Bargain AGM's instead of Lithium!? ($600 vs $1800!)

To be clear - this discharge isn't a necessity.

Considering it a nice to have, not a need to have.

That's a nice looking battery though - you have experience with?

And no issue with just one battery for the 3kw inverter? (Am I correct in thinking it IS about AH and NOT about the number of batteries? I.e. for 3kw I need 6x50ah, or 3x100ah or 2x150ah or 1x300ah?)

Sterling appear to sell the same battery but has different specs?

The company above appear to be a TV antenna parts/system supplier, how long have they been selling these batteries?

They indicate WA lithium used but don't indicate where the batteries are made?

The only reference I can find to Deutsche Technologies indicates they closed up shop many years ago?

Morgs,

You've had plenty of comment, and more, so I'd say that if you plan to use the 3kw inverter you need the 250A discharge rating of this or other similar batteries, whether you want that much discharge current or not.
I've only got 2 x 100Ah lithiums from this firm but they have performed well, and are in a robust, compact case, with inbuilt voltmeter. Free delivery sweetened the deal too.
Good luck with what system you decide on.

Leigh,
I know nothing about the origins of this battery/ies, but the company seems to be doing all the right things. Easy communication to their rep, good range of sizes/outputs & competitive pricing. Wondered about the Deutsche Industries moniker too, but didn't follow it up.
We've just bought a caravan & the lithium batteries may go into it, to replace the current AGM's, and then I'll purchase one of these 300Ah units to go into the tug.

Bob

Understood it read like I was planning on that power draw, but I'm not at all.

Was just listing a benefit of the 150ah battery, over the 100ah.

The only thing I'd like to use with high draw would be a microwave, possibly a similarly watt/low-watt/personal A/C (*not* higher watts) sometimes (but also might not bother and got the thorough airflow route).
12v Refrigerator 24/7, 4k 160w TV, 2 x Laptops (1: 20v 300w, 2: 20v 85w), phones, etc . Not planning to be doing all that 24/7, but would like the option to about 12/3

Morgs,

That's a more reasonable situation!

If you have all of those on at once, that's very roughly about 600watts load - about 50 amps out of the battery but add a bit for inverter inefficiency, but then take off a bit for the fridge cycling. So leave it at about 50 amps.

If I read your above post correctly, you might be wanting to do that for maybe 12 hours a day, 3 days a week.

If you choose 2 x 150Ah = 300Ah AGMs and use the rule of thumb to discharge them only to 50%, that gives you 150Ah useable. At 50 amps on a cloudy day with no solar that give you about 3 hours, well short of the 12 which I think is your occasional target - correct me if I'm wrong.

OTOH, if you've got good solar and are getting your 22 amps input from that, your net drawdown from the batteries is 28 amps. Again applying the 50% rule of thumb, that gives you about 5.4 hours.

In both those cases you have 150Ah you have to put back into the battery so you can do it again.

If you opt for Bob Y's lithium battery, the figures would be about 5 hours and about 8.6. Longer run times but now you have to replace 240Ah.

I think your planned AGM system is ok, just, but you might have to moderate your expectations of it.

Apologies if you're familiar with all this, but you did say in your opening post that you were new to it.

Cheers

I'm only familiar enough to bluff with a poker face - but I'm getting there!

They're some great real-world use examples - thanks!

It will come down cost / benefit. If you camp often -> LiFePO4. If you are an occasional camper -> AGM.
No doubt, lithium have superior performance. It's also a myth that AGM should be restricted to 50% of their nameplate capacity.

Not really a myth, Croc. 50% is the best compromise between practical use and longevity. You don't need to religiously restrict yourself to that but when doing a power budget and planning your system it is a wisw consideration.

Deep River EGL100

Specs

Cycles at 50% DOD= 1500 approx, throughput = 50Ah X 1500 or 75000Ah

Cycles at 80% DOD = 1000 approx, throughput = 80Ah x 1000 or 80000Ah

So according to the full river specs the battery is actually more efficient at 80% DOD, work that one out!

I agree that this 50% thing is a myth.
If you calculate Ah of life for all DODs using the Fullriver data that LeighW used, there is a gradual reduction in life as DOD increases. It is gradual.
And Li displays exactly the same trend.
Cheers,
Peter
OKA196 motorhome

Unfortunately Frank, the myth is so ingrained it has reached folklore proportions. The confusion is that life cycles reduce with DoD. It isn't the same thing as life span. Easily reconciled when one considers that with a shallow DoD more cycles are required for the same Ah delivery. It is indeed a zero sum game. The same is true for all batteries.

Remember when AGM batteries were new to the automotive market, the reps selling them made all sorts of claims most of which proved incorrect in time. The worst was they accept a very high charge rate without suffering the surface charge affect.
Hope lithium doesnt prove to be the same, one company I have seen claims to have put their lithium through something like 20 thousand cycles that would have taken nearly 60 years at one cycle a day.

.
Hi RMD,

TLDR = "Too Long, Didn't Read"......... Maybe therein lies much of the dilemma?

Allan.
Thanks for that, makes sense, but it raises the question why the ABC uses it for something they then present to be read by people.
I emailed 4 different ABC staff what the TLDR bit which suddenly appeared a while back and none of them replied to answer what TLDR meant. Even though it was a quick question, maybe they did a TLDR on themselves.
If TLDR is what Morgs did with the info at the top, then he may remain a self proclaimed noob if some reading and basic understanding isn't gained by understanding concepts. We all started out with little understanding but learn things along the way.

RMD,
I haven't seen it on an ABC site but perhaps they use it to denote as a warning to a "long document".
Whatever, but it seems now to have got into the common lexicon that the young'uns use. (Not you Bob!)

As for "understanding", most seem to gain it from painful experience, not from TLDR's. I know that I did!
And I'm sure Morgs will!

RMD, he was pointing out that if his previous post on solar was "TLDNR" for some, he was going with Renogy. And "gotten" is a perfectly acceptable usage. It was used across the English speaking world in earlier times, the US simply retained it...

Cheers,

Mark

.
Stay close Mark. We may need more elucidation before gettin through this. lol

Thanks for those votes of confidence!

And yes - exactly what others clarified above.

Does under 50 make me a young'un? If so - I'll take it!

I wouldn't be buying any battery without testing, and the only reason I considered was the owner showing them on a battery tester : 12.88v, and "excellent". They do appear to be old, unused stock.

But the more I get informed, by you kindly more informed peers, the more Lithium seems worth the investment.

.
Don't be fooled Morgs.
The "battery tester" may have been showing no more than the 'open-circuit' voltage which is inconclusive of a battery's condition other than being not completely dead.

Three factors determine the condition of a battery.... 1) open circuit voltage, 2) voltage under a prescribed load, and 3) the ability to deliver a prescribed number of Ampere-hours over a prescribed time. A satisfactory outcome of all three are required.

And "old, unused stock" can be very deteriorated. A lead-acid battery left for an extended period in a discharged state is likely to be permanently damaged.

Morgs

Voltage alone does not indicate the health of a battery. It needs to be tested under load and if it will hold a charge.

.
Yes Morg. "Under 50 is a "young'un". You are two generations behind me.
I struggle with the rhetoric of the 'younger generations'.
That is not a complaint, merely a realisation!

P.S. I can still type faster than Frank. lol

Righto guys, thanks for sticking with me!

After clearly dodgy (read: no details) communici with seller, I'm back on the 0ne-true-lithium-path.

Young'un Morgs

.
Onya Youngy.

Allan.
If two generations behind, that means they are breeding at 15 years old.

. RMD,
A generation is generally considered as 20 to 30 years. If Morgs is "under 50", trust me, his generation is well and truly the second generation behind me.

Too Long, Didn't Read

.
Peter,
What rating of solar do you have and how well does it cope?

I had 600W and that was fine.
They were replaced under insurance after a prang with some Kogan panels that were sold as being 1200W, but they were no where near that. I got half my money back, but they now produce significantly less that the 600W previously did. I can survive in good weather or if driving regularly, but I need to chuck them out and replace them with something decent.
Cheers,
Peter
OKA196 motorhome

.
There you go Morgs...........
Peter needed 600W of solar and 400Ah battery to run his 1300W inverter reliably. You may be aiming a bit low.
But let's know how it goes in time.

That is not a conclusion that you can draw.
How much power is used consistently PER DAY determines the charge capacity required, not some instantaneous short term maximum.
Cheers,
Peter
OKA196 motorhome

.
Peter,
Just illustrating typical successful systems.
He's considering a "personal A/C" and a 3kW+ inverter.
Stop popping my balloon! lol

OK Allan :)
Not too difficult to do an energy usage calculation. Then the charge and battery needs guess will be closer.
Cheers,
Peter
OKA196 motorhome

.
Not too difficult maybe for you and me Peter, but for some.........???

BTW you might have missed that I'm considering a personal A/C around *700w* (yes they exist), and not higher.

"Given the 3kw inverter - is the point that I need my AH to be multiplied to the 3000w, and the number of batteries doesn't matter?"

Sorry, I don't understand what you're getting at there. As it reads it suggests you're thinking that the 3000w of the inverter must be a simple multiple of the battery capacity. Eg, as I read your sentence it suggest 300Ah of battery would be ok but 315 or 402 would not. If that's what you mean, no, the battery capacity has no mathematical relationship to the wattage of the inverter. It just need to be sufficient to power your loads and you then must has sufficient charging ability to replenish it.


"I.e. For 3kw I need 300ah (or higher) as 6x50ah, or 3x100ah or 2x150ah or 1x300ah?"

Fewer connections between batteries are better, so electrical order of preference would be right to left as you have written it. But managing space and muscling heavy batteries into a confined space can interfere with the ideal and require smaller, interconnected batteries so do what you have to do to make it fit.

From personal experience something like 6 x 50 is a recipe for disappointment.

Right, yes, that was my thinking, thanks for clarifying.

To explain my confusion - I was categorically told, by someone I paid for advice, that my neighbours setup:

1 x 300ah
into
3kw inverter

Was *wrong*

And that he should (ideally) have (at least):

3 x 100ah
into
3kw inverter

(Which I had at the time - tho agm batteries were dead).

The reasoning was that we needed a minimum of 100ah per 1000w, and it *should* be exact.
I.e. 1 x 100ah to 1000w, 2 x 100a to 2000w, 3 x 100ah to 3000w, and so on.

Also, for neighbour to be able to pull 300amps, he needed 3 x the batteries - each putting out 100a each. Given neighbour had only one 300a battery (adviser may have been familiar with his battery, I'm not sure) he wouldn't be able to pull more than 100amps at a time, even though he had 1 x 300ah capacity battery.

To repeat: this is what *I was told*, not what I'm telling.

I might have just been confused given at that stage (the much more naive me of 6 days ago) I was completely unaware of the wildly differing discharge rates of different batteries, including those with the same voltage and ah.

In conclusion - I'm thinking that getting 2 x 150ah SolarKing would be ideal, with view to adding another if need be. So based on yr advice - no problems there?

"Firstly, battery longevity is measured in discharge/recharge cycles, not in time."
What is a "cycle"?
Battery life is better measured in total Ah discharged.

"LiFePo4 batteries have been shown to outlast Lead Acid/AGM battery cycles by up to 5 times."
True.

"Thirdly, generally, as LiFePo4 batteries can be taken down to a much lower SOC without adversely affecting their longevity,'
Deeper discharges have a minor effect on all the life of all batteries, including LA and LiFePO4.

LiFePO4 "can take a faster recharge"
True, but "you get more “usable” amps from a single charge. " does not necessarily follow.

"you can possibly get away with less number of batteries, or less battery capacity than would be required for AGM batteries."
Maybe, maybe not. You can get more Ah from a Li battery at high discharge rates due to less voltage sag, but at low discharge rates an Ah is an Ah, irrespective of what sort af battery it comes from and there is no problem taking LA up to 100% SOC and down to zero SOC, extremes which are best avoided with Li.
Cheers,
Peter
OKA196 motorhome

Hmmmm, everyone that gets to sell twice as many batteries if you take their advice.

Don't callenge me, challenge the Fullriver data.
I have found their data to be reliable.
Understand that one cycle to 30% DOD only delivers half the Ahs of one cycle to 60% DOD. This is why it is a mistake to think in terms of cycles to represent battery life.
If you multiply the number of cycles in the data by the Ah per cycle for various DODs, you will see there is no "cliff" to fall off in terms of total life. As DOD increases there is a slow and gradual reduction in total Ah delivered over the life of the battery.
Li follows a similar pattern.

Just incase you don't want to do it yourself, it looks something like this.... (based on a 100Ah battery)....
30% DOD = 1420 cycles x 30Ah per cycle = 42,600 Ah total life.
50% DOD = 650 cycles x 50Ah per cycle = 32,500 Ah total life.
70% DOD = 450 cycles x 70Ah per cycle = 31,500 Ah total life.
100% DOD = 280 cycles x 100Ah per cycle = 28,000 Ah total life.
(ps - 100% DOD is defined as 10.5V)
And of course, if you restrict the DOD, you need to carry more batteries (which weigh more and cost more, but need replacing less frequently).
And if you restrict your DOD to zero, they last forever. :) But they don't of course, because there is a time based deterioration as well. So there is a good arguement for working your batteries hard and replacing them more often. And the bloke (including me) who says "My batteries lasted for 9 years" means absolutely zip.
Cheers,
Peter
OKA196 motorhome

It is heartening to see that slowly this DoD vs lifespan myth is being exposed. Thank you. It is one of the most baffling claims I've come across and exists only in the 4x4 and camping industry. No other would have a bar of it.

Using that maths our 4 cell 300Ah LiFePO4 battery has delivered at least 270,000 Ah to power our fulltime motorhome travels and counting. The equivalent of 90,000 Ah/100Ah.
2400+ days unconnected to mains power and an average overnight (sunset-sunrise) draw according to our Victron data of 112Ah.

With no internal BMS to limit current it has also started our 3.9l turbo diesel engine probably a few thousand times over the last 7 years.

Continuing to use Ah as the measurement our annual November 30A capacity test showed that we now only have a 301Ah battery down from the original 315Ah.
Try that with a LA.

Sorry Pete, the link you provided doesn’t work. I have looked on line at the Full River website, and cannot find a chart that shows any details of their cycling capacity and longevity. If you or someone else could provide a usable link to the details you have outlined, I would be more than happy to compare for myself.

I have seen many people recommending Full River AGM batteries as being the best AGM batteries out there, and while I have no doubt they are a great battery, I am still of the opinion that a properly maintained LiFePo4 battery of the same size and capacity will outperform and outlast an AGM battery.

Macca.

.
Perhaps this one Macca?

Macca, SoC vs Cycle Life isn't hard to find on their web site.
http://resources.fullriverbattery.com/_imagecache/tnGraphsXY750/fullriver-battery/graphs/hc-series-cycle-life-vs-dod.png
I don't think Pete is attempting a like for like comparison re performance and longevity. The point he raises is valid concerning the myth that deeper discharge damages the battery. It's a worthwhile discussion since this is the kind of nonsense that leads people into making inferior decisions about their power setups.

.
Macca, I think this was Peter's link although I found it tricky to open.
However it seems to support the proposal that increased DOD reduces available "cycles".
And I can't figure what "capacity" refers to. P'raps I'll have my coffee and try again! lol

Scubadoo, I don't see anybody trying to make a performance comparison and just about everybody will acknowledge the benefits of LiFePO4 batteries. The choice, as pointed out earlier comes down to cost benefit. There are many like me who roll out their camper for the annual holidays and maybe the odd long weekend. Total number of nights comes to about 30 per year at most. Based on this usage I will be a very old man banging on St Peter's pearly gates with a walking frame in tow long before I've used even a tenth of a LiFePO4 and as such would be a fat waste of money. When the day comes that I want to do a lap or two then LA would be a fat waste of money. Horses for courses.

Hi Allan & croc,

Thanks for the updated links. If I am reading the DOD charts correctly, if you continue to discharge their batteries by 80%, which if I am correct is 20% SOC, then you will get around 1,000 cycles. That seems to confirm my original statement with regard to longevity.

It is my understanding that DOD is the opposite of SOC. That is 80% DOD is equal to 20% SOC.

Macca.

Your understanding of SoC and DoD are correct. DoD is simply ( 100 - SoC )%
You've missed the point somewhat on longevity though. I can discharge to 80% DoD 1000 times. If I only discharge to 40% then I need double the number of cycles to extract the same number of Ah from the battery. It's a zero sum game.

BBW (bloody backward website). Anyone else get annoyed that this website doesn't save comments being composed if you click away "accidentally"?

Very long story short without links. Paper I read (based on extensive testing) says the DoD/cycles/Ah delivered model for LFP batteries is simplistic, ie it isn't simple arithmetic even if you rely on sellers' info. Degradation occurs during use and with age, mostly the latter. For best results however the more a battery is used the better, irrespective of your DoD. Paper also confirmed that temps above 30 degrees can significantly reduce battery life.

Emptying out an LA/AGM battery may or may not be the bogey man we think but most graphs I've seen suggest it has a significant effect on battery life. Some show this more starkly than Allan's FullRiver graph above. On the other hand articles I've read on sulfation suggest that if you do discharge them totally then immediate recharging helps enormously.

A factor to be aware of with LA/AGM chemistry is that the higher the DISCHARGE RATE the less energy a battery will deliver. Discharge rates don't affect LFP energy delivery although as most know, lower cost LFPs with cheap BMS' and lighter wiring often have lower max continuous discharge rates (eg max 50A V 100+A) if that's important to you.

Bottom line: if you're a careful user generally stick to manu suggestions, if you're adventurous do what you want/need - mindful of the possible consequences. Those will obviously differ according to your wealth, situation when the battery "dies" (LFP is still useful at that point), etc

.
I would go along with all of that Bazooka..... including the frustration of losing a partly completed response!

There are so many variables occurring in lead-acid battery usage that make it difficult to predict expectations of life performance. Unquestionably, some factors such as very high sustained discharge and battery temperature are to be avoided, but yet we are acquainted with accounts of some people's batteries performing for much longer periods than most of us enjoy. There are so many variables in construction, storage, discharge rates and charging practice that it becomes difficult to evaluate sensibly.

Nonetheless, my experiences have reaffirmed the published advice of basic good practice which is not always in accord with common user beliefs. Certainly, don't put batteries on a concrete floor. LOL

I got some experience when at Woomera long ago. We had about 250 or more diverse lead acids (before AGM) which were used for a variety of duties on the Range. Some were used to drive cameras, supply electronic instrumentation and even for activating launcher functions including firing detonators in missile engines and boosters. Administration of these batteries was in my responsibility and I had two electrical assistants working full-time to ferry them around and recharge them. One benefit of these early batteries was that the interconnection between cells was exposed on the top of the case which permitted applying a battery tester to each cell in turn to gauge condition. It applied a current of about 50 Amps whilst indicating the voltage. When I arrived on the scene the charging regime was to put the batteries on charge at maximum (about 20 A) and "boil the guts out of them". By that I mean they were left on charge with the caps removed with electrolyte spraying out all over the battery top. I did institute some changes pronto!

On the matter of "cycling" I would instance that at Woomera we had several installations of 50v battery banks to provide uninterruptible supply of vital functions. One of these was dedicated to the Safety System which was employed to disintegrate an out of control missile. The batteries for this system were constantly on-line and on float charge. Soon after arrival I took it upon myself to test this battery bank and found it to have almost no capacity at all. Had it been called upon to act it would have undoubtedly fail with drastic consequence. This was my first encounter with batteries being constantly on float charge without any meaningful cycling and I have since experienced several more. This tends to support a case for regular cycling being beneficial for battery health.

And Bazooka, I especially liked your final paragraph.

You've pretty much covered it all Allan, esp the huge number of variables involved making generalisations about batteries almost redundant. This one I think holds true though: batteries are a bit like car engines. Lots of work (at the right temps) is generally better than little or intermittent work.

Must admit I wasn't aware of the energy drop off with LA/AGM at high current discharge rates until recently. Then again unlike others I've had no need to investigate that aspect of non-Li battery use.

Glad you checked the safety system batteries at Woomera. Might have been more than a tad embarrassing.

"A factor to be aware of with LA/AGM chemistry is that the higher the DISCHARGE RATE the less energy a battery will deliver."

Again, this is very misleading.
This is true if the high discharge rate is maintained until the battery is FLAT.
If on the otherhand, the high load is discontinued, there is no significant loss of total energy delivered and low demands can be met as they previously were.

At high discharge rates, the chemical reaction tha takes place inside the battery has difficulty keeping up with the delivery rate asked for. The result is that the voltage drops and the battery apears to be flatter than it realy is. When the high power requirement ceases, the chemical reaction catches up and voltage recovers. The "lost energy" returns.

Anyone who has cranked a car that wo't start until the battery is flat knows that if you wait a few minutes, the voltage recovers and you can crank again.
The battery contains a set amount of energy. That energy can not simply vanish.
Cheers,
Peter
OKA196 motorhome

.
Bazooka, this "drop-off" you refer to is identified as Peukert's Function which expresses the capacity of a battery in terms of the rate at which it is discharged. This effect applies to all batteries but to lithium less so than lead-acid.

There were other "embarrassing moments" at Woomera, believe me.

Yes, I am aware that it is called the Peukert effect.
That does not change the bottom line. Energy can not be destroyed. Wait a while and you will find that it is still there. :)
Cheers,
Peter
OKA196 motorhome

I presumed from my reading that capacity loss during high discharge wouldn't magically happen at 100% DoD Peter, but would occur as the chemistry changed. Is that incorrect? Doesn't really matter in the context of the discussion because some people were comparing available energy over the "expected" lifetime of batteries. The cycles x ah calcs at various DoDs is very simplistic, as graphs of LA/AGM batteries at different amp draws shows VERY clearly. AGM fares much better than flooded as you'd expect given their reputation as "deep cycle" batteries, if you get my drift.

Should have qualified that. DELIVERABLE capacity is lost during high discharge rates. So for example in the worst case (flooded LA), when you empty the battery at 50A you will only actually get about 20Ah from your 100Ah battery for that cycle. Hence the cycle x Ah calc is significantly compromised. Or have I (not for the first time) got the wrong end of that particular stick?

First, I am not an expert in battery technology, just interested. Challenges are in order :)

Second, a crank battery has more and thinner plates compared with a deep cycle battery. That lets the chemical reactions happen faster (so there is less voltage drop), but at the loss of some life in deep discharge conditions, as I understand it.
This is not to discriminate between Wet cells and AGMs. Either can be configured as crank or deep cycle.
From a 4WD perspective, I favor the use of AGMs for crank applications because the plates are held captive in the gel and are consequently more able to withstand the endless hours of corrugations that we sometimes endure while wet cells may physically fall apart internally under the same conditions.

Third. Yes, if yor discharge condition is maintained at a high level, the total power delivered (at that high rate) until it can not deliver any more will be significantly compromised. BUT that does not mean the power was lost. It can still be used afer the battery chemistry "catches up" or if the load is reduced.
So the bottom line is to not be afraid of regular high loads. They are what they are, but the battery will still continue to run your fridge afterwards.
Cheers,
Peter
OKA196 motorhome

.
Peter, Yes, the deprivation of deliverable battery capacity due to Peukert effect is, to a degree, temporary. But in real terms the battery energy is not available for use until the battery recovers which can be some hours, so is not exactly convenient. If it's not there when you need it then it ain't there, is it?

But there are further losses in deliverable capacity not attributed to the Peukert effect.
The inherent resistance of the battery causes IR loss with the passage of the high discharge current. This then appears as heat in the battery and is lost as electrical energy and hence battery capacity. This loss is not recoverable.

Incidentally, you may confuse some by identification of batteries as 'wet" versus "AGM". The accepted term is "flooded" as AGM batteries also contain liquid electrolyte but absorbed in a glass fibre mat. It is not a gel which is the term for another class of battery. I am not being pedantic.... the subject of batteries is confusing enough as it is.

Thanks Allan. No problem with any of that :)
Cheers,
Peter
OKA196 motorhome

"the subject of batteries is confusing enough as it is"
Ain't that the truth. And then along comes a new chemistry, or even a modified existing chemistry to change the rules again. Batteries ain't batteries Sol!

Batteries of the future set to be cheaper and better just by adding sugar

Australian battery company revolutionises 140-year-old technology

The rate of development of batteries (and other things electric and EV) is truly astounding.
We live in exciting times.
Cheers,
Peter
OKA196 motorhome

I went lithium for 2 reasons..1. Weight..camper was close to ATM (probably a bit over). 3 AGM,s at 37kg each is a lot of weight.
2. Far more constant 12.5 volt supply.

Having fridges run in 34-35 degree heat in the gulf meant I wanted good supply of at least 12.5 volts. Fridges, like batteries, dont like heat. With 3 x 120 a/h lithiums I have around 315 usable a/h.. With the AGM,S I had around 150 at best (50% equals around 12.0-12.1 volts). The lithium were only about $250 each dearer than the Fullriver 120 a/h batteries...which I sold for $200 each anyways!.

After 18 months of use Its lithium for me all the way. Cycles mean nothing to me, just like most other people, as I just want reliable power when I need it.