday, Aug 29, 2021 at 09:51

Sunday, Aug 29, 2021 at 09:51
The new LR Defender has about 30 computers to potentially deal with.

Another aspect, even if you were able to roadside diagnose the issue and carry the appropriate spare can you imagine the cost of buying all these parts in the event you may need one at some stage
Big $$$$$$$
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Follow Up By: OzzieCruiser - Sunday, Aug 29, 2021 at 11:33

Sunday, Aug 29, 2021 at 11:33
You all keep banging on about ECU failure BUT they do not fail or extremely rarely - it is the mechanical things that fail. But yes you could carry a spare ECU if so inclined and a tool to program it. I do not carry a programming tool but I do carry a specified code reader.

Same as you old banger - distributor failure and you no go - who carries a spare but then like ECUs they rarely fail. There are many other components on your old banger that are car stoppers as well that can only be fixed on the roadside by replacement.

A little bit of common sense needs to apply - in 200,000km and 12 years of owning a LR with everything controlled by computers never had a computer issue - yes suspension rubbers, EGRs, brakes - all mechanical but never Electronic Control Units.
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Follow Up By: axle - Sunday, Aug 29, 2021 at 16:37

Sunday, Aug 29, 2021 at 16:37
Yeah !! but its a landrover Ozzie.!


Cheers Axle.
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Follow Up By: Michael ( Moss Vale NSW) - Monday, Aug 30, 2021 at 19:55

Monday, Aug 30, 2021 at 19:55
Allan, I hope you get to use you new Sprinter soon. The way the States are carrying on at the moment, it may not be any time soon to cross the borders or even get away in our own respective states. I'm guessing the next step will be a Q code on a post at every fork in the road, just put your arm out the windows and click on it. Just in case the powers need to know where you are.. Michael.
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Follow Up By: Frank P (NSW) - Monday, Aug 30, 2021 at 20:28

Monday, Aug 30, 2021 at 20:28
Michael.
If that's what it takes to shake off these shackles then I'm for it.
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Follow Up By: Michael ( Moss Vale NSW) - Monday, Aug 30, 2021 at 20:37

Monday, Aug 30, 2021 at 20:37
Frank, a bit tongue in cheek but it's hard to see any end to it at the moment.
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Follow Up By: Allan B (Sunshine Coast) - Monday, Aug 30, 2021 at 22:14

Monday, Aug 30, 2021 at 22:14
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Michael, I am fortunate to live in a State (Qld) that is low-Covid and of large size to offer good travel variety. For now at least!
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Allan

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Follow Up By: Michael ( Moss Vale NSW) - Monday, Aug 30, 2021 at 22:28

Monday, Aug 30, 2021 at 22:28
Yes Allan use it while you can, we can't go more than 5km from home at the moment and the travel windows is closing fast for this year. After October it's to hot for most travel as you know. Michael
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Reply By: Peter_n_Margaret - Saturday, Aug 28, 2021 at 14:03

Saturday, Aug 28, 2021 at 14:03
We were in the far eastern corner of Carson River Station near Kalumburu, travelling with an 18 month old 100 series Cruiser when it flashed an error code indicating a transmission problem.
Then it went into "limp home mode".
Limping home meant over 700km to Kunnunurra, at 30kph maximum.
It took the service agent there 2 days to diagnose a drop of water in a loom plug.
Cheers,
Peter
OKA196 motorhome
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Follow Up By: pmk03 - Saturday, Aug 28, 2021 at 14:43

Saturday, Aug 28, 2021 at 14:43
This is the reason you need to travel with a fault code reader & know how to use it.
A fault code will direct you to where the problem is & usually the first thing to check are plugs in that area.
Could have saved a long drive.
Worst case is a component failure, probably a sensor. Then you have no choice but to get to a service agent.
Have been driving computer managed cars for many years & only ever had plug problems..... So far.
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Paul
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Follow Up By: RMD - Saturday, Aug 28, 2021 at 16:08

Saturday, Aug 28, 2021 at 16:08
pmk03
People sometimes take their vehicle swimming and expect no issues after a dunking.
Often it isn't even the sensors at fault, just a poor negative connection which decides not to allow small current flow, sensor error codes as faulty. A chap I know quite well, had multiple sensor faults ALL at the same time in a near new Navara. transported hundreds of KM's, Dealers shook heads and tried many things. They must have removed and replaced an earth lug at some point, and with little observation reattached it during the investigation. No parts fitted or substituted at any time. Suddenly it started and had NO sensor faults, no code faults at all. There is more to that story.
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Follow Up By: pmk03 - Saturday, Aug 28, 2021 at 20:12

Saturday, Aug 28, 2021 at 20:12
Agree.. Yeah, Water is the enemy of electronics. But often it's because water has worked it's way into the plugs.
Bad earths would make it harder to find.
Doesn't surprise me the dealers took so long to figure out the bad earth. Multiple sensor faults would surely have you looking elsewhere as it's unlikely that multiple sensors would all fail at once. Maybe they need more training in fault finding. The first thing I check are connections if I have an issue.
You reminded me now, I had a 2005 GU with an earthing issue & from memory is was common on the GU
Might be a Nissan thing.....
Having said that in the case of the 100 series a fault code reader probably would have helped. Even if only to clear the code so you could travel out of limp mode, albeit temporarily.


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Follow Up By: Ozhumvee - Sunday, Aug 29, 2021 at 07:22

Sunday, Aug 29, 2021 at 07:22
Nissan ha ha, years ago the large comms company took delivery of the last lot of Nissan Pintara's production.
They were a hodge podge of what was left in the parts bins with weird colour combo's of interior and exterior colours and trim levels and different drivetrains . One I was given to drive had full Skyline instrument panel and dash. There were thousands of them and while most were reliable there were some doozy electrical problems.
Most concerned crook earths and as most were driven by techs with extensive electrical fault finding experience it didn't take long to find that most were ground/earth problems created on the production line, as per usual the body was painted then assembled and most earth points were well painted which meant no of very poor earth connections. Once it was worked out where the problems were we just removed every earth point cleaned the paint off and refitted which cured most of the problems.
There were a few that were real duds though, best one was the one that dumped its entire engine and trans on the road at the second set of lights it ever stopped at! Very poor or nonexistant welds to attach crossmember to body on that one!
Peter
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Reply By: Member - mark D18 - Saturday, Aug 28, 2021 at 19:22

Saturday, Aug 28, 2021 at 19:22
I went back to a low mileage 80 series base model DX manual with a 1HZ .
No cruise , no central locking and has wind up windows and manual locking hubs .

No where near as comfortable as modern cars but at least I can fix most things if needed and it has a lot of interchangeable parts with other cruisers in remote outback locations.
And being a manual if I have starter motor issues I can always clutch start it till I put new contacts in and that’s only about an hours job .
It’s not for everyone though .
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Follow Up By: Member - Lloyd M - Sunday, Aug 29, 2021 at 08:35

Sunday, Aug 29, 2021 at 08:35
I'm like you Mark D18, all my touring vehicles are well maintained 20 year old vehicles, simple and easy to fix anywhere, no or very low level electrics.

I do a lot of paddock spraying in rough tough areas, it really tests things and it is the electronics that usually fail first.

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Follow Up By: OzzieCruiser - Sunday, Aug 29, 2021 at 11:35

Sunday, Aug 29, 2021 at 11:35
LLoyd - what electronics have failed in your 20 yo vehicle.
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Follow Up By: Member - Lloyd M - Sunday, Sep 05, 2021 at 10:31

Sunday, Sep 05, 2021 at 10:31
The electronics on the spraying gear that can't handle the dust, vibrations, moisture etc although they're supposed to be designed to handle it.

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Follow Up By: axle - Sunday, Sep 05, 2021 at 11:37

Sunday, Sep 05, 2021 at 11:37
Hi Lloyd, it was the same with earthmoving machines ,especially excavators around the mid 90s

Nothing but trouble with most of them!'


Axle,

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Follow Up By: Allan B (Sunshine Coast) - Sunday, Sep 05, 2021 at 12:57

Sunday, Sep 05, 2021 at 12:57
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Anyone who believes that electronics are highly reliable has not shared my lifetime of experience operating and maintaining such systems in industry. My wages were paid by the electronic failures.
Sure, electronics have become more reliable, but in a modern vehicle they have also become more prolific, which raises the ante for breakdown. And this propensity increases as the vehicle gets older.

If I am going remote then I want a simple vehicle. And it is not because I cannot fix electronic failures..... it's because I am very aware of the likelihood of failure and its consequences.
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Allan

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Reply By: Michael H9 - Sunday, Aug 29, 2021 at 18:40

Sunday, Aug 29, 2021 at 18:40
This type of thread really sorts out the optimists from the pessimists and it's a battle that's been going for many years. When the optimists invented the aeroplane, the pessimists countered by inventing the parachute. :-)
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Follow Up By: Member - Outback Gazz - Sunday, Aug 29, 2021 at 19:07

Sunday, Aug 29, 2021 at 19:07
"When the optimists invented the aeroplane, the pessimists countered by inventing the parachute. :-)"

Love it Michael love it !!!


Cheers
Gazz
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Follow Up By: Michael ( Moss Vale NSW) - Sunday, Aug 29, 2021 at 19:55

Sunday, Aug 29, 2021 at 19:55
The parachute has certainly proved its worth also but I think If you avoid deep water and mud, your vehicles reliability improves greatly. I try and avoid both.
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Reply By: Gbc.. - Monday, Aug 30, 2021 at 20:19

Monday, Aug 30, 2021 at 20:19
I’m slowly catching up with the tech. I took the dawg for a cruise in the wife’s Subaru at Christmas on some farm tracks. At one point the grass in the centre must have tricked the cameras and we found ourselves having an emergency braking moment. The upshot being a set of dogs nuts looking at me from the passenger floor well. He still looks at that seat suspiciously.
Mechanically though I carry a heap less spares and tools these days than the bad old days when we expected to be replacing bits and pieces all the time. They are definitely more reliable, and there are definitely less things we can hope to repair in the bush too. Double edged sword what.
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Reply By: Candace S. - Thursday, Sep 09, 2021 at 13:52

Thursday, Sep 09, 2021 at 13:52
Back when a spare coil, set of points, and condenser were mandatory (at least per Jack)... :)

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