Charging Alt Battery from Smart Alternator

Thanks Batts for your input appreciate it.

The cig socket probably will not supply enough current and w ithout a DC-DC will never provide a good charge voltage

Is there a push on for that in 4wd's these days ? There would be thousands of people with an agm or lithium in their cabin but yes I wouldn't put a lead acid in there because it's venting gasses all the time.

Batt's We have had a customers car fail a roadworthy. We had to fit a sealed box out of a race car. :-)

So interesting to find out if that was just the individual who done the roadworthy's choice to knock it back or if there is a crackdown on it in certain states or Australia wide like batteries in caravans these days.
We had a van 20yrs ago and it had a lead acid already under the lounge seat which was not in a sealed box I so I fitted one and ran a clear tube to the outside.

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Ivan is wrong. AS/NZ 3001 applies to recreational vehicles but not passenger vehicles. So if the "car" that Ivan refers to was not a motorhome or caravan then it was not subject to that regulation and should not have been defaulted.

This is a cut-and-paste from AS/NZ 3001……….
"Specifies requirements for electrical installations associated with connectable electrical installation s used for the purposes of accommodation, habitation or other residential, commercial purposes or recreational uses that are intended for connection to external low voltage a.c. supply systems (i.e. 50 V a.c. to 1000 V a.c.) "

"AS/NZ 3001 applies to recreational vehicles but not passenger vehicles."
Wrong again :)
AS/NZ 3001 applies to "transportable buildings" and a transportable building needs to have the capability to be plugged into the grid.
It could be a passenger vehicle, but it does not apply to a recreational vehicle (or any other vehicle) that can not plug into the grid.
Cheers,
Peter
OKA196 motorhome

From the VIC roads website regarding roadworthiness:

"All batteries must be adequately supported and secure. In addition, if fitted in a luggage or occupant compartment, the battery must either be of a type that is fully sealed or be located within a sub compartment which is vented to atmosphere outside the vehicle.

Vehicles with batteries located in the same way that the vehicle manufacturer installed the original battery are deemed to comply with this requirement, provided the battery is of the same type as the original, and its installation and related components are as per the vehicle manufacturer’s specification."

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Peter, NOT "wrong again" I'm afraid, but merely an abbreviation that applies to the subject that Ivan raised. There is a section within AS/NZ 3001 that relates specifically to motorhome and caravans. And yes, it does refer to those with an installed 230vac inlet facility, which those vehicles mostly have. But the Standard has no reference or relativity to "cars" which is what Ivan said….."We have had a customers CAR fail a roadworthy."

My copy of AS/NZ 3001 is "corrupted" and when I have time to sort it out I can quote details.

I wouldn't say Ivan was wrong as I expect they would have been going of information supplied to them by the customer.
The type of battery was not mentioned either which can make a big difference.

Allan, I am pretty sure that AS/NZ 3001 does not apply to ANYTHING that is not "Connectable" ie. capable of being plugged into the grid (and everything - with some specified exemptions, that does).
My OKA can't be "plugged in" and it therefore AS/NZ 3001 does not apply. What does apply though is AS/NZ 3000 due to the power distributed from the inverter via hard wiring.
The fine print is critical with this stuff..... It is hard work to comprehend sometimes.
This is a list of exclusions I acquired form somewhere. Edit: says "2:2022"

My conclusion is that if the NON recreational vehicle (car) is "connectable" then 3001 applies.
And if it is NOT "connectable" the 3001 does NOT apply.
Peter
OKA196 motorhome

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Peter, You say that I am "Wrong again" but that is not so . AS/NZS 3001.2 has a title of "Electrical installations — Connectable electrical installations and supply arrangements."
Under "1.1 Scope" it includes "Section 1.1.2.2 Recreational vehicles: (a) Caravans, (b) Campervans, (c) Motor homes, (d) etc.etc. and a range of non-recreational vehicles.
My point of argument with Ivan is that he said a "customer's car failed a roadworthy" due to non-conformity for lack of a sealed battery box. Well he did not say "motorhome" etc, he said a "car" and I very much doubt that the car was not arranged with a 230vac inlet socket in order to qualify as a "Connectable unit".

DISCLAIMER: Leigh makes a point that….."All batteries must be adequately supported and secure. In addition, if fitted in a luggage or occupant compartment, the battery must either be of a type that is fully sealed or be located within a sub compartment which is vented to atmosphere outside the vehicle."
And I can well believe that. When it comes to electrical matters, Victoria does not necessarily conform to Australian Standards as do other States but "goes it alone". I have had the pleasure(?) of working under Victorian electrical regulations who refused to recognise my South Australian Electrical Workers Certificate and I had to be examined and qualify all over again to qualify for their certification. It is not just Victoria either, even those States that adopt the AS/NZS 3000 often have interpretations and additional requirements. It can make working Commonwealth-wide rather difficult.

Peter, you highlight an image from AS/NZS 3001 that states about "Other vehicles may use this Standard as a guide" which means that although these vehicles are not embraced with the Standard's requirement, it is suggested that they may find the Standard useful as a guide." But not a requirement.
Yes, the "fine print is critical" and I am very familiar with interpreting these Australian Standards (and others) in the performance of my work.

My over-riding point is that Ivan's expression should not be taken at face value without considering the specific circumstance. Ivan is good at throwaway expressions.

Incidentally, this may be a good opportunity to point out that AS/NZS refers to "Lithium ion" batteries and makes no distinction of a LiFePO4 battery. however, I have had communication with the Standards organisation and they consider that a LiFePO4 battery (Lithium Iron Phosphate battery) is a type of lithium-ion battery. So do not consider that a LiFePO4 battery is not excluded from the requirements.

I agree with your post detail Allan, but "Non connectable = Not applicable".
https://www.australiastandards.com/product/as-nzs-3001-2-2022/
"Specifies requirements for electrical installations associated with connectable electrical installation s used for the purposes of accommodation, habitation or other residential, commercial purposes or recreational uses that are intended for connection to external low voltage a.c. supply systems (i.e. 50 V a.c. to 1000 V a.c.) by either a detachable supply lead or a supply lead directly connected to the connectable electrical installation. Includes requirements and provides guidance for the installation of extra-low voltage systems (i.e. less than 50 V a.c. or 120 V d.c. ripple free)."
Cheers,
Peter
OKA 196 motorhome

AllanB. Ivan said the car was knocked for roadworthiness, not electrical compliance.

All the AS 3001 chatter is irrelevant to a roadworthy requirement. As I found out from VicRoads, to put a battery inside my Troopy, it either had to be fully sealed or in a compartment sealed from the vehicle interior and vented or open to the vehicle exterior. They printed the blurb off their website for me which specified it. Ivans advice is spot on what VicRoads told me.

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Then I owe Ivan an apology. ..... Sorry Ivan. I clearly misunderstood you.
I was not aware that Victoria was writing its own motor vehicle standards outside of the national ADR regulations and legislation pertaining to . Australian Standards. Has the Victorian state government again drafted its own legislation and rules in this matter?

The roadworthy stuff varies state to state and isn’t an AS/NZS afaik. Wouldn’t it be lovely to have a national roadworthy standard. We are a nanny state tho. So beware????

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I sometimes wonder how much $ all this State duplication is costing us taxpayers in having the law fraternity and the state administrations to duplicate legislation and other controls for matters that are common to the whole of Australia. The only real thing that varies by State is the weather…. and none of them can control that anyway.

I think theres a strong case to abolish State Government and have federal and local government bodies.

They've had these different laws and rules between states for too long and have little disregard to how much it cost the taxpayers especially when the money could have been used for much better things.
It also keeps the government happy putting state against state and they have some many sheep following them who are blind to the reality of things.
Was looking at a caravan in NSW recently but to bring it over the border to QLD the rta basically told me it is de registered any money left on the plates either goes to me or the previous owner they weren't 100% sure who. Then has to get a QLD roadworthy and gas inspection then reregistered not just a simple transfer even though the vehicle had a current NSW roadworthy certificate.
NSW owners don't need a gas certificate to sell a van but in QLD you do so I could have been also buying something with hidden issues because of the different state rules making things difficult.
Not worth the hassle plus throwing more money down the drain.

Just looked at the Kickass Battery box certainly looks the part. I'll ditch the idea of charging via cig socket and use a Anderson plug instead. I also like
the idea of mounting a dcdc charger on top.
Will the smart alternator be capable of fully charging the battery with this con figuration?

That's why they have the dcdc charger to compensate for low voltage that might be supplied from the smart alternator. These types of chargers are usually designed to correctly recharge the battery in stages which should give the battery the best chance of lasting for a long time. That's the basics of how I would explain it others may have more technical info in you need it.
Only other thing is I wouldn't use a blade type of fuse on a charger again because I had one melt before it blew and use ANL type for higher voltage with a spare fuse or on hand and trip switches can trip out with the extra heat if there under the bonnet.

If looking at a lithium battery find a battery box that has everything set up ready to go so it's just plug and play then you don't have to muck around setting up your own shunt and monitor.
Or just use an agm battery for simplicity which is fine inside the cabin of a vehicle.
Unfortunately it can get overwhelming these days but there are easy ways to get around it.

Thanks again, I'll probably go with the AGM, I know the value of the Lithium but I want to keep the batteries as similar as possible to aid charging.

Bigfish, I really appreciate your thoughts, 6B&S from the start batt and dcdc charger now on our list.

Just saying that throws a curve ball into things and just complicates things unnecessarily 72- 120ah in a 24h period. I've never seen or read any info over the years from a 12v fridge manufacturer that claims such a large power consumption or even in 4wd magazines fridge comparison tests no matter how biased some people think they might be. If everyone followed that theory then no company would have ever sold a 100ah battery to someone who goes camping on the weekend.
Realistically with my experience during different times of the year a 100ah will give you a minimum of 2 days with room to spare.

Thanks Macca, I am certainly doing away with the cig socket concept

Hi Batts,

The fridge manufacturers state what the power consumption is, the majority quote between 3 to 5 AmpHrs. Some will use less, depending on certain circumstances. However, using 3 to 5 AmpHrs as a guide, and multiplying by 24, gives you the total AmpHrs in a single day, (without charging of course).

Macca.

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Hi Macca,
Fridge manufacturers mostly use the same compressor and the same insulation so their published performance figures vary only by their honesty. Although they often only quote the instantaneous motor current as predicting the daily consumption varies greatly depending on ambient and fridge usage.
So their published figures are likely to be in Amps rather than Amphours. Then there is the duty cycle factor which typically has the fridge motor running for between 1/3 and 1/2 of the time. So the prediction now becomes 3-5 Amps multiplied by 1/3 to 1/2 duty cycle, multiplied by 24 hours to arrive at the daily Amphour consumption. What cannot be accounted for is the user behaviour with variations for fridge location, temperature setting, how often the fridge is opened, how many warm cans are loaded each day etc..
But as you say, it is a guide.

Allan, there is a bit more variation between manufacturers than that I reckon.
The same (Secop/Danfos) compressor can be run at different (or variable) speeds and that affects the efficiency and the energy requirements.
Don't confuse power and energy.
And insulation is a very big factor that the manufacturer can do well or do very badly. It is possible to halve the energy consumption of a commercially made RV fridge just by doing a better job with the insulation and without changing the power requirement at all.
Cheers,
Peter
OKA196 motorhome

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Yes Peter, There is a rather wide range of fridge quality if you were to go to the more extremes of quality and price, but I was thinking of the average bloke buying the average fridge at the average price. You know, the sort of bloke that might be found on this forum. ….Blokes like me and Macca and Jeff for instance, not someone of extremes.
Actually, I thought that I did make mention of insulation but thank you for raising that.
But be assured, I would never confuse power and energy. I recognise them both and have little of either with this cold weather which however suits poorly performing fridges wonderfully.
Keep up the good work.

Allan, I certainly would not accuse you of mixing up power and energy (and the units that go with them), but sellers of this sort of stuff certainly do and it does not help their cause at all.
Cheers,
Peter
OKA196 motorhome

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Which may be a good reason to disregard manufacturer's performance expressions and consider users recommendations in making a purchase choice.

Problem with that is that users typically only have useful experience with one example of a wide range of product and it will invariably get a glowing endorsement because few of us will admit to making a bad choice.
Cheers,
Peter
OKA196 motorhome

Macca I might have read it wrong and thought the amps was a typo as most people use ah to calculate power usage off a 12v battery for their fridge etc. I haven't actually seen it explained like that before.

Thats a good idea Mark I'll push him in that direction. He's going on a long learning curve.

Thanks warren, I have been eyeing off the power stations. it will probably be in the mix

Thanks Gbc appreciate your thoughts

I looked into the Kings etc slimline for my wife's ASX but you still need a shunt, charger and all the wiring then found a better solution but comes at a cost. There are slimline lithium batteries with a built-in charger so minimum wiring required which is handy and keeping track of it via Bluetooth is what Baintech have. We haven't bought one because there is not enough room in her car but they look like a good idea for a 4wd. LBS have 3 diff but battery sizes but I can't find info if they have Bluetooth or not so you can keep an eye on the battery. There are others that look like there just generic rebranded batteries.
We'll probably just get the 36ah Kings portable unit because we don't use the 30ltr fridge in her car a great deal just handy to be able to keep it running if needed out shopping for the day or overnight etc.

Peter j4
Which battery, inverter brand supplies 2000watts for an induction cook top? At 12 or maybe 13v is around 150 amp being sucked out of the battery. Nearly all BMS systems in batteries DON'T / aren't able to supply 150 amps discharge rate. They get a tad hot, if not frying quite soon!
A 2000 + watt & inverter in a Battery box is all it is.

They are not Power Stations , they don't generate power, only convert previously STORED energy. Power station was a deceptive term used by manufacturers to trick buyers!

Just wondering how does the KISS principle works when possibly have to replace the battery every couple of years that's not a good compromise in anyone's eyes that's just adding to the confusion now.
A lead acid will be under the bonnet so probably giving advise that using insulation has been proven to extend the life of batteries in that situation would be handy to go with the KISS principle. There should be no need to have to replace it that often.
I've had a 2 diesel 60 series cruisers a TD5 disco and a petrol GQ over the years with an aux lead acid battery and they can be good up to 5yrs give or take because there are several variables. So yes it is a good idea but in no way believe you'll be up for a new battery that often unless you run it flat a lot.
As far as financial better of going by what qldcamper says then no you won't be. 100ah around $200 or so depending on quality which will make a difference that's going to add up over 10 yrs.

As usual Batts, you have completely missed the point of my post but at least you have proven the point about forum experts.

I could be wrong but wasn't the main points the KISS principle, that it's ok to use a lead acid battery and also about you having a go at the people you call experts on this site ?
Not sure how I proved your point though I did agree with the use of a lead acid battery.

Yes Batts kiss was his target and so was not investing un necessary quantities of money until there is a need.
Your knee jerk reaction was like i was saying he definatly won't get more than 2 years when my words were probably will.
Then you went on to answer your own arguement, best place for a LA battery is under the bonnet (less than ideal but possible), running it very low (very probable) and without knowing exactly, if the charge rate is lowish, low 13s the battery will not be operating from a fully charged state. Considering these facts 2 years before becoming unfit for this use a reasonable estimate. Comparing this to your 5 year life out of your batteries i would guess you treated them better than that.
Initial cost a cheap battery and 100 amp solenoid and a bit of cable. Mounting the battery is totally on him, I would never recomend any battery be in a passenger cabin.
As for my comments about forum experts, take that any way you want.

Very common now qldcamper to mount lithium po batteries in behind the second row seats of twin cabs and in rear wells of wagons now that many manufacturers are producing slimline lithium to do just that. No issues with fumes and easy, lightweight to mount. .

Just cause it's common doesn't make it any less of a risk. Lots of people carry LPG bottles in the passenger compartment too and get away with it.
Like I say,I would never recomend it, you can do whatever you want.

And yet we all carry a mobile phone that has Lithium phosphate batteries in our car everyday. I,ve never met anyone who carries an LPG bottle in a passenger car. (apart from getting refilled and even then they are normally in the boot. Petrol vehicles have far more accidents involving fire than any ev cars based on a 5 ratio of vehicles.

And yet we all carry a mobile phone that has Lithium phosphate batteries in our car everyday. I,ve never met anyone who carries an LPG bottle in a passenger car. (apart from getting refilled) and even then they are normally in the boot. Petrol vehicles have far more accidents involving fire than any ev cars based on a 5 ratio of vehicles. Electric cars, of which there are now more than 40 million worldwide, are considered by EV Firesafe to be between 20 to 80 times less likely to catch fire than an internal combustion-engined (ICE) vehicle. EV ,S use the batteries as what we use for an auxillary.

So what's your point bigfish, are you saying that because my opinion differs from yours mine must be wrong?
So your saying just because you have never met anyone that carries a LPG cylinder in the back of a wagon nobody does it? Just look at the amount of 4WD wagons at camp sites with stoves and BBQs set up, how did they get their LPG there?
I don't really care what you think and who you have met, my opinion is my opinion based on many years of experience and professional training, not just what I have read in forums and quoting statistics and not really having any idea of the risks involved. How can you minimise the risks if you don't understand what they are in the first place? If you wish to rely on ignorance and set up your vehicles without being aware of the risks involved please carry on but stop kidding yourself that you know more than the real career professionals.
Again you are helping prove my theory on forum experts. Google is not a reliable source of technical information.
You do not have to agree with my opinions but if you wish to contest them please have the decency to actually know what you are talking about, not just paraphrase or copy and past from unreliable sources.

Hi Bigfish,

I was under the impression that the batteries in mobile phones and tablets are Lithium Ion, not Lithium Iron Phosphate.

Macca.

I must be lucky after 25years of having a gas cylinder (or two) in the back of a Troop Carrier without blowing myself up.
Of course I made sure that they were totally turned off. That is, a double check every time they were stowed.

I took the same precautions that apply to any other hazardous situations.

Safety awareness is good, essentail even, however I think it is becoming a 'God' to be worshipped by many.
(Not pointing the finger at those here)

At least you realise that luck has been on your side.
My first serious travelling outfit was an enclosed 7 by 4 trailer with an alloy lid tightly sealed to avoid dust ingress with one gas bottle mounted outside behind the LH guard. I thought i might need more gas for an extended trip so took a smaller brand new 2kg bottle which I stowed inside the trailer.
Travelling on a sunny winter day, first stop opening the trailer strongly smelled LPG, and found the safety valve on the new cylinder had failed hissing loud enough to hear.
I think that day was the luckiest day of our lives, I don't think we would have faired very well if any form of ignition changed our luck.
Hopfully your luck will stay on the up side and never turn down.

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QC, It is possible that the temperature within the trailer was high enough to raise the LPG pressure to open the vent valve.

LPG is potent stuff. I have built and maintained LPG plants and know the risks. The biggest risk is not within a person's knowledge…… it is what they don't know.
I don't even like putting a LPG bottle in the boot to bring it home from the servo. There is a light switch in there that operates when the boot is opened!

Thankyou qldcamper.....your opinion as a forum expert has been duly noted..

McLaren3030...yes you are correct. Majority of mobiles are lithium ion or a polymer. Not as stable as the phosphate model battery but hold more energy for a given size...hence why they are used in smaller electronic gear.

Very likley Allan but it didn't seem very hot at the time. I would imagine an almost empty bottle still retaining a small amount of liquid gas would get just as hot fairly quickly in direct sunlight on a summers day. Whatever the reason we were very lucky.

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Agreed, The pressure relief valves are set well above the normal working pressure of the cylinders even if in direct sunlight but I was suggesting that the cylinder pressure may have risen sufficiently to cause the valve to leak a little. Pure conjecture I know, but you did say that you observed a venting and I am saying that it may have been premature. (faulty).

Therein lies the issue with LPG. It is all very good when everything works OK but is a powerful risk if something goes wrong. In industry, we design to allow for such events to be managed safely….. like not having LPG in confined locations.

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I don't understand why that bloke is feeding his Bluetti from the car battery via a DC-DC module.
I believed that function was already incorporated within the Bluetti as evidenced by the instruction book below:
His whole procedure seems rather complicated.

Allan, the cable referred to in your attached diagram is the cig lighter cable connecting to the cig lighter socket. Bit confusing I agree but that is what they mean. For maximum charging from the DC circuitry the DCDC option is required at around $380 as I recall. The "Have a Crack" link highlights the simplicity of the installation which effectively renders the cig lighter in your diagram redundant.

Kenell