slander and propergander

Submitted: Tuesday, Jul 27, 2004 at 18:39
ThreadID: 15065 Views:2559 Replies:11 FollowUps:9
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Is that spelling right, ah well...who cares. I would like to discuss the lack of respect 4wd stores have for A:Their competition. B:Themselves C:ME!!!

I shall also use this opportuniy to get REAL feedback, not just he WHO GIVES ME THE BIGGEST FREAKIN MARGIN FEEDBACK!!!

I have, in the past 48 hours, been enquiring about upgrading my suspension. Now doing this really hurts me coz the suspension I have in my car is quite new. The Truck used to be an Ambulance, and has top quality everything added to it. However, when changing the suspension, they softened the ride for the patients. Now it's fine when just cruisen for a day. But when packed with 180l fuel, 140l water, and everything else, it starts to sag a bit. Add some nice step ups to the equation and.... x/y=bottom out!

So with nice H.D. Koni shockies already on the car, I set about what I imagined to be,the relatively inexpensive exercise of replacing the springs.

This is where it gets interesting, the Koni back shocks are equivalant to Factory, and the Front have 20mm extra travel.

SO...My question is...If I want to get a bit of a lift...just 50mm from normal, will these factory, and 20mm more than factory shocks suffice, or do I need to dig deeper into my pockets and come up with some long travel shocks.

This is where my whinge begins...I have called 5 different 4wd shops and I have, pretty much 5 different answers. They all bagged out what the others had said and told me that their oppositions product would fall apart after 10 mins. I am now rather annoyed and confused.

Coz I will be doing a year long trip in 5 mths, I need H.D springs on there, but I also want wheel travel and capability.

Here's what i came up with, rockcrawler rear springs, Front KING springs, and if need be...Tough Dog 45mm bore adjustable Foam Cells.

I must say, that if you've read this far, then I already love you...If you'd like to gain my adoration, then your feedback is appreciated.

Cheers PEEPS!!!

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Reply By: Member - Sparkie (QLD) - Tuesday, Jul 27, 2004 at 18:59

Tuesday, Jul 27, 2004 at 18:59
I had a similar deal with a store which specialises in 4WD's.
Now this is a good store and they give great service in what they do but they push certain products and it costs lotsa moolah in the end.
So I went to a place which luckily for me specialise in steering and suspension.
He didnt have a monopoly on springs or shocks and sources his gear freely if it is what you want.
I realise that you may not have that option but maybe someone may know someone in your area so ask the question asking someone who could recomend a store in your area.
If you lived in Bundaberg I would know exactly who I would recomend.
I cannot tell you what constitutes good spring or shocks so I will leave it up to the other forumites.

Sparkie(IE not Y) ;-)

AnswerID: 69929

Reply By: member-skippyking - Tuesday, Jul 27, 2004 at 19:01

Tuesday, Jul 27, 2004 at 19:01
And guess what'll get a whole heap of different opinions here and anywhere else. ;~))

Some will say such and such is $h!t and the one I use is better, and others will say this is good and be helpful without bagging the others.

Like you I hate the way the shops bag each others product. It makes you want to give up. So, good luck, hope you find the answer you're looking for and sometimes you'll find you have already answered the question yourself. ;~)

Sorry I can't help

AnswerID: 69930

Reply By: pshowell - Tuesday, Jul 27, 2004 at 19:17

Tuesday, Jul 27, 2004 at 19:17
You are never going to be able to get a straight answer from a store who is only intrested in selling their product regardless of whether it is any good. So just do a comparison between what the stores are offering and what you budget and needs are

Cheers Patty
AnswerID: 69935

Reply By: GOB & denny vic member - Tuesday, Jul 27, 2004 at 19:30

Tuesday, Jul 27, 2004 at 19:30
what area are you in waveslave
i had mine done inkeysborough melbourne on the old gq people did a good job and it travelled a lot of rough ks
i wish i was doing as many in the gu but it will happen

AnswerID: 69936

Reply By: GO_OFFROAD - Tuesday, Jul 27, 2004 at 19:35

Tuesday, Jul 27, 2004 at 19:35
Can you please let us know exactly which vehicle you have, and what part no items it is currently fitted with, if you have that info?

To work out what you require you need to go to a weigh bridge, weigh the car total, and then a front axle and rear axle weight.

With this information you will be able to have the Koni shocks valved to suit your requirements, by a Koni reseller/dealer [best shock you can use for an overlaoded vehicle IMHO] and you will be able to speak with people who sell springs about what spring rate you will require, and the type of work you will do with the vehicle.

Try staying away from the retail store, and speak with someone who runs tours, and does 4wd work preferably, as they know what works and what doesnt.

Your total travel from bumpstop to shock fully extended will not change by more than about 20mm across the brands, but with a lift the vehicle will sit within a different position within that travel range, generally you should keep 60-80mm down travel in shock length, and because the springs "suspend' the vehicle, it should sit close to level loaded, if the rear sits down a little when full, this is ok, because after the first day you have used some water, drank some beer, eaten some food, so the vehicle should go through a transition from down slightly to up slightly in the rear from full to empty.

Now, we know the spring "suspends" the vehicle, and load, the shocks are what controls the "movement", so sometimes, if the car hits the bumsptops on the road, it may not be because the springs arent heavy enough, but because the shock isnt controlling the movement well enough.

Hope this helps.
AnswerID: 69938

Follow Up By: waveslave - Tuesday, Jul 27, 2004 at 19:55

Tuesday, Jul 27, 2004 at 19:55

Very helpful, thanks a bunch.

I have a 78 series Troopy. Rear shocks are Part No.-82 2312

Front Shocks are Part No.-82 2347sp1

The front apparently have 20mm more travel than the factory toyota ones. This is coming from Koni in melbourne. They can actually be sent BACK to melbourne and the "Rebound Spacer" can be removed enabling an additional 30mm of travel. However, on the rear, this can't be done.

Can I just clarify? Are you saying that shock travel only varies by 20mm between brands..PERIOD? Or are there heaps of different travel lenghts in the same and different brands? I thought the latter.

The people who fitted the Troopy, the Ambulance Fleet Netowrk, said that the Koni shocks would cope fine with a 2inch lift, but I rang Koni to get thjeir opinion, and they said "maybe". That helps doesn't it.

As for the weighbridge, I plan on that next week as we are doing a trip with 90% of the gear we will be travelling with. Then I will know how many springs/what type to put in.

Any more deeback regd. the Koni's would be muchly appreciated. Thanks very much.
FollowupID: 330159

Follow Up By: waveslave - Tuesday, Jul 27, 2004 at 19:56

Tuesday, Jul 27, 2004 at 19:56
Also, front springs in a 78 series are COIL.

FollowupID: 330160

Follow Up By: GO_OFFROAD - Tuesday, Jul 27, 2004 at 20:09

Tuesday, Jul 27, 2004 at 20:09
I fitted GQ rear shocks in Koni extra long to the back of my 2000 model 78 series troopy, which fixed the roly poly thing the troopies seemed to do with coil front leaf rear, I left the GQ coil valving in the Konis to help with this.

I also used OME rear heaviest spring, removed the shortest of the 2 second stage springs and turned the other upside down so it came in later, [because of the slight arch of the second stage] making for a smoother ride when less full, and slowing the suspension down on bigger bumps before the bumpstop.

In the front I used OME medium spring, then the heavy, when I fitted the Koni to the front, I have both those sets of springs still, if your in Melb /geelong area and want to try them/buy them.

If you want more travel in the front I used GQ extra long front Koni shocks, with 20mm sway bar spacers, as 100 series were to long, and the coils wanted to fall out.

I ran 36" swampers on 10" rims on my troopy, can send you some pics of spacer for sway bars, etc if you like.

FollowupID: 330162

Follow Up By: waveslave - Tuesday, Jul 27, 2004 at 21:03

Tuesday, Jul 27, 2004 at 21:03

I'd love to see pics of the truck in general if you have any. That would be a mean lookin machine. Sounds like my standard Koni's aren't going to cut it. Looks like I will have to fork out the extra. Will prob. get the Tough Dog Adjustables.

I'm in Syd. so while ur trying a few combo's of springs would be good........

The rockcrawler springs are meant to be good...who knows?

What are you running now, if not the OME?

FollowupID: 330177

Follow Up By: GO_OFFROAD - Tuesday, Jul 27, 2004 at 21:10

Tuesday, Jul 27, 2004 at 21:10
I sold the truck about 18 months ago.

This pic is of where I fitted castor bushes to the rear of the front arms to move the diff forward 12mm, to give some more room for the 36" tyres.

[ View Image]
FollowupID: 330180

Follow Up By: GO_OFFROAD - Tuesday, Jul 27, 2004 at 21:29

Tuesday, Jul 27, 2004 at 21:29
This pic is in the front yard

[ View Image]

from the back

[ View Image]

the rear with drawers which slid under the rear seat, where the 2 x 40 lt water tanks were.

[ View Image]

early days with Q78's on 100 GXL rims

[ View Image]
FollowupID: 330185

Reply By: Member - Jiarna (SA) - Tuesday, Jul 27, 2004 at 23:35

Tuesday, Jul 27, 2004 at 23:35
I have HD springs that are 50mm raised from std, but still have std length shockies. Only been like that for 15000 km but no problems so far (I live in Oodnadatta, so they get a workout). I agree with Go_Offroad that raised springs don't give you a lot more wheel travel, so you don't necessarily need longer shockies. If the shockies are too short, the piston inside will hit the top of the bore when the wheel drops into a hole, but won't make a scrap of difference to normal wheel travel. In fact with HD springs you actually reduce wheel travel, which is the whole point of fitting them, so long travel shockies seem a bit of overkill to me.
I'm sure someone will point out if there are holes in my thinking.
Those who say something cannot be done should not interrupt the person doing it.

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AnswerID: 69990

Reply By: Member - Bob - Wednesday, Jul 28, 2004 at 09:38

Wednesday, Jul 28, 2004 at 09:38
I don't know anything about the suspension in Troopies but Polyairs may provide a cheaper and adjustable solution. I have been happy with them. They fit inside the coil and effectively increase coil stiffness with increasing inflation pressure
AnswerID: 70012

Reply By: banjodog - Wednesday, Jul 28, 2004 at 14:46

Wednesday, Jul 28, 2004 at 14:46
Just be aware that if you're after a 50mm (2") lift over standard height in the rear, the main and second leaf need to be longer than the standard springs to keep the shackles at the right angle.

Otherwise the shackle plates will hang verticle or at worst the reverse angle and could invert upwards onto the chassis - and stay there! Don't just have the springs re-tempered for lift - won't last in the long run.

So the solution is to replace the rear spring packs (more $$$ though) with the correct ones for a 50mm lift - so going by your "expert advice" above I assume this covered the ARB / TJM / EFS brands.

They would all have the correct springs for your needs - usually 50mm is the max for RWC anyway. I mentioned these 3 brands as they're nation wide, so if you do have any issues while travelling your shouldn't be too far away from them.

Best of luck.
AnswerID: 70061

Follow Up By: waveslave - Wednesday, Jul 28, 2004 at 15:31

Wednesday, Jul 28, 2004 at 15:31
Hey mate,

I'm pretty sure they are using 50mm lift prings but I will double check now. Thanks.
FollowupID: 330275

Follow Up By: banjodog - Wednesday, Jul 28, 2004 at 16:01

Wednesday, Jul 28, 2004 at 16:01
Opps! I mentioned ARB - I mean OME, sold by ARB.

Info (although I stand corrected) - OME and TJM springs are made by Kings on the Gold Coast.

TJM are reboxed Kings. OME are custom made to OME specs - they have lots of options.

EFS made by Carroll's springs - their premium set. Budget set are the Enforce springs.
FollowupID: 330278

Reply By: waveslave - Wednesday, Jul 28, 2004 at 17:41

Wednesday, Jul 28, 2004 at 17:41

The fella just said he would be putin on H.D. Carroll's. I has heard they are good so agreed. I dunno if he was using EFS or Enforcer. I hope he's usin EFS. When you say that Enforcer are the budget set, are they pretty muchbleepcompared to EFS? And do they just have a shorter lifespan?
AnswerID: 70074

Follow Up By: banjodog - Wednesday, Jul 28, 2004 at 19:49

Wednesday, Jul 28, 2004 at 19:49
I would think budget on price not quality for the Enforcer. Maybe the EFS series are the heavy duty ones. But both are made from Carroll's.

I had an uncle that worked for Payne Burne and Blackfords - they made gaskets in Bne. One run would be stamped Repco, the next run ACL and the next run Ford. All from the same factory and all the same quality and ALL the same gaskets. Just in different packaging. Some would argue that Ford branded ones were better quality than ACL.

I think it's the same at Carroll's.

FollowupID: 330313

Reply By: Member - Bradley- Wednesday, Jul 28, 2004 at 20:50

Wednesday, Jul 28, 2004 at 20:50
Mate you could always just go to a spring works with your weighbridge ticket etc. and tell them what you want to acheive. They can make a set up to your exact needs. Spicers on the hume hwy at Campbellfield are pretty good ( vic) Shouldn't be too hard to find a place in SYD..
AnswerID: 70113

Reply By: waveslave - Thursday, Jul 29, 2004 at 09:46

Thursday, Jul 29, 2004 at 09:46
Thankyou everybardy! I have gone with the Enforcer rear leaves, Front King coils, (Old king coil was a merry old sole...) and will wait and see if the Koni's will suffice in terms of wheel travel. Lets hope they do.

Peace Out!
AnswerID: 70178

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