A ? about Inverters and Voltage Outputs

Submitted: Thursday, Oct 14, 2004 at 07:03
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With all the electronic gadgets we all now collect to take on trips with us I thought it more sensible to purchased a inverter to charge all the mobile phone batteries , video batteries , digital cameras etc etc as they all come with a 240v ac charger. The model I purchased is a 500watt with a 700w surge capability dual outlets modified sine model . It preformed well for our six weeks through outback NSW , SA and Queensland doing all the jobs it was intended . I also used it every day to run an electric shaver and of a night to power a standard 13 watt enegy efficient globe which was super bright as any who has travelled severly corrugated roads knows that mantles have a life span of 2 corrugates . Upon returning home and going back to work I was telling the electrican I was working how well the inverter worked and remarked how much brighter the 13w globe was running through the inverter than what it was when plugged into a 240 volt outlet at home . He said that this should not be the case as it should be the same . We then tested it with a voltage meter and found out that the voltage output was about 300 volt . A ring to the supplier and they said if that was the case they would replace it as it was faulty so it was packed up and sent to them for shipping . The unit was checked and sent back to me with a letter saying every thing was ok as they had tested it and with 12 volt input its output was 254 volts but when they increased the voltge from 12v through to 13.5 volts the voltage output went from 254 volts through to 270 volts but they said this is normal .
My question is this, a battery in good condition will have a voltage output of about 12.7 volts so the output will exceed the 240 volt straight away , a battery with a 12v output is about 25% charged so pretty dangerous stuff running around out back . The unit also says it can be mounted permanatly to the vehicle but it obviously wouldn't be usable while travelling as the alternator is putting about 14.5 volt input back into the battery .
I am worried about using it again on the cameras etc as the higher voltage input may damage the electronics . IS there any way a voltage regulator can be fitted to the input or out put or do I cut my losses and throw it away and start purchasing 12 volt adaptors for all my gadgets . Any help greatly appreciated .
Note : we plugged the voltage meter we were using into a 240 volt outlet and it read 240 volt so the meter was ok , the voltgae output of the battery we were using was 12.45 volts but the inveter still showed an output of 305volt to 311 volt .
What the !?
Cheers
Ken
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Reply By: Lone Wolf - Thursday, Oct 14, 2004 at 07:39

Thursday, Oct 14, 2004 at 07:39
2 things.....

1 ) The inverter you are using is way to big for what you need, too much residual current drain.

2 ) Don't use it when the alternator is running. Connect to a battery that has been previously charged, or wait till nightfall.

Cheers

Wolfie
AnswerID: 80158

Follow Up By: Bonz (Vic) - Thursday, Oct 14, 2004 at 19:54

Thursday, Oct 14, 2004 at 19:54
Rubbish Wolfie, they should regulate the output voltage for a range of input voltages.
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Follow Up By: Pauly - Friday, Oct 15, 2004 at 21:36

Friday, Oct 15, 2004 at 21:36
Bigger the better if you need the extra power you have it, If you have a 500w inverter doesnt mean it allway draws 500w it means it's capable of drawing 500w.
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Reply By: Member - Wim (Qld) - Thursday, Oct 14, 2004 at 08:08

Thursday, Oct 14, 2004 at 08:08
Kenny.

Do some further check.s Inverter connected to battery, gadget battery charger plugged into inveter. Now measure DC output from gadget chargers. Do test again and run car alternator now check DC voltage to gadget charger again.
Also check gadget charger and see if it is getting too hot.
After these tests you may or may not have a problem.

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Reply By: Member - Stillthinkinaboutit - Thursday, Oct 14, 2004 at 08:17

Thursday, Oct 14, 2004 at 08:17
It sounds like you have bought a dud unit.
I tested my unit on a bench supply and it regulates quite well from a 10 -15 vdc input. It is a 300W unit, with various loads attached the output voltage range is 230 - 236V RMS.

This is a pure sinewave unit made by Powertech.
It has a regulated output. The spec sheet say 230 volt +/- 3%, it certainly meets these specs.

Maybe have a look at the data sheet and see what it should be capable of.
If the spec says it is regulated and you unit is outside of this range, ask for your money back or get it repaired properly.

Regards,
Mark
AnswerID: 80165

Reply By: GeeTee - Thursday, Oct 14, 2004 at 08:49

Thursday, Oct 14, 2004 at 08:49
Hi, Not sure if this is significant but it may be that your meter is reading incorrect voltage because of the modified sine wave. Did all that theory a long way back and seem to remember something about it. Maybe an electronics expert can set that one straight.

Try a google search on " modified sine wave measurement " , some interesting info.

I tried this link but no luck

" Power Inverters FAQ
... For accurate measurement of the output voltage of the inverter, a voltmeter with "True RMS Voltmeter ... The modified sine wave output confuses non true RMS meters. ...
www.whistlergroup.com/faq-inverters-answers.asp - 46k - Cached - Similar pages "

GeeTee
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Follow Up By: Gerry - Thursday, Oct 14, 2004 at 11:35

Thursday, Oct 14, 2004 at 11:35
Very true... using an ordinary meter will not give you a true reading. I run a modified square wave inverter (not a true sine wave) both while stationary and also on the move to run a laptop and have not had any problems whatsoever. In my humble opinion, I don't think you have much of a problem. If you do measure output again, make sure you have a load connected as the voltage will float up under no load conditions.
Gerry
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Reply By: drivesafe - Thursday, Oct 14, 2004 at 09:01

Thursday, Oct 14, 2004 at 09:01
Hi kenny, before you do anything, you might try contacting your local electricity authority.
Prior the privatisation, you could raise such matters with them for answers. Things may have changed but I doubt it. You should be able to at least be told who to contact to get some answers as to what is legally acceptable.
This area is a bit of a grey area but there are laws governing what can be used with caravans, motor homes and the likes, so I would imagine that there will be something there to help you.
Cheers
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Follow Up By: Bonz (Vic) - Thursday, Oct 14, 2004 at 20:06

Thursday, Oct 14, 2004 at 20:06
Its not the electricity authority that you need to contact but the Office of the Chief Electrical Inspector. Theyre the ones who may have a passing interest in inverters however seeing that they are not connected to the electricity system per se, they might tell you to go elsewhere, in which case Standards Australia may be the governing body or some other Government mob that look after such things.

As for normal electricity supply it is allowed to vary (within regulated limits) 240v +- 6%, thats as low as 226v and high as 254v. Thats on Victoria and we're moving to a 250v regulated system (+4% and -10% I THINK?) WA already have a 250v system and most other states are 240v I think.

The laws with caravans and the like are due to them being able to be connected to the electricity system hence they need to be regulated.

Hope that helps.
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Follow Up By: drivesafe - Thursday, Oct 14, 2004 at 20:55

Thursday, Oct 14, 2004 at 20:55
Hi Bonz, although you are right, the idea of contacting the electricity authoritiy is because they can usually be contacted to get a referance to the correct authority, other than Standards Australia.
Correct me if I’m wrong here but the only way you can get anything in regards to legulations and operating perimiters from Standards Australia, is to buy the appropriate Standards Manuals.
By the way I think you will find that all of Australia is 240 volts. We are one of only a few countries in the world that has a nation wide standard in a whole range of areas relating to domestic power supply.
Also I believe that at some point in the future, we are going to adopt the international standard of 220 VAC.
Cheers
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Follow Up By: Bonz (Vic) - Friday, Oct 15, 2004 at 17:43

Friday, Oct 15, 2004 at 17:43
Yer drive, they sell you standards, but the electricity company will only refer you on, its not their role any longer. WA is definitely 250v and Victoria are moving from a 240v base to a 250v base. I couldnt see them ever moving to 220v, the infrastructure cost would be huge. I used to work for the SEC in Vic.
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Follow Up By: Bonz (Vic) - Friday, Oct 15, 2004 at 18:11

Friday, Oct 15, 2004 at 18:11
Drivesafe, I dunno what that guy's on up there (Bonz) but WA is definitely 240v as you say. They used to be 250v but have reduced since the SEC was ruthlessly split up and sond off to service a huge Labor account deficit and debt.
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Follow Up By: Pauly - Friday, Oct 15, 2004 at 21:46

Friday, Oct 15, 2004 at 21:46
If it's not connected to mains supply it's up to the office of energy they should be able to tell you what is deamed as an exceptable voltage for inverters
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Reply By: Member - Jeff M (WA) - Thursday, Oct 14, 2004 at 13:57

Thursday, Oct 14, 2004 at 13:57
It's either a very poor design or a faulty unit I would say. But as suggested above, I would be interested to see what the voltage is like when it is under load. But it should be regulated anyway IMO so the load should not change it much.
AnswerID: 80207

Reply By: Member - Dragan T (VIC) - Friday, Oct 15, 2004 at 00:05

Friday, Oct 15, 2004 at 00:05
Hi Kenny,

I think that you have bought a cheap unit! Actually it may not be cheap but for sure it is not very good in quality of the design. First of all, modified sinewave is a "make up" name for square wave. If you connect CRO to your inverter and load it 100% you will see mathematically correct square wave that doesn't have even a bit of a sine! Without load it will look more like a pulse with 2 ripples on top bottom and in the middle of the signal. I doubt it that your unit is faulty, it is just designed that way that it doesn't regulate voltage properly, or in your case not at all!!! Take in calculation that you have to step up your voltage 20 times 12VDC*20=240V (approx, don't worry about DC/AC difference for now) this means that for every 1 volt difference on your battery you will get 20 volt difference on your AC side! So if your alternator is pumping out 14.7V you will get 294 on your AC side aproximatelly. If you give me model and brand of you inverter i may be to dig out some specs! If it is out of warranty, bad luck. My advice, in the future, buy pure sine wave inverters, they are always better quality!!!
AnswerID: 80263

Follow Up By: Pauly - Friday, Oct 15, 2004 at 21:58

Friday, Oct 15, 2004 at 21:58
O.k so where did you come up with that formula i've looked through all by books and cant find it, 1 volt differance on primary side gives you 20 volts increase on secondary, please explain?
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Follow Up By: Member - Dragan T (VIC) - Saturday, Oct 16, 2004 at 00:37

Saturday, Oct 16, 2004 at 00:37
Well, from problem description looks like his inverter is not regulated at all!!! And in that case in is not difficult to work it out. They probably took 12VDC and made it to give 240VAC on the output. Only additional circuitry could be some kinda "deregulator" with voltage differences that he mentioned! I just actullay assumed that it is not regulated. Which books did you look into by the way?
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Follow Up By: Wok - Saturday, Oct 16, 2004 at 07:28

Saturday, Oct 16, 2004 at 07:28
Hi Dragan T,

Just quietly,
[quote] First of all, modified sinewave is a "make up" name for square wave. If you connect CRO to your inverter and load it 100% you will see mathematically correct square wave that doesn't have even a bit of a sine! [/quote]
A square wave is made up of an infinite series of odd harmonics of the fundamental ie for 50hz = [3x50] + [5x50] + [7x50] etc

rgds
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Follow Up By: Pauly - Saturday, Oct 16, 2004 at 14:02

Saturday, Oct 16, 2004 at 14:02
I'm a 3rd year apprentice electrician i was looking through my tafe books and a book written by jenneson has every thing an electrician needs to know, i all ways thought that a regulator changes ac to dc nothing to do with voltage can all so do it with 4 diodes same thing, cars have regulators becuase the alternator is producing ac.
with inverters im not really sure but find them interesting im just thinking of transformers and how they work, i want to pull an inverter apart and see how they actually work but dont want too cause it might not work after that.
Interesting subject thou

cheers paul
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Follow Up By: Member - Dragan T (VIC) - Sunday, Oct 17, 2004 at 23:09

Sunday, Oct 17, 2004 at 23:09
Hi Pauly!!

First of all, AC to DC or DC to AC it always has A LOT to do with voltage! It is much easier to convert AC to DC, 4 diodes, a capacitor and you get DC!!! Othey way around it is a bit more complicated, you have to have something to switch DC voltage to get AC, used are transistors, fets, mosfets etc. There are two ways to convert low DC (12V) to high AC (240V) First, you can do your swithcing on low voltage so first you get from 12VDC to 12VAC, and then you use step up transformer to get 240VAC from 12Vac. Other way is to boost 12VDC to at least 300VDC and then do switching on high voltage side and get 240VAC from 300VDC. Inverters for cars mosly use second method because you don't have to use big heavy tranformer. For pure sinewave you have to have an LC circuit on the output (LC circuit is combination og coil and capacitor)

Transformers work on the principle of electro magnetic field. You have 2 couls and a core, primary coil converts electricity in to electro magnetic field which is transfered to secondary coil via metal or ferrite core. Secondary coil then converts that electro magnetic field back to electricity. How much voltage you secondary coil will give it depends on nuber of windings that it has. How much current can tou pull out of it, it depends on thickness of the wire used to produce coils and size of core.

I hope that this helped,

Drop me an e mail on dragant@alphalink.com.au if you want to talk about inverters transformers etc. more in to detail. I'll be happy to help you out!
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Reply By: Member - Dragan T (VIC) - Sunday, Oct 17, 2004 at 22:41

Sunday, Oct 17, 2004 at 22:41
Hi Wok,

I know what you mean. Not just square wave but triangle wave, saw wave etc. any electical signal is maid of sinewaves, because sine is findamental signal, not just in electric/electronics but in nature as well. Bird singing, sound of chain saw, all of them are made out of many many sinewaves. But in this case, what I wanted to say is when you look at the "modified sinewave" of a fully loaded inverter, it doesnt look like sine at all!!!
AnswerID: 80618

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