New Lithium battery

Submitted: Sunday, Nov 27, 2022 at 17:57
ThreadID: 145081 Views:11031 Replies:8 FollowUps:24
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The current system in my caravan consists of 2 x 80 watt solar panels, 2 x 100 Ah batteries, a Morning Star ProStar PSM30 solar regulator and a Cristec CPS2 16 amp charger. It is perfectly adequate for my needs! Now I need to replace the batteries and am thinking about getting the Itech 120X lithium ion battery which has a built in BMS. Is is possibly to simply swap in this new battery? The ProStar can be set to 14v, 14.15v or 14.4v. The Cristec can be set to 15.1v, 14.3v, 14.1v or 13.7v.
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Reply By: Bob Y. - Qld - Sunday, Nov 27, 2022 at 19:28

Sunday, Nov 27, 2022 at 19:28
Mikee, you could do much better than the Itech 120X, if you wish to upgrade to lithium batteries. Most, if not all, drop in lithium batteries have built in BMS! And the 120X is around 95Ah capacity, though the model number would have many believe it to be 120 Ah.
If your current set up suits what you need, then a new pair of AGM's would suit you, at a lower outlay.

Bob

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Can't remember most of it.

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Follow Up By: Genny - Sunday, Nov 27, 2022 at 19:49

Sunday, Nov 27, 2022 at 19:49
By the same logic any 120AH Agm isn't 120AH.
Itechworld's specs advise 10V after 105AH used. , and 4000 cycles at 80% depth of discharge.
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Follow Up By: Bazooka - Sunday, Nov 27, 2022 at 22:08

Sunday, Nov 27, 2022 at 22:08
ITECH120X 12V 120AH LITHIUM DEEP CYCLE BATTERY LIFEPO4
C20 Rating usable amps 10v: 105Ah

I don't understand how iTechWorld can advertise that battery as 120Ah when their specs appear to state it actually has 105Ah (most LFP charts I've seen show 0% capacity remaining at 10V). Can anyone explain?
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Mikee
I don't know whether your charger has LFP settings but if you are perfectly happy with your AGM setup what is the driver to go to LFP? They certainly have weight and discharge advantages but that does come at a cost, particularly if you have to buy a new charger. 14V cutoff with no float stage would probably be okay although most of the advice with LFP charging says you should refrain from trying to squeeze the last 1% of voltage into them. At rest a fully charged LFP should be around 13.8V. Battleborn (and many other reputable manufacturers) recommends NO float for its LFPs OR a float <13.6V.

A single 105Ah LFP has about 84Ah usable capacity IF you rIgidly stick to the 20% rule (ie only discharge to 20% of capacity). That's significantly less than your current AGM setup if you also stick to 50% DoD AGM "rule". Good LFPs can be completely discharged as you probably know, although that reduces life expectancy.
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Follow Up By: AlbyNSW - Monday, Nov 28, 2022 at 05:50

Monday, Nov 28, 2022 at 05:50
Bazooka I dont have that model but have the Itech 100ah slimline one. I don’t know if the other battery companies do the same but Itech told me that the stated figure is usable capacity so its acual capacity is more
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Follow Up By: Bazooka - Monday, Nov 28, 2022 at 10:27

Monday, Nov 28, 2022 at 10:27
Thanks Alby. Sounds like marketing ordure to me. Their specs are specific - at 10V they've measured a 105Ah discharge. According to the literature, there is no extra usable capacity if they're using cylindrical or prismatic cells - unless you want to quickly kill/reduce the life of the cells. Can't recall any tests or specs on pouch cells which dealt with "residual capacity" either.

I'm inclined to think this is technobabble aimed at convincing buyers who don't understand LFP technology. Irrespective, if there is some tiny capacity remaining (cells can go below 10V), but it is unavailable to the user then the advertising is patently misleading in my opinion. People often do their sums on power usage requirements based on advertised battery capacity, not some arbitrary lower number (12.5% less capacity in this case if my sums are right).

There's been plenty of commentary around ebay cheapie LFP capacity being overstated (same with solar panels) but if this is industry standard for reputable dealers then the industry needs a big shakeup.
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Follow Up By: Member - Bigfish - Wednesday, Nov 30, 2022 at 10:46

Wednesday, Nov 30, 2022 at 10:46
I,ve got 3 ITech 120...The most you will get of useable power (12.4 volts ) is 95 a/h. I,ve tested 3 other 120 ITechs mates have and all peak out at around 95 a/h. At around 100a/h your down to low 11,s in volts output. I also have a Renogy 100 smart lithium. I can get a full 100 a/h at 12.4 volts from it....great battery and wouldnt hesitate to buy again.

I dont think their advertising is any more wrong than the claims from AGM batteries, towing capacity of vehicles or the promises of our beloved politicians..........
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Follow Up By: Bazooka - Wednesday, Nov 30, 2022 at 11:52

Wednesday, Nov 30, 2022 at 11:52
Nothing wrong with their 105Ah claim at 10V as far as I'm concerned BF, it's the nominal Ah when the battery is for practical purposes depleted. Hence the battery SHOULD be properly labelled as 105Ah.

10V BMS cutout is quite common. Users can choose whatever voltage limits they want above that according to their needs - the most often quoted being ~12.9V or 80% DoD. The 120Ah claim is "extravagant optimism", or as some/most? might say, complete bollocks.

I know your last par was sarcasm. In the same vein I'd like to be your (and iTechWorld's) butcher, fuel and energy provider, employer..... :-)
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Follow Up By: Member - Bigfish - Wednesday, Nov 30, 2022 at 12:13

Wednesday, Nov 30, 2022 at 12:13
Bazooka posted:
Nothing wrong with their 105Ah claim at 10V as far as I'm concerned BF, it's the nominal Ah when the battery is for practical purposes depleted. Hence the battery SHOULD be properly labelled as 105Ah.

I disagree Bazooka . At 10 volts I don't know of any fridge, laptop or tablet that will run. 10 volts is neither usable or of any point. I,ve not seen one test that gave a result of 105 a/h while providing at least 12 volts. I,ve tested 7 of them and all give around 95a/h at 12 volts before suddenly dropping to high 10,s and shutting down. In my opinion all batteries should show useable amp hours at a minimum of 12 volts. Like most other things offered to the consumer...bullshit reigns supreme.
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Follow Up By: Peter_n_Margaret - Wednesday, Nov 30, 2022 at 12:25

Wednesday, Nov 30, 2022 at 12:25
A standard BD35 Danfoss compressor will run down to 10.4V, but can be set to run down to 9.6V.
Cheers,
Peter
OKA196 motorhome
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Follow Up By: Member - Bigfish - Wednesday, Nov 30, 2022 at 12:37

Wednesday, Nov 30, 2022 at 12:37
Might be able to run at that voltage but would not be very efficient. Would struggle on a warm day here in the tropics.. Point was that 12 volts + is a very efficient voltage at which to run appliances and gadgets. 10 volts is not.
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Follow Up By: Bazooka - Wednesday, Nov 30, 2022 at 12:55

Wednesday, Nov 30, 2022 at 12:55
Battery's not consuming like those devices though BF. It's simply delivering available energy (not much), which may or may not be adequate to power some things but will keep lights going and devices charging for example. It will keep delivering amps until the BMS disconnects at 10V (as you and most know).

In the past I've seen quite a few specs which agree with your (and my) preference for higher voltage cutout though. 10V is the absolute minimum. I've also seen specs for cheapies which CLAIM (NB) an even lower cutoff. May have been pouch cells, may have been "transcription error". Without testing we wouldn't know. Ditto with temperature cutouts. Prowse and others have found batteries with claimed temp cutouts which didn't even have a temp sensor.
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Reply By: Phil G - Monday, Nov 28, 2022 at 07:21

Monday, Nov 28, 2022 at 07:21
The main issues with your chargers are that they will have a higher float voltage than what is desirable for a Lithium battery (No float at all or a low float voltage of 13.5V).
If you are going to spend those dollars on a Lithium battery I'd suggest at a minimum you should upgrade the solar controller to a quality unit like the Victron. They are not that expensive.

And if you want a good battery at a great price can I suggest getting the Renogy 100Ah with Bluetooth - they are 20% off via Ebay until 30/11/22 - will cost you $618 I have fitted a couple for friends and they deliver a full 100Ah and the bluetooth app works well to give you an accurate state of charge (without having to install a shunt monitor).
I have measured other cheap ($400-$500) Lithium and while they work well they are often 10-15% less than stated capacity.
AnswerID: 642188

Follow Up By: Batt's - Tuesday, Nov 29, 2022 at 18:12

Tuesday, Nov 29, 2022 at 18:12
I just had a Renogy 170ah fail and replaced just over 12 months old. The frustrating thing is they have no phone number no after hours or weekend contact so it all drags out and takes time having to raise a ticket on thier web site to start a discussion to explain the issue then wait for a response which could take days. In my case they just took my word for it the $1,200 battery was no good as they said they have no way of testing it I had to pay $160 odd for the time outside the 12 months warranty. The new one is working fine for now but I would go with a company that is easier to contact and more knowledgeable about their products or have the ability to test items or organise an eleco to do so.
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Follow Up By: Bazooka - Wednesday, Nov 30, 2022 at 00:49

Wednesday, Nov 30, 2022 at 00:49
I'd have thought statutory warranty on a "quality" LFP should be around 3 years Batts unless you've somehow miraculously managed to clock up 2000 cycles in a year ! Given the rigmarole involved with that argument (statutory warranty usually trumps seller warranty) and the to-ing and fro-ing you've already endured I guess $160 isn't a bad outcome though.

Renogy seems to get decent reviews OS but I wouldn't consider them for the reasons you've mentioned previously. No office, no tech support, iirc they don't even have an ABN.
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Follow Up By: AlbyNSW - Wednesday, Nov 30, 2022 at 07:54

Wednesday, Nov 30, 2022 at 07:54
Having a physical address and a phone number has become a bit of a mantra for me when buying products online.
I had a bit of an installation issue with one of the better known suppliers products and of course couldn’t speak to them but had to raise a ticket style enquiry which they responded to three days later. That is no good if you are on the road and have an issue you need to deal with.
I gave them a serve over it and told them I wouldn’t be buying any more of their products as a result
I did get a follow up call from management about my dissatisfaction so it was good that the message went up the line.
There are some really good online retailers to deal with that have excellent support which deserve the business over these others
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FollowupID: 921684

Follow Up By: Banjo (WA) - Wednesday, Nov 30, 2022 at 09:41

Wednesday, Nov 30, 2022 at 09:41
Batts.
So Renogy replaced the battery that was outside warranty without any drama and you're still not happy?
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Follow Up By: Batt's - Wednesday, Nov 30, 2022 at 10:25

Wednesday, Nov 30, 2022 at 10:25
Pro-rata warranty within 12 months no charge after that it's added up by the month to get the cost so it's not too bad. Didn't say I wasn't happy just explaining the process involved which was unexpected. It was still was under warranty .
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Follow Up By: Bazooka - Wednesday, Nov 30, 2022 at 11:48

Wednesday, Nov 30, 2022 at 11:48
Ah, so it's probably a 5Y pro-rata warranty then Batt's? One way of getting around statutory warranty.
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Reply By: Member - McLaren3030 - Monday, Nov 28, 2022 at 07:31

Monday, Nov 28, 2022 at 07:31
Hi Mikee5,

I would humbly suggest that for either set up, (LiFePo4 or AGM), you a have less than half of what you should have in solar capacity, for off grid camping. A good rule of thumb is that for every battery amp you have, you need double the watts of solar capacity. So, for your current battery capacity of 200 amps, you should really have 400 watts of solar capacity. If you are constantly moving every day, and only staying in one spot overnight, you can get away with less solar capacity, as you are continuously topping up the batteries when driving. However, if sitting stationary for several days, your batteries will not fully recover during the day.

As far as replacement batteries are concerned, again, it depends on how you camp, and what your electrical requirements are. If only stopping overnight, and not looking to save on weight, AGM’s will do the job. If however, you are looking to save weight, or looking at staying stationary in one spot for several days, particularly if you have a compressor fridge, you will benefit from swapping over to LiFePo4 batteries. They can be discharged deeper, and with enough solar capacity, will recharge faster. Of course your solar panels need to be in full sun all day.

Every LiFePo4 battery will benefit from a dedicated LiFePo4 profile charger.

Macca.
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Follow Up By: Mikee5 - Monday, Nov 28, 2022 at 07:42

Monday, Nov 28, 2022 at 07:42
Your comment does not gel with my experience over17 years of owning this caravan with this configuration. I am frugal with power, the compressor fridge works fine and my batteries are usually full by sunset. I live and camp in Queensland. I carry a Honda generator but in fact have never used it to recharge, only for air conditioning. With the helpful comments here, I am probably going to replace like with like and keep on camping.
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Follow Up By: Member - McLaren3030 - Monday, Nov 28, 2022 at 07:46

Monday, Nov 28, 2022 at 07:46
Your choice of course Mike, however, my experience with off grid camping staying stationary for several weeks at a time is different to yours. It is also what is recommended by most 12 volt “experts”.

Macca.
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Follow Up By: Peter_n_Margaret - Monday, Nov 28, 2022 at 08:50

Monday, Nov 28, 2022 at 08:50
Solar (charging) requirement is determined by energy consumption, not by storage capacity.
Then again, the batteries only need to supply energy when the solar is not providing it directly, so the more solar you have the lower the storage (battery) requirement is.
Cheers,
Peter
OKA196 motorhome
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Reply By: qldcamper - Monday, Nov 28, 2022 at 09:18

Monday, Nov 28, 2022 at 09:18
If your going to own the van for 11 years and deeply cycle the batteries every day then LFP seems the most economic way to go.
As said before if your AGMs are serving you well stick with them.
AnswerID: 642192

Reply By: Gronk - Tuesday, Nov 29, 2022 at 11:59

Tuesday, Nov 29, 2022 at 11:59
In reply to your original question, stick with AGM’s.
If you go with lithium, your chargers aren’t compatible.
If you have the room, go up to 120 a/h batts and increase your solar to 3 x 80W.

On a nice sunny day, I like to have the batts on float by midday.
AnswerID: 642196

Reply By: mynance - Tuesday, Nov 29, 2022 at 16:53

Tuesday, Nov 29, 2022 at 16:53
https://voltx.com.au/products/voltx-12v-200ah-basic

These have excellent reviews and would of been my choice except needed one in a hurry so went and bought off the shelf at RTM
AnswerID: 642199

Follow Up By: Bazooka - Wednesday, Nov 30, 2022 at 00:55

Wednesday, Nov 30, 2022 at 00:55
Voltx teardown
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FollowupID: 921683

Follow Up By: Member - Bigfish - Wednesday, Nov 30, 2022 at 11:00

Wednesday, Nov 30, 2022 at 11:00
Like all cheap lithium...the cells are often 2nd grade, the BMS can be an elcheapo and as the reviewer says...it can be hit and miss as to whether you get a good battery..
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FollowupID: 921688

Follow Up By: mynance - Wednesday, Nov 30, 2022 at 11:35

Wednesday, Nov 30, 2022 at 11:35
Review better than Enerdrive on Product reviews web site.
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Follow Up By: Bazooka - Wednesday, Nov 30, 2022 at 12:00

Wednesday, Nov 30, 2022 at 12:00
Naughty. As far as I can see there are a total of 4 Enerdrive reviews. A cynic might think you're associated with VoltX :-)
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FollowupID: 921693

Follow Up By: mynance - Wednesday, Nov 30, 2022 at 12:09

Wednesday, Nov 30, 2022 at 12:09
Don't even own one ended up buying a Powertec from RTM
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FollowupID: 921694

Reply By: Member - LeighW - Saturday, Dec 03, 2022 at 14:46

Saturday, Dec 03, 2022 at 14:46
Been running Lithiums with a variety of chargers for many years with no issues. Any charger with an AGM or GEL setting is generally ok. GEL settings on the chargers I have with a specific Lithium profile are the same as the LIthium profile.

Personnally I generally use the power supply mode on my A/C chargers to charge the batteries most of the time. Occassionally will charge using the AGM profile to let the cell balancers do their thing.

On the solar and DCDC even though they have Lithium profiles I prefer to use the user setting the charge voltage to around 14.4V for cyclic charging ie same as AGM profile. Batteries around 8 years old and still test above their rated capacity.

Car Lithium is charged directly off the alternator and no issues with it either. Charging can be as simply or as complex as you want it to be.

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AnswerID: 642224

Reply By: Croc099 - Wednesday, Dec 07, 2022 at 19:46

Wednesday, Dec 07, 2022 at 19:46
Going from 200Ah size to 120Ah might leave you a bit short if it happens to rain for a day or two.
AnswerID: 642266

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