Dual battery systems (Help)

isnt that the basics of the cole hersy switch? I have used them in plenty of work vehicles and in my 80s Lots of people say they are crap but I dont agree. I have been failed by fancy duel battery setups coz you get no clue that 1 battery is stuffed where as a cole hersy you test the starting on individual batterys. If 1 battery is stuffed you isolate it so it doesnt theive charge. Also if doing electrical work you just turn your batterys off simple and still not only works but works well

Got a Redarc setup and it s great.Simple ,cheap and easy to wire up yourself.Worth a look for sure.

I'm with you guys, I put an Arrid Smart Relay (very similar to the RedtArc) in and it's a peice of cake. All you need to know is that Red is positive and Black is negative, that simple!!

I used to have a fancy pancy eletronic one and it died. Stuff that, went the simple one and it's been going now about 3 months flawlessly and was so easy to put in it's not funny. I also reckon I get a much better charge rate out of the relay as there is no voltage drop.

The other advantage of doing it your self, even if it takes longer and costs more (not that it would) is that you know what the hell is going on under the bonnet. If something goes wrong in the middle of no where, at least you have half a clue as to how to fix it!

I have three Arrid Smart Relay that have failed sitting on my shelf to demonstrate to people the low quality. The only decent functional battery isolator on the market is the Redarc SBI12
.

Just this weekend my son and I installed a redarc relay $122 in his 2004 LC100 V8, Formula off road battery tray (Pirana) $118, 70 amp/hr century battery , about the same size as an N70 $140, 8 B&S cable.
Mounted the battery tray on the RH side, the relay was installed on the RH gaurd, even found 2 bolt holes that were the same centres as the redarc bracket, ran the cable from the positive over top of the radiator and around the air cleaner and to the relay then from the relay to the deep cycle battery poitive. from the negative on the deep cycle to the RH guard, on the RH side of the firewall is a gromet with the main harnes runing through it, below the main harness was a small dimple of rubber, the 8 B&S cable was run through that, by removing the Kick panel on the RH side then the covers on the door sills and the RH rear cover the cable and harness flex was run along side the original toyota harness , a Narva power plug was installed in the lower storage compartment on the forward facing edge, an 8B&S cable earth was run to a bolt hole behind the panel, all the cableing was run in harnessflex, Up to now I have not been able to find a decent 80 or 125 amp thermal reset circuit breaker to place as close as possible to both the batteries, I have a suspicion there is a fuseable link at the original battery, I hope somebody can set me straight on that.
This weekend I will install the same basic system in my 2004 LC100 TD, although I will mount the relay on the LH side with a yellow top optima battery and run the cables down the LH side.
Hope this helps in some way
Stew

Stew
why do you act against the specific written advise of redarc and fit two different batteries when redarc themselves specify their system should only be used with two identical batteries in their technical specifications, are they wrong ?

Mainey
I've looked through the Redarc paperwork and cannot find where they state to use two identical batteries, they do have a diagram showing a start / run battery and a deep cycle battery, how identical is that?, I do realise though it would be preferred to install two identical batteries when wired up in the same circuit, as with most things it’s a compromise. In theory to charge two dissimilar batteries they need to be on separate circuits, then the compromise is that these electronic circuits often fail, in the case of a marine switch the wiring is to big and bulky, the Redarc solenoid is only a smarter constant rated relay or a smarter manual switch, and of them all I have had the least amount of trouble with the Manual switch although with modern cars a spike arrester would still have to be fitted and you still have to remember to isolate or connect, I’ve install dissimilar batteries on the same circuit before and received good life out of the batteries, it’s a matter of monitoring the situation by periodically checking standing voltages, when its noted that one of the batteries is not holding charge replace it and if it’s the original battery I will I replace it with a larger one, closer to the size of the Deep cycle, ie an N70, if it’s the deep cycle I will consider the life that I received from the battery and act accordingly.
Stew

David AU, are they the older model or the newer (smaller) one?? It's ironic because the the guy selling the Arrid told me the Redarc had X amount of problems and the Arrid was better! (sales guys hey!!). Workin good on my rig ATM though, time will tell I guess, it runs some hefty sht in some god awful conditions so I'm happy so far. My underbonnet temp on the weekend (climbing green mount hill in 40degree heat) was pretty far out, still kept on going on...

I have a Redarc and it went faulty. They changed it w/o fuss. It's simple and it works and I would hesitate to buy another. I think whatever you choose it will serve you well.

Leroy

Stew53 ignore Mainey as he really knows nothing and has zero education or qualifications on anything.
Mainey only flogs a dead horse of furphys, bad information and impossible accomplishments which are technically impossible.
Mainey the poor little child knows not what he says and does.

Stew you are entirely correct in your reply. Mainey cannot comprehend that simple correct reply and argue and carry on like the little boy he is.

Mainey toddle off to gregor as he is calling you

David Au...mainey knows lots of sheit
just ask him lol lol

uncle,
as you stated- "he has to have the best of every thing"
I think he may have been yanking yer chain re price, lol

I got quoted around $700 - $750 today for a Pirhana system installed. Won't be doing that, will be looking seriously at a Redarc or whatever it is now.

Problem I have to solve, is where to put the battery tray.....

Dodgy sure it will work, but you miss all the advantages a Redarc offers.

as long as the batteries are both charged and i can keep my beer cold and start the cruiser to go get another one then all is good..so i ain't missin the advantages..

Craig
When you read the specifications sheet that is packaged with the redarc bi-metal solenoid it actually declares, in bold, and in the centre of the page, the two batteries used do in fact have to be "identical"

If the batteries could be 'different' that fact would not be printed by redarc, would it?

However the Piranha system is different, it uses an electronic isolator and not a low-cost bi-metal solenoid and therefore the Piranha technical specifications sheet states the product is manufactured to be used with both a Cranking battery and a Deep Cycle battery together without affecting their warrantee.

Mainey,

I am confused about your position on Redarc[solenoid type] Vs Piranha[assume MosFet/solidstate type] isolators.

[Q] How do you define " ïdentical " and " different " in this case?

Could you please publish/link the equivalent circuit that you are referring to for the Piranha system?

[Q] Which Battery Manufacturer specifies that their Warranty is ' Null-and-Void ' if used with the Redarc?

Cheers

I'll watch this space to see if a link is pasted.....wont hold my breath but lol lol

Wok, this is the piranha link;
http://www.piranhaoffroad.com.au/products/dualbattery/dualbatteryinfo_isolator2.htm
Move around the site and check it out for yourself, if you don't understand something please contact them direct for the full technical explanation.
Wok, do what I did, contact redarc direct and you ask them the specific question yourself, don't E-mail them as they have ignored all my E-mails seeking clarification, obviously don't want their technical reasons put in print... could not get any clearer than in BOLD in the centre of their own solenoid technical specification information sheet. lol

As to Nudenut, hate to see you hold your breath, the red face would not look good with blue glasses.

Redarc do not recommend any such thing .... i sent an email and recived a reply within 3 hours ...obviously you must get under their skin if they dont answer you Mainey...
The answer to my question says that in discussions with a large battery manufacturer it was commented that it is best to use identical batteries but Redarc do not request or require it.

Contact
A. Kittel
Managing Director
REDARC Electronics
Web: www.redarc.com.au

I'm pretty sure Redarc don't use the word identical. I do recall seeing the word similar. You should know that Mainey as this is not the first time you've been pulled up on that point is it.

Nudenut posted this followup
"The answer to my question says that in discussions with a large battery manufacturer it was commented that it is best to use identical batteries but Redarc do not REQUEST or REQUIRE it"

-> then NN may I sugest you actually read the redarc technical specifications sheet and aquaint yourself with the undisputable facts, as they are actually printed in bold in the centre of the page for the installer to read, and according to you they print it there for no valid reason.

You have stated you have been informed in writing by redarc "it is best to use identical batteries" did you ask them ..why ?
Do you think it has something to do with recharging the batteries ?

I asked them because I cannot believe the sheit you say and expect us to believe

Craig,
Both are information relevant to the same redarc solenoid and yes they do totally CONTRADICT each other, when you actually buy the solenoid however you do get a technical specifications sheet included with the unit, and it does state in bold in the centre of the page the batteries should be identical, the small hand drawn diagram is not part of the warrantee specification information and I would suggest is 'for visual effect only' as they say, contact redarc for WRITTEN clarification if you don't have their technical specification sheet.

When you read the equivelent information for other systems they actually state the batteries can be Deep Cycle and also Cranker battery combinations, however they are more expencive due to their electronics, they do not use old fashioned bi-metal switching methods.
Note a comparison is available on the Piranha website as they do sell both solenoids and electronic isolators the sumary link is below.

http://www.piranhaoffroad.com.au/products/dualbattery/dualbatteryinfo_isolator_summary.htm

hope this assists you.

you posted what ...sheit!!!! again? so why go have a look!

ok Mainey I'm home now with the instructions in front of me and to refresh your memory it states "We recommend the use of similar style batteries in the one installation. If uncertain always check with your battery supplier" I would hazard a guess they reason why so many have success with a lead acid starter battery and a lead acid deep cycle is that they are sufficiently similar. To be technicallly pure yes batteries paralled should be identical and the same age but really the world is full of small compromises.

Anyway the bottom line is that my battery supplier said it was ok to parallel my starter and my deep cycle so warranty on my Redarc should not be affected by this.

By the way Mainey, your post here should have been a followup not a new reply. So many don't use the forum correctly and long discussions end up being one a big mess however that is another subject.

Ray,
(Quote) Anyway the bottom line is that my battery supplier said it was ok to parallel my starter and my deep cycle so warranty on my Redarc should not be affected by this (end quote)
Ray, when any bi-metal solenoid closes and allows the two batteries to equalise, power immediately drains direct from one battery to equalise with the other battery, when one is a 90+ a/h D C battery and the other a Cranking battery of approx 65 a/h, you then have to recharge the now only half charged D C battery again.. Even 0zi & nn will agree with that statement….
It takes a long time to fully recharge a 90+ a/h D C battery under those continuing conditions from an alternator.

Ray, you have said your redarc tech specs sheet states "We recommend the use of similar style batteries in the one installation" that is a fair statement, however, why do redarc show both a DC battery and a cranking battery in the picture on the website?
Just what is a "similar style" battery, who do we ask ?
Do we get out the dictionary, or maybe search the web for authoritive guidance from battery specialists... yes!

http://www.marine-electronics.net/techarticle/battery_faq/b_faq.htm#3

“CAR batteries are especially designed for high initial cranking amps (usually 200 to 400 amps for five to 15 seconds) to start a car and for shallow (10% or less) discharges.
They are NOT designed for DEEP CYCLE discharges.

DEEP CYCLE batteries are designed for prolonged discharges at lower current and NOT for high current discharges. The plates in a CAR battery are more porous and thinner than in DEEP CYCLE batteries and use sponges or expanded metal grids instead of solid lead.

A DEEP CYCLE battery will typically outlast two to ten CAR batteries when used in DEEP CYCLE applications. In warm weather, starting an engine will typically consume less that 5% of a car battery's capacity.
In contrast, DEEP CYCLE batteries are used for applications that will consume between 20 and 80% of the battery's capacity.
A DEEP CYCLE battery will work as a starting battery IF it can produce enough current to start the engine, but not as well as a CAR battery”

Ray, as can be seen at every battery manufacturers website that contains precise specifications, a CAR battery is definitely built to do a different job to a DEEP CYCLE battery... Why, because they are purpose built DIFFERENTLY, are they similar, well they are generally the same colour, however even the method of describing their power capabilities is totally DIFFERENT, true not even similar, as in CCA verses AMP HOURS.

Ray, you have posted the facts, they can no longer be disputed… can they ?

As a general rule when someone wants to demean a post, but can't simply because the specifics are incontrovertible, they then assail the 'messenger' to conceal their own imprecision.

Mainey, you stated that the Redarc instructions state that the batteries should be identical. My point was that is incorrect and I correctly pointed out the instructions state the battteries should be similiar. I think the definition of the word similar as used in this case should be left to Redarc don't you ?

"As a general rule when someone wants to demean a post, but can't simply because the specifics are incontrovertible, they then assail the 'messenger' to conceal their own imprecision. "....What drugs are you on Mainey?....gee you are a jerk!!!!

Can I refresh your memory....you made a statement that Redarc requests and requires etc etc...
where is the proof....

the reply i recieved from Redarc was that a Batttery Manufacturer stated it was best.....this does not mean mandatory or a requirement of Redarc!!!

Oh Imade a mistake in my last followup. Readarc actually only "recommend" the batteries be similiar.

Nudenut posted this followup;
"What drugs are you on Mainey?....gee you are a jerk!!!! "

You have confirmed my statement of “attempting to assail the messenger”

Nudenut posted this followup; “Can I refresh your memory, you made a statement that REDARC REQUESTS and REQUIRES etc etc... where is the proof”

Nn, I have never, ever used those words at all, now you are getting really paranoid, please post a link to confirm!!

Nudenut posted this followup; “the reply i recieved from Redarc was that a Batttery Manufacturer stated it was best, this does not mean mandatory or a requirement of Redarc”
Nn, don’t you believe it would be better to manufacturer a product that is actually endorsed by battery manufacturers?

Mainey, you did say that redarc specifies
see a reply by you in this thread somewhere where in you made the statement:

"why do you act against the specific written advise of redarc and fit two different batteries when redarc themselves specify their system should only be used with two identical batteries in their technical specifications,

I ask again ..where is the proof that redarc specifies it!!!!

I do believe that manufacturers endorse others products for spin offs!
not just because it works best!!!!!!!!!after all thats why you support that energy hungry fridges while most others support less energy hungry ones....eh? I know I know reefer arent the best!!! and I agree

Nudenut
you are so one eyed under those blue glasses you can't even see the post:

(Quote) Mad Dog (Victoria) posted this followup 2

ok Mainey I'm home now with the INSTRUCTIONS in FRONT of ME and to refresh your memory IT STATES "We recommend the use of similar style batteries in the one installation" ...(end quote)

Nn, if you remove the glasses will you will see the facts, well maybe not.

I have not posted 'reefer are the best'.... only relevant information confirming technical specifications, indicating that statement, but that is another topic!

go back on holdays!

Wok
The point of the discussion is;
IF or NOT a solenoid/isolator product is stated to work on two entirely different, UNequal and DISsimilar styles or types of batteries by their respective distributors.

One I mentioned, there are others, states their system is guaranteed to definitely work, and another states "We recommend the use of similar style batteries in the one installation" on their technical specifications information sheet, as has been independently confirmed on this thread!

However, they show an image of two ‘different’ batteries on the net, which you see as an incentive prior to purchasing, and then advise that the batteries must be ‘identical’ only when you have purchased the product.

uncle
Good move,
(Quote)"Hi guys I've just got off the emails to cheifs at Redarc"(end quote)

Can you post their written email reply here, please?

They will get it tomorrow, we should see it Thursday nite.... ?

Optimistically it will be a definitive declaration that is not contradictory to their technical specifications sheet, -0R- the illustration on their website :-(

uncle,
are you going to paste the reply sent to you, from redarc, or not.. ?

it should not take them from 26th Jan, till 2nd Feb, just to send you a reply, should it ??

>Hello Laurie
>
>Thanks for your email.
>
>In our discussions with a large battery manufacturer it was commented
>that it is best to use two identical batteries in a dual battery system.
>In practice however many of our customers are using two differing
>batteries (cranking battery and a deep cycle battery) and (like you)
>their systems have successfully operated over many years.
>
>Kind regards
>
>Anthony Kittel
>Managing Director
>REDARC Electronics
>21 Heath Street
>(P.O. Box 36)
>Lonsdale South Australia 5160
>Tel: + 61 8 8186 5633
>Fax: +61 8 8186 5644
>Email: askittel@redarc.com.au
>Web: www.redarc.com.au

Sorry to have to do that to ya mainey but couldnt help seeing a fool drive himself deeper into the mud,pardon the pun!!!ha ha ha ha.Why is it also that when some one asks you for some thing ie,some tech info on a dual battery system....you can only do as much as direct them to another manufacturers web site,I tend to agree with Nudenut and you are full of crap.You sit in the backblocks shouting like a small man does as if you were a school teacher on holidays...or maybe its a case of you just dont have any mates to share quality time with do you??You sad sad case.

uncle,
you have been advised what every thinking person with any battery knowledge already knows, when you wire two batteries in parallel, as happens using a bi-metal solenoid, the batteries must be ‘identical’ as is recommended by Redarc in their own technical specifications information and as is also stated in the E-mail sent to you.

(Quote)
>
>In our discussions with a large battery manufacturer it was commented
>that it is BEST to use two IDENTICAL batteries in a dual battery system.
(end quote)

Uncle, when two ‘different’ batteries ie; a genuine Deep Cycle and Start battery are used, the larger of the two batteries, generally the DC battery, discharges into the smaller Crank battery every time you start your vehicle, causing it to be in a continuous state of under charge because they recharge at a much slower rate, and premature failure, that is the main reason guys like the two Crank battery system, because they charge at similar rates, however the auxiliary does not have the same Deep Cycling ability.

uncle,
This is a copy of an email I sent to redarc in reply to your post some weeks ago.
yes, my email is asking a very direct question and seeking an equally direct answer, however to date no reply, is it simply because redarc would have to admit that one of their advertising statements is not true.....

"Anthony Kittel,
I'm requesting information recently posted on a 4x4 forum.
The question is;
your isolator technical/installation sheet recommends the two batteries should be 'similar' however your website shows and also names a Deep Cycle battery and also a Cranking battery, which all battery manufacturers claim are not 'similar' in their intended use, one being for starting and the other slow deep discharge?

I believe your statement could be considered contradictory if not misleading, I eagerly await your reply"

According to my email trace system it was read within 24 hours of being sent.
Don't you think if redarc had nothing to hide and actually believed their own advertising blurb, they would have advised me I was wrong?

Lets face it, they have told you "it is best to use two identical batteries" which in fact means NOT two 'different' batteries!

Maybe because they are both the same colour, black, means they are 'identical'

Recieved this email from redarc today within hours of posting above.

(Quote) In answer to your question:-
In our discussions with a large battery manufacturer it was commented that it is IDEAL to use two IDENTICAL batteries in a dual battery system and therefore we pass that information on to our customers. In practice however, the large majority of our customers are using two differing batteries (cranking battery and a deep cycle battery) and their systems have and continue to successfully operate over many years.

We are UPDATING our website and we will REMOVE the confusion.

Thanks for letting me know.(end quote)

Coops,
the Rotronics RDC12M is a genuine 2 stage independent charging system and is basically unsurpassed as an isolator/charger, as it actually recharges each battery individually and separately, not in parallel, as does almost all other systems, and yes, it is superior to the Piranha system also, see I’m not biased, LoL.