Glow plug breakage

Submitted: Saturday, Oct 14, 2023 at 12:53
ThreadID: 146392 Views:3432 Replies:10 FollowUps:24
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Just seeking some advice from those with diesel engine experience!

Put a deposit on a second hand LandCruiser and turns out during the mechanical checks by the dealer as far as I can work out during a compression test the glow plug or part the equipment has broken into the cylinder - a specialist had been called in to remove etc

Is there any ongoing concerns if this has all been done properly? Anything to look out for?

Know the car hasn't been started since.

Many thanks

Jesse
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Reply By: RMD - Saturday, Oct 14, 2023 at 14:55

Saturday, Oct 14, 2023 at 14:55
Tumby
If a compression test has been performed, then the pistons have travelled their full upward, toward the head, ie TDC.
Since there is very little clearance between piston and head on a diesel, any foreign objects will be either broken or imbedded into piston crown or cylinder head. If only small bits, it may exit through the exhaust valves if it has been started. Only way to see, is to remove the injector and inspect the piston with a small dia bore scope. ie, digital image device. That won't tell you if the valves have been damaged and if the rubbish/broken piece isn't there it could have bent one of the valves, and it is that which is not sealing on it's seat and causing compression loss. If so it is head OFF to repair it all.

A few years ago I had to diagnose the a John Deere tractor. An object had entered through the inlet valve, a mechanics fault, and broke the nozzle of the injector. Only dribble was injected and no spray of diesel, causing a misfire every time and on a couple of other cylinders because of it being a rotary pump.
If a dealer is repairing it, they may only do the minimum to make it seem ok, so be careful.

To me, it has to have the head off and make sure all components are serviceable and fit for duty.
If it was OK beforehand, then the compression test man has allowed something to enter the cylinder.

Sometimes the offending piece of material gets stuck between an exhaust valve and it's seat and simply stays there.
The dealer should know if one of the glow plug ends is missing when they removed it. That will not come out through the glow plug hole and might be able to be removed through the injector hole, if not then head off.
AnswerID: 644610

Follow Up By: TumbyTourers - Saturday, Oct 14, 2023 at 16:22

Saturday, Oct 14, 2023 at 16:22
Thanks for the response RMD

Sounds more like a piece from the compression testing equipment from the conversation I had (I have exactly zero experience owning a diesel so learning on the fly).

I guess I am going to need to ask some questions and make a decision on this - but as you say my concern is they will do the bare minimum to get it driving. Sounds like they had someone come out with the scope or similar.

Will the damage show up relatively quickly or could it take a long time to be noticed? (Just thinking of a period of cover for the repairs etc)

Again all your information is appreciated and taken on board
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Follow Up By: RMD - Saturday, Oct 14, 2023 at 17:37

Saturday, Oct 14, 2023 at 17:37
I presume the comp test was done via an adapter screwed into the glow plug hole. Possibly the deteriorated glow plug end has refused to pass through the carbon ring around it and broken off and it is now in the cylinder.
Not good, but it still won't come out of the glow pug hole. I can't see how a piece of test equipment would have a propensity to drop into the hole. Poor management if so.
If the piece is in the piston recess AND they tested compression, possibly no harm YET. But they can't start it otherwise it will jump about and smash injector or possibly bend valves. It might have already done that during the comp test. It has to come out before further tests or running is done.

You definitely want to know and see yourself, the test pressure readings and perhaps get someone else to view them and gauge engine compression condition. A comp test after the recovery work would be wise.
Ask them if they added some oil to the cylinders for the test. It can become fuel and fire, if light oil if thin enough, but anything added in there will mask poor compression lost past rings. I don't know what they did. Ask those questions so they know you know.
Which engine type is it? 1HZ?

You initially mentioned broken glow plug and also mention compression test gear components. They should know exactly what is in there if genuine about it all. No question about it!
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Follow Up By: TumbyTourers - Saturday, Oct 14, 2023 at 19:46

Saturday, Oct 14, 2023 at 19:46
Agree - a lot of follow up questions to be asked.

Confusion of what has happened is mostly due to me not having much idea about the process. But I'm sure he said something about the equipment failing during the test - only through some quick reading and your response that I even knew the glow plugs were removed for the test - but will be confirming on Monday.

It's the 200 series so the VDJ engine - so if that changes anything as well.

But I'll try get a full report of what's happened next week and go from there
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Follow Up By: Nomadic Navara - Wednesday, Oct 18, 2023 at 13:17

Wednesday, Oct 18, 2023 at 13:17
The article in Wikipedia uses VDJ200 as the vehicle model number for the Land Cruiser 200. The diesel engine is the 4.5 L 1VD-FTV turbocharged V8 or 1VD for short.

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Reply By: Peter_n_Margaret - Saturday, Oct 14, 2023 at 17:53

Saturday, Oct 14, 2023 at 17:53
If the mechanic is at fault he will be covered by insurance for accidents like this and getting a proper appraisal and repair (if required) should be no problem at all.
Speaking from experience from 40 years ago when the wing nut from the air cleaner fell off and went into the engine of a 6 cylinder Cortina we had during a dyno tune (at red line RPM). It bent a valve, punched a hole in the piston and cracked the block. The motor was completely rebuilt to new condition.
Cheers,
Peter
OKA196 motorhome
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Follow Up By: RMD - Saturday, Oct 14, 2023 at 20:05

Saturday, Oct 14, 2023 at 20:05
Peter.
How do you rebuild a cracked block to new condition? New block perhaps?
The wing nut should have been on the outside of the air cleaner in all I have seen! ie Falcon engine.
If the wing nut was on the carby bolt with air cleaner removed, then the tester bloke was the issue.
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Follow Up By: Peter_n_Margaret - Saturday, Oct 14, 2023 at 20:22

Saturday, Oct 14, 2023 at 20:22
The block was sleaved. Was never an issue from that moment on.
Yes, the air cleaner was removed and the wing nut was replaced.
Cheers,
Peter
OKA196 motorhome
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Reply By: Member - Duncan2H - Monday, Oct 16, 2023 at 06:56

Monday, Oct 16, 2023 at 06:56
I'd be walking away from this one.. its likely the head will need to come off.
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Reply By: RMD - Monday, Oct 16, 2023 at 11:53

Monday, Oct 16, 2023 at 11:53
Tumby Jesse
Now we find it is a V8 LC and anything dropped into the cylinder will fall to one side if gravity is working in that area. So, the item will be at one side. I would like to know how they are going to get it out from over one side. If a 6 cylinder it would be simpler because the piston will be horizontal.
Because it is a V8, the dealer WILL NOT BE WANTING to remove the cylinder head at all costs, mainly due to costs.

A refund might be a prudent decision as above.
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Follow Up By: Member - McLaren3030 - Monday, Oct 16, 2023 at 17:08

Monday, Oct 16, 2023 at 17:08
Hi RMD,

Wouldn’t the pistons in a 6 cylinder engine be vertical, not horizontal?

Macca.
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Follow Up By: greybeard - Monday, Oct 16, 2023 at 18:18

Monday, Oct 16, 2023 at 18:18
It might be having a nap. Or someone might have left a couple of words out and forgot to mention top of the piston.
Who knows, I'll be sleeping just like a V8, at least that's what my missus reckons I sound like ;)
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Follow Up By: RMD - Tuesday, Oct 17, 2023 at 07:20

Tuesday, Oct 17, 2023 at 07:20
Macca

NO! I assumed , because we ARE talking about the thing/article above the piston the reference to horizontal or on an angle, ie, V8, is referring to the top of the piston, not it's attitude in the cylinder. A mechanical oriented type person would be in tune with that discussion.
A piston is always vertical in it's cylinder even in a V8 and in a radial engine or boxer type. The issue id te relationship of the piston surface and it's attitude with respect to gravity, 'cos that is where you will be trying to get the broken bit from. In a SIX it may be in the piston recess if it has one of any size. In the V8 it will be against the cylinder wall and lowest curve point.
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Reply By: Andrew L - Tuesday, Oct 17, 2023 at 10:06

Tuesday, Oct 17, 2023 at 10:06
The breakage points to a larger problem, does this 1hz have a turbo? If it does, walk away, it has had lots of heat errode that glow plug, and thats not good. It will have been starting on 5 cylinders for a while, unless its cheap enough to factor in a rebuild, at least you know why its been traded
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Follow Up By: TumbyTourers - Tuesday, Oct 17, 2023 at 11:04

Tuesday, Oct 17, 2023 at 11:04
200 series - so the VDJ.

And described as an accident during testing in the workshop. Otherwise immaculate service history (to the point of handwritten notes on all services and any extra work all noted down) and running perfectly prior to the checks. So reasonable level of confidence between pre inspections and evidence available it wasn't a motor issue.
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Follow Up By: RMD - Tuesday, Oct 17, 2023 at 12:56

Tuesday, Oct 17, 2023 at 12:56
Tumby Jesse
Please do not place any importance on immaculate service history! It could be true but rarely is and the diligence in completing service history is what dealers do, it is the actual service performed on the vehicle which is important and some of it may have never happened, but it says it was done in the book.
Not Toyota, but a Mazda dealer near me, to fix sat nav and radio issues, stated they changed the Aerial, aerial coax lead and reprogrammed the head unit and replaced other electrical related components under the dash. Same problems. Owner asked selling dealer to check , and a Vin number check revealed NO work done under warranty for that vehicle or parts ordered or fitted either. All recorded in the book though and claimed by the local dealer. Books and dealer recording in them prove nothing. It could all be true of course. Yeah right!
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Follow Up By: TumbyTourers - Thursday, Oct 19, 2023 at 18:07

Thursday, Oct 19, 2023 at 18:07
See the post below with the report - but basically saying they believed it was already broken prior to removal.....so possibly some underlying problem? What could be the cause?
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Reply By: Beatle Bayly - Tuesday, Oct 17, 2023 at 20:45

Tuesday, Oct 17, 2023 at 20:45
VDJ engine doesn't have glow plugs.

Are you sure anything actually fell into the cylinder, or did the compression tool just snap off in the head?
AnswerID: 644625

Follow Up By: RMD - Tuesday, Oct 17, 2023 at 21:19

Tuesday, Oct 17, 2023 at 21:19
Spare parts listings show 8 glow plugs to suit VDJ200 series engines! If the VDJ doesn't have them why is it you can buy them for that engine?
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Follow Up By: Andrew L - Thursday, Oct 19, 2023 at 12:54

Thursday, Oct 19, 2023 at 12:54
yes to glow plugs, which are removed for a comp test, never need replacing as the motor is designed for turbos, most probably their equipment has snapped in the head, question though is why were they doing this? nota normal thing to check unless there is other issues
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Follow Up By: RMD - Thursday, Oct 19, 2023 at 14:08

Thursday, Oct 19, 2023 at 14:08
Andrew L
Being a turbo doesn't preclude the need to ever replace the glowplugs! How does being a turbo change the need?

Beatle B does say it doesn't have glowplugs, but how does the dealer test compression if no glow plugs????
Perhaps the dealer removed all 8 injectors, yeah right, sure thing.
Beatle. If it is doesn't have glowplugs and the dealer defintiey isn't going to remove the injectors, how did they get any pressure access to each cylinder? Pauline says, PLEASE EXPLAIN!
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Reply By: TumbyTourers - Thursday, Oct 19, 2023 at 18:02

Thursday, Oct 19, 2023 at 18:02


Attached is the report (that has been like pulling teeth to get)

Firstly nil information on the methods used to remove the broken tip.

But more importantly blaming it as already broken prior to removal - what could cause the tip of a glow plug to be broken?

Thanks for coming along on this journey!
AnswerID: 644629

Follow Up By: RMD - Thursday, Oct 19, 2023 at 19:51

Thursday, Oct 19, 2023 at 19:51
Tumby
Glow plugs are a metal allow with a heater inside. They are slim at the end and therefore less robust than the thicker upper. Over time and repeated heating the !ay crack and the end comes off. It may be small pieces or all in one. If it happened a while ago and the piston has most likely hit it, the piece may have disintegrated and being crispy the bits eventually, pretty smartly, will be carried out the exhaust post during exhaust. If there is no damage and compressions are ok then it seems ok.
However, ALL GLOW PLUGS should be immediately be replaced to ensure reliability and engine life and proper cold starting. If buying from the dealer, SURELY they have replaced ALL glow plugs. If not more glow plug problems will surface soon. Hope this point of view allows a wise decision to be arrived at.
PS. I have replaced glow plug, rebuilt diesel engines on heavy equipment and find some comments in this thread unhelpful, non informative and erroneous and dismissive at times.
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Follow Up By: TumbyTourers - Thursday, Oct 19, 2023 at 20:13

Thursday, Oct 19, 2023 at 20:13
Unfortunately it has reached a point that the serviceability of the car has become secondary - the conduct of the sales team has reached a point that I will be pulling out regardless - potential vehicle problems will just be the easy door out.

Reached a head today with a fourth attempt to force a pick up date without supplying any information requested (it's been 4 days for the above literary masterpiece) and are still avoiding any discussion on warranty. Final straw tonight when he's caught himself in an obvious lie - so only dealing with the car yard forward will be with his manager to discuss the situation. Pretty frustrated and tired of it tonight!

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Follow Up By: TumbyTourers - Thursday, Oct 19, 2023 at 20:27

Thursday, Oct 19, 2023 at 20:27
And as above - it would seem no other plugs replaced. Although not exactly full of information.
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Follow Up By: RMD - Thursday, Oct 19, 2023 at 21:26

Thursday, Oct 19, 2023 at 21:26
Tumby.
Sound decision.
The dealer should replace ALL glowplugs as a matter of mechanical and business integrity, and normal practice, which seems to be sadly lacking.
I could not see how anything apart from small chips could be retrieved from the cylinder through the small glowplug stem tip hole. Any inspection IF actually done, has to be with a very small dia wide view bore scope, ie, rifle barrel scope. They didn't prove that did they!
Make sure you have the VIN and rego of it so you can avoid it if looking at other similar vehicles. I have personal experience with dealers prepared to go to great lengths to hide work done and whole vehicles from appearing locally, ie, sending from Wagga to Tasmania to disappear the vehicle to another registration system to avoid any flags. They have a network of people prepared to hide and falsify info even at Consumer investigation level.
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Reply By: Member - peter g28 - Thursday, Oct 19, 2023 at 20:55

Thursday, Oct 19, 2023 at 20:55
Quote:"Attached is the report (that has been like pulling teeth to get)"

It's quite simple...
Don't Walk, Run..and don't look back because with a dealer attitude like this...they will throw you under the bus the first opportunity they get..
Keep your hard earned in the pocket, for there will be a few 200 Landcruisers floating around as owners will be looking to purchase a 300..(why? I do not know)..
AnswerID: 644630

Follow Up By: TumbyTourers - Thursday, Oct 19, 2023 at 21:01

Thursday, Oct 19, 2023 at 21:01
Be dropping a grenade on the way out the door if I have my way.....

But yes plenty more (big) fish in the sea - it was a solid car and the price was fair, not amazing. So no regrets on doing catch and release on this one.
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Reply By: TumbyTourers - Friday, Oct 20, 2023 at 18:00

Friday, Oct 20, 2023 at 18:00
Took the high road and politely put my views forward by email this morning - basically radio silence since from the same dealer who text 3 times to see if I had received an email yesterday afternoon.

An off topic question but being a GLX model it was registered for 8 seats, but has drawers in the back currently. Nothing has ever been mentioned about the rear seats being supplied. If they have been silly enough to change the registration from QLD to NSW without getting a modification certificate would this make the safety certificate invalid? Out of interest would that have become a possible issue if I'd try to sell the vehicle down the line and not had the seats? (Yes I know I could buy them but in theory)
AnswerID: 644633

Follow Up By: RMD - Friday, Oct 20, 2023 at 19:16

Friday, Oct 20, 2023 at 19:16
Tumby.
That sort of dealer manipulation and evading and non notified situations is EXACTLY the sort of situations I was alluding to with reference to dealers in a previous post. I wonder where your dealer is based! Perhaps same dealer network I had experience with. They were vast across NSW!
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Follow Up By: TumbyTourers - Saturday, Oct 21, 2023 at 05:48

Saturday, Oct 21, 2023 at 05:48
Just to keep the eyes rolling - I used the vin to find the new registration online and it's been registered as the petrol variant. On its own a simple mistake but really starts to look bad when compounded with everything else!
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Follow Up By: Member - McLaren3030 - Saturday, Oct 21, 2023 at 06:41

Saturday, Oct 21, 2023 at 06:41
Hi Tumby,

My Brother-in-Law here in Victoria had to re register a 200 Series LC GXL from his Sisters name into his name after she passed away. He had taken the rear seats out years before, and when he went to get a roadworthy certificate, the certifying mechanic advised him it had to have the rear seats in place as it was registered as a seven seater. Not only did the seats have to be in place, but they had to have their head rests in place also.

Fortunately the vehicle did not have draws and he had the seats so it was only a matter of reinstalling them to get the roadworthy passed and the registration changed into his name. Funnily enough, it did not have to have a spare wheel to pass a roadworthy.

It sounds like whoever is responsible for the roadworthy certification and reregistering vehicles at that particular dealership does not really know what the regulations are.

Macca
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Follow Up By: RMD - Saturday, Oct 21, 2023 at 08:25

Saturday, Oct 21, 2023 at 08:25
The vehicle I assisted with for a Consumer affairs event, had been sold NEW but was not the vehicle the buyer thought they were getting, Same colour, but not same specs and it even had the wrong handbook which was why the head unit code didn't work. All started because the dealer had fitted all required extras to the wrong vehicle and it snowballed from there. For fear of losing money they said nothing. A chassis fault brought it all to light and found it had been been previously registered for two days, then changed to another vehicle id in rego system. All ended with a $39000 refund. The shonky and illegal things the dealer did would surprise everyone because you wouldn't think they would or could even think that way or be prepared to do it. They did!
The finance company innocently involved, were aghast that they had been fed wrong vehicle info by dealer to release a $42000 payment for the vehicle.
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Reply By: TumbyTourers - Wednesday, Nov 01, 2023 at 18:05

Wednesday, Nov 01, 2023 at 18:05
Finally reached a resolution and getting the deposit returned. Thanks for the advice given - avoid a 2010 LandCruiser GLX being sold in Tweed Heads at the Toyota dealer! ??

The search continues!??
AnswerID: 644666

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