Lithium battery in a caravan

Thanks for your reply RMD.
Yes they are LiFePo4 batteries.
I was asking to be safe and being cautious.
William

William
I use two in parallel in ute tub, a 4s 12.8 v pack made in a plastic box f as portable. runs compressor etc. a 144ah 2px 4S made in a N70Z case in caravan cupboard and a 24v 2P x 8S pack in a rack system for house, micrwave/ fridge power. All perfectly ok.

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Despite what some may believe and espouse, Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePO or LFP) batteries are a specific type of rechargeable lithium-ion battery.

The 3001 Standard makes no differentiation.

This Standard, as with many others, can be somewhat difficult to interpret if you are not fully qualified in the appropriate technology. So I would caution against not following its exact requirements.

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William,
The Standard was published on 18th November 2022 and became legislated on 18th November 2023.
Its requirements are not retrospective.
Repairs to existing installations are not required to be in accord to this Standard provided that they are made "like-for-like". That is, if lead-acid was used before it may be replaced without upgrade to the Standard, but if upgrading from lead-acid to Lithium then the whole installation must be upgraded to the new Standard.

Many 4wd owners also mount these slimline lithium batteries behind their rear seats in their twin cabs. Mine are in the 3 rd row well of my Pajero and have been there for over 8 years with no issues . What gas,s are we talking about that require a lithium battery to be vented???

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Hi Bigfish,
If your vehicle is NOT arranged to be "connectable" to an external electrical supply (like a caravan is) then it it not subject to Standard 3001.

Personally, I would consider that a vehicle such as my old Troopy in which we slept was at the same battery toxic vapours risk as any vehicle that had external connectivity but no, this standard did not embrace it. The authors chose to use external connectivity as an index rather than habitation.
It is one of the criticisms I have of a very poorly constructed and aimed standard.

The gasses you ask about are sulphuric from lead-acid batteries and whatever com from lithium.

Cheers,
Peter
OKA196 motorhome

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Peter, I do not understand what you are hoping to convey in referencing clause 1.1.3 (iv).
Your image is a little hard to read so I will post it here……..
"1.1.3 Exclusions:
1.1.3 (iv) Other vehicles such as emergency vehicles that do not have an external low voltage connection.
In the case of these vehicles, this Standard may be used as a guide."

I really do not understand this clause. Do you? …."may be used as a guide"? As a guide to what?
It seems to be stating the obvious. i.e. If they do not have an external electrical connection then they are excluded from the requirements of this Standard. Well of course they would be excluded if they had no connection. The second paragraph of the Preface states that the Standard applies to "connectable electrical installations". It hardly needs to further state that "vehicles that do not have an external low voltage connection" are excluded. If the clause has some meaning it eludes me. It is this sort of clumsiness that annoys me about this Standard.

So I ask again, why did you post it?

Allan, I posted it because some here may not be aware of how simple it is to avoid complying with the Standard, if they wanted to do that.
With modern solar and batteries it is relatively easy to be totally off grid. If you can be off grid for a week, you can be off grid forever and avoid the Standard, if you wished.

My current OKA motorhome has no external connection (and never has had), so it does not need to comply, but adding an external connection now would be a significant task.
The new build under construction will also have no external connection so it does not need to comply either, but I will follow the standard wherever I can and when it makes sense to do so.
For instance, I have changed from single pole to double pole circuit breakers on the solar input cables. A simple task. I am sure there will be other things like this that are simple additions that make sense and would make adding an external connection later a lot easier, if for some reason I (or a subsequent owner) decided that was a good idea.
Cheers,
Peter
OKA196 motorhome

Thanks for that Peter.
As I read it the batteries don't need to have a vent to outside as long they are in a sealed area as to not allow gas from the batteries to enter the habitable area.
The batteries in my van are under a bunk bed.
I feel if I seal the opening to the batteries I will be compliant.
I understand the PDF you attached is only a summary but I feel I may be ok.
On another matter I have an inverter as well, would I need to place a label somewhere indicating the fact I have a inverter fitted and it's location?
Thank you for your advice, it is much appreciated.
William

Quote "As I read it the batteries don't need to have a vent to outside as long they are in a sealed area as to not allow gas from the batteries to enter the habitable area."

Nor so. What the PDF says is:
"Compartment design and venting
• Must be developed in consultation with battery manufacturer"
What that tells me is you need to find out from the manufacturer what the ventilation requirements for the battery. If you can not ascertain the requirements, I suggest you provide good external ventilation for the battery.

RedArc Lithium battery installation guide
Cheers,
Peter
OKA196 motorhome

I suggest that it is a bad idea to make fundamental decisions based on a non-official summary that is quite old now. I would suggest that AS3001 (2022) makes no distinctions or exemptions, so it is a moot point. I cannot imagine that the standard excludes "lithium iron", but includes "lithium ion" AND lead acid, but it does not matter what you or I think. Ask the authorities for a clear understanding or buy the standard.

Personally, I would not put any battery under a bed.

And just for completion, this was a LiFePo4 battery with a built-in BMS. It had been totally disconnected for 3 days before catching fire. It was removed and put into a drum of water. It was still bubbling 2 days later. The vehicle was written off.

ps..this photograph is copyright.
Cheers,
Peter
OKA196 motorhome

Another non-official summary....
Ausmotion notes on AS3001 (2022)
No mention of 'lithium ion' or 'lithium iron', just "lithium".
Read the section on legal requirements too.
Buy the Standard.
Cheers,
Peter
OKA196 motorhome

Peter,

To be clear, was the battery the cause of the fire, or was the fire started by something else, and was just involved in the fire?

Do you have a copy of the official report on the fire?

Macca.

The battery caused the fire.
The report has not been publicly available. The vehicle insurer made full payment.
Cheers,
Peter
OKA196 motorhome

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Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePO or LFP) batteries are a specific type of rechargeable lithium-ion battery.
The 3001 Standard makes no differentiation. I contacted the Standards Australia for clarification and this was their advice. I told them that because general public usage of the terms "Lithium Ion" and "Lithium Ion Phosphate" implied a distinct differentiation that the Standard should contain clarification but I think my advice fell on deaf ears.

REALLY?
Is the chemical smell REALLY from the BATTERY. for that to happen, each vent or at least some disc vents inside must be SWOLLEN and POPPED to emit any gaseous odour. Then it also has to make it's way to the OUTSIDE of the BATTERY, SOMEHOW!

The Electrolyte of a LITHIUM Li Fe PO4 battery cell is inside it's INDIVIDUAL CASE.
DOES any smell IF PRESENT, seep through PLASTIC . WOW!

Maybe its just the smell of the palstic cases, who knows but it has a smell in there after I open the cabinet after being closed for a few months.

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Leigh, you have got it all wrong.
The battery must be in a dedicated compartment even if it is under a bed and must have specific ventilation to the outside of the vehicle so there is no question of pressurisation.
If you wish to question the Standards intention and requirements then perhaps you should obtain and study a copy of the Standard.

Are you able to line it with a layer of fibreglass ?

Cheers
Jim

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The 3001 Standard makes no requirements regarding the construction of the battery enclosure (other than its venting) or about its sealing, either arrangement nor effectiveness. It is left entirely to the determination of the user.
In my case, I chose to upgrade my installation to voluntarily incorporate a vented battery box for reasons of ultimate vehicle resale. In line with access constraints I manufactured the enclosure from 12mm marine plywood coated inside and outside with an epoxy paint and a closed cell foam rubber seal on an access cover secured by four 6mm stainless machine screws. venting was directly through the floor of the vehicle. In my opinion it satisfies either the specifics or spirit of the standard. With the open vents no significant pressure should occur within the enclosure.

Although not spelled out specifically within the standard it would appear that the intention of the enclosure is to avoid the possibility of toxic vapours within the habitable area of the vehicle. There are no references to events of fire or explosion.

Bearing in mind that I am very familiar with Standards pertaining to electrical and hazardous environments, I declare that this is a very poorly constructed standard even for those with expertise in the subject. Even more difficult for laymen to interpret. However to effectively offer constructive criticism it is virtually impossible to penetrate the world of the Standard Makers unless you occupy rather exclusive industry positions which I once did but now no longer.

There are some re-expressions of this standard in perhaps clearer terms such as offered above by Peter but I am not convinced that they have entirely interpreted the standard correctly in all instances. I have some spare time coming up in the next week so may do some reading of them with my copy of the standards at my elbow. If I find any examples of risky expression I will announce it on this thread.

Quote "does it need to have a measure of ability to absorb any great pressure?"

If the enclosure is vented sufficiently there is no possibility of a pressure build up in it.

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No Leigh, AS 3001 makes no reference to fire containment, only to the exclusion of vapours to the habitable zones. Which is possibly why they do not specify the compartment construction.
Personally, if my lithium battery was on fire, even within a metal compartment, I would be vacating the vehicle rapidly. You have little hope of extinguishing it.