OT speeding fine

Geez' never heard of anyone getting done in a caravan park before. Can only assume speeding in the park is a problem if the cops are involved. First thought that comes to my mind is do the police actually have legal authority to enter and issue fines on private property??? Also, is the posted speed limit on private property such as CVP, car parks etc a legally enforcable limit???

:o) Melissa

Hi,

Is it issued by the police, or a ranger if so write a letter to infringement processing people, especially if you have a good driving record

I'd write to the police minister (I think they just turfed the dipstick responsible for the western ring road fiasco). Do the people of Victoria really want mindless police alienating drivers in this way?

Blue, incrementally 4kph over the limit at 100 is childs play but at a limit of 8 kph it is a 50% increase. From twice walking pace to three times walking pace. I think it will be very difficult for the police to enforce it and it sounds more like bluff in what I thought was a lot lower than what was set to be legally enforceable limits. I say that advisably though bearing in mind it is a walking and play area, where cars are not the advised method of transport but it is difficult to get in without one. Your point is valid that your speedometer calibration is probably way out at that speed. I wonder the radar and it's calibrated speeds?

I will talk to a couple of the shire councillors in the area to get more knowledge. I have heard a little of one of the police chiefs in the area though - from people who know him. It sounds bloodyminded enough. It is bloodyminded enough for Bracks to try to make an example of.

Blue,

Writing a letter won't cost anything.

Is the gun accuarate at that speed. I know when the QLD cops, about ten years ago, started enforcing boat speed limits of 4 or 5 knots (around 8 to 10 km/h) in rivers the guns had to be recalibrated.

Demand proof that the gun is a legitimate speed measuring device. They'll say it is and you then ask again for proof. Get an opinion from RMIT or similar etc. Write to the Minister, your local member, the Ombudsman, Radio Stations or anyone else you can think of.

Give 'em hell. This is just plain bloody ridiculous.

Cheers,

Jim.

Take it to court.

The _only_ way this kind of irresponsible behaviour by the police and government is going to be curtailed is if people have the courage to fight it. If 50% of these silly speeding fines were fought in the courts it would clog the system up so badly it would be unusable and also let government know the public will _not_ be walked all over. Trouble is... in Australia the public is happy to let it's governments do just that.

There is no legal requirement for your speedometer to be accurate below 40kph. So I am somewhat mystified how you are supposed to judge your speed. Was the speed limit signage in place at the correct locations? I very much doubt standard radar set-ups are intended to be used at 8kph - accuracy? (I can put you in touch with an expert in this field). Was there something else in the radar's field of view which may have caused a false reading? Your radiator fan? A child on a bike? A running dog!! Or perhaps a stationary pig?

Stupidity at it's height - but encouraged by the apathy of the public.

Fight it! And let all the media you can know about it.

Mike Harding

how much was the fine?
that's ridiculous! i'd be writing a letter and see how it goes!..
if they don't give in... you did the crime.. you pay the fine..!

Blue,

Don't muck around with local council & other local authorities....get onto 3AW or A Current Affair.....TV & radio are the best media to get things changed. They will pick up this as an lead story and run with it. Be prepared to go to court with it....the judge will most likely let you off with a warning and the cops will get a foot up the.....for wasting the courts time. You should be ok.

feral

Immaculate Discovery Td5 99

Hi Blue
I would ask the question on how you are meant to accurately judge your speed. I would think most cars do not have a mark for 8 km/h.
Only seems fair to ask the question

If you are a member of an AA assosiation you should be able to get legal advice from them on such matters. I have done so with the RAA south aust 2wice

Blue,

Firstly, write a letter to the relevant authority. In NSW, it would the Infringement Processing Bureau. Does Vic have an equivalent?

You need to -

1. acknowledge what occured.
2. state the case that there is no way for you to know what 8km/h is in your vehicle as the speedo does not register below 15km/h and
3. request that the infringement be reviewed with a view to cancelling it.

Keep the letter in a calm and neutral tone.

If you're a member of RACV, then seek their legal department's view on it as well.

The authorities have to be reasonable on this one. If you were doing over 15, then you'd have no excuse as your speed would clearly register it. I think you have a good case, even with the two previous speeding fines.

You have nothing to lose by writing a letter.

pay your fine and be done with it.
were there any other people/cars that got fined in similar location on that day?
also.. did you ask to see the "12kph" on his speedo gun.?

Well, I'm going against the popular opinion on this one. One of my pet peeves is people speeding in carparks, especially when they're busy. It's such a dangerous situation for young kids that that are not always directly supervised, especially in caravan parks. I like the signs that say 'Walking Pace Only' because it's a good reminder of the speed required and why. Just treat it as dead slow and no-one will have any problems.

That said, if you were done for 12kph it sounds like you were at least trying to do the right thing, unlike many others. This is one of those situations where whatever the police do it will be wrong in someone's eyes. Maybe they should be allowed to use their judgement and charge people with driving without due care or even dangerous driving. I wish you luck in fighting it, but remember why the limit is there in the first place.

Cheers,

Spanner

Blue
Was the park council , private , or part of a large chain ?? . Also how many kids were warned for not wearing bike helmets? .I have been involved in the park industry for a few years and the problem with helmets has always been a much bigger issue than someone doing 12kph . In my opinion it is the park managers responsability to warn people staying in the park if they are doing the wrong thing ie: speeding , helmuts , anti social behaviour , noise -- the list goes on. If you have paid to stay there it is up to the manager to deal with it.

Blue,

It would be worth challenging it along the lines you have suggested in that your speedo doesn't read that low. If your tickets are the same as QLD, then there is a section that will allow you to challenge the event so take that option. That is the correct process to follow if you are not satisfied with the situation.

The advice about not being able to pinch you below a certain speed is wrong and in fact 25kph limits in some areas are enforceable by police so keep that in mind. Police can also enforce driving with undue care and attention so this also needs to be considered.

If you get your chance to go before a magistrate just give careful thought to how you explain the siutation to the court. Do not at any time admit you may have been going over the posted limit. I have seen occasions where people for example have been cited for say 120kph in a 100kph zone and when they go to court they say the ticket is wrong and that they were not doing 120 but were doing 110. The magistrate has then had them processed for speeding anyway.

I would think your explanation needs to revolve around the speedo in the vehicle as once personal actions become involved, you can find it difficult.

The whole issue of speed enforcement is huge and I think everyone sees it as a revenue raiser that's for sure. The one thing that can't be denied is that young kids feature very largely in pedestrian struck data and a number of them are hit at slow speeds. I'm not suggesting that it is always the fault of the driver as we know how kids can just come out of nowhere etc but they certainly feature prominently in the data. I have been to enough of these accidents to know that is the case.

Another question that was raised is why were police using radar there. Was it revenue raising or was it in response to a number of complaints about speed in the area. While I don't know the answer to this I just want to raise the issue as it is very easy at times for us all to immediately jump to the suggestion of revenue raising but there could be other reasons they were there.

Hope this helps a bit.

Cheers

Brian

1) Spread the name of the park so nobody on earth stays there again..
2) send the manager a copy of the URL of this thread to see how successful his business will become.
3) Contact the scum TV shows current affair etc and radio stations, get people talking about it.
4) Fight it like Kostya...

Blue

if I were you I'd write a letter to try and have the fine withdrawn but if that fails then just save yourself the hassle and pay the fine. A lot of people will say fight it but it's not them that will spend hours on writing letters and risk hundrads of dollars on lawyers and courts. The pseed limit I'm sure was there for a reason and at the end of the day you have to honestly ask yourself if you knew you were speeding. What did your speedo say? as I'm sure you'll have to show that if all this goes to court. Also if your speedo is innacurate your biff is with the car manufacturer and not the council / cops etc.

As you said, you were too busy watching out for kids etc to look at your speedo. Therefore you were driving too fast for the situation.

R.

interestin post from outerlimits

I'd be fighting that one. ADR 18/02 is the Australian Design Rule that governs the accuracy for the disply of your speedometer. The max error allowable is 10% but this part of the rule only applies to speeds over 40kph.

As the is no mandated accuracy below this speed it is possible the speedo was reading 12 kph and the actual speed was 20 kph.

It would be of no use quoting Australian standards for the speedo's as the state police just make up the rules as they go along anyway. If the AUST stands. had to be followed then all the fines issued in VIC for doing 4 and 5km's over the limit would be illegal. I think this is just a another case of the cops tring to get a quota up.

there would probably be little point writing letters to try and have the fine rescinded as that is not how it works you will be advised that if you wish to challange the fine then dont pay it and wait for your day in court. A freind of mine was fined driving without a liscense even though he had one and produced it. He requested the fine be rejected but still had to go to court.
Parking fines are a bit different. I had one rescinded after a letter for parking in disabled bays at the shopping centre near footy park. I argued that seeing as I had to pay to park there because it was beuing used as footy park carpark on a sunday (centre was shut) then the handycap area didnt apply as footy park had proper bays near the oval. Got a letter back stating that even though the fine was correct they would let me off - this time

If you want to fight you'll be doing it for the principle and not the money because you'll pay a lot more then the cost of the fine even if you win.

here's something that may interest you.

alsothis could be important

ADR 18/03 supersedes ADR 18/02

.....An important distinction of the new version is that the speedometer can no longer indicate a speed slower than the actual speed, and therefore, should provide better protection against inadvertent speeding.

So... you could argue in court that there was a problem with ADR 18/02 and speedo innaccuracy, hence the revision. Just get a good lawyer. Don't think of doing this by yourself.

R.

Gday Blue,
Last year i was given fined and lost 3 points for exceeding the speed limit,however,the only evidence that the police had of this happening was a statement from a lady driving in FRONT of me who said i was doing 12 k's over,(i later found out that her brother is a top cop about half an down the road at the TMU). So faced with losing five points (as i was also accused of overtaking on the wrong side of the road) i decided to take it to court,i got onto a lawyer and he told me that the fines were Bull**it,so i posted in my letter requesting to take further action,then a few weeks later 2 officers come to my house and decide that because im not there they will tell my parents all about it,they also said that they would be happy to face the matter in court as "They always win",and i would then be faced with paying both my legal fees and theirs. I could not afford this so i backed down and just paid the fines and shutup,but in hindsight i had wished that i had gone ahead and taken it to court....but anyway.
I know how it feels to be faced with paying for such a ridicolous thing,so mate i hope that you really let tme have it, and as someone already said take it to ACA or Today tonight or similair cos they love these kinds of stories and i would be great to hear someone finally taking the police on.
good on ya mate and good luck
rob

Truckster,
yes i did speak to a lawyer about it,and he laughed and said that it was all just bullsh*t, but the officer who gave me the ticket basically told me to take it to court because they (vic police) always win,and i would certaintly lose my license as they had more things i could be booked for (driving endangering life and they could also add another few k's over the limit on the ticket but they were trying to go easy on me)the long and short of it is that i could not afford to lose my licence let alone pay both legal fees for myself as well as Victoria Police,i think that it is totally ridiculous that they can do this without proof but i wasnt able to provide proof that i didnt do it so who is a judge going to listen to? some young idiot or a copper....

Gday Mike,
Mate i couldnt agree more with you,there are a lot of good coppers but unfourtanetly there are the ones who seem to like make life hell for everybody,more often than not it is the young blokes just out of cop school who want to push you around,and make up their own little stories about what is the law, knowing that 99 percent of the time people will just accept it. I have come across plenty of "good" coppers who can say "look you were doing this,dont do it again" without throwing the book at me and treating me like sh*t. I have a lot of respect for police officers and what they have to put up with in their jobs but this isnt a reason to put other people down and fine them for some ridiculous little thing.

And the police are the first ones to have a hissy fit about their bad reputation... What a crock ofbleep.
I probally would have ended up in the back of a paddy wagon if I were you because I would have been going off my absolute trolly at the wanker.

Take it as far as you possibly can, we need to stop this kind of beurocratic nonsense. I wonder how many people will just pay the fine and not even think about it. Their you guys some MORE revenue for you. How is picking up someone doing 12km/hr going to save lives, my god, has it really got this bad??
Did you here that just as many people in WA died in the water this year as they did on the roads... Is'nt it strange how the only states that increase their road toll are the ones that have dropped their speed limits over the last 2 years...

I drove my work car from my house on Saturday morning with one hand on the steering wheel, used the clutch once on the way there and once on the way back. (to start off in second). I never touched the brakes and never put my right arm inside the car. It started off because I was just being slack (there were no other cars around, early in the morn), but then became a little bit of an experiment.

I did not speed, and I did not go under the speed limit (50km/h). The little 1.3L Toyota Echo was quite happy doing 50km/h in second gear for short periods and engine braking was enough not to use the brakes for cornering (as it corners like it's on rails).

What does all this mean (apart from the fact that I'm an idiot!!)?? That the enforced speed limits having nothing to do with limitations on drivers or vehicles or anything to do with saving lives, they are just their to make money for the government.

Do you see the 18 year old kid in his V8 giving twobleeps about the 50km/h limit, of course not he does 100km/h anyway, the only people it effectes are the people trying to do the right thing anyway.

A speed limit that can be exceeded in first gear in a Toyota Echo 1.3L girly car is a rediculous speed limit IMHO.

Oh yeah and one other thing, what the hell are they thinking fining your for speeding while overtaking!?!?!

What are you supposed to overtake a car doing 80km/h by doing 100m/h yourself??? Yeah that's saving lives........................

One way to confuse the cops if pulled over is to get out of your car first and walk uo to the police car takingdown the number and pretend to check their tyres and roo bar and the general condition of the car if they have one, taking notes all the time, ask the cop for his name, number and station, writing all this down, before you let the copper say anything and before you show him your license and he has a chance to take down any particular. This usually puts them right out of their stride especially the young ones.

Keep it simple.

1. Wait for the reminder.
2. Reply saying you will take it to court and you will be defending the infringement. In point form briefly state your reasons.
3. Basically you want to stall & stuff them around as much as you can and you may never hear from them again. It's a bluff game.
4. Insert spine in back. :)

They don't like turning up to court all the time and most times let them slide. I have been waiting to hear for 2+ yrs on one.

JC

Forget the speed they caught you doing, that is almost irrelivant. The law is very clear as to where & where not speed camera's can be set up. If there is a second car, bike, tree or even a sign within a certain distance the reading will be invalid. I'm sure in a caravan park something will be too close. A friendly copper should be able to get you that imfo. Then just send your letter explaining that you will oppose the fine due to the officers not following correct opperating proceedure.
Cheers Craig.............

Well done Blue! I just heard Red Symons on 774ABC Melbourne read out almost word for word your post above. Then asked tha Police Media fellow his opinion and then went to callback.

Much the same response as here, the Walloper had no sympathy, nor did he suggest and action for recourse, and overwhelming was that it should be contested, was the speed limit GAZETTED etc etc. Then it deteriorated into a gab fest about high and mighty people putting in a whole bunch more "facts" than were there.

To me the important point is that you were travelling at an appropriate speed (i.e. slow) and watching the road so you didnt skittle and kids/dogs etc. Also interesting point, any kids on bikes there would have broken that speed limit anyway, even kids running would be going faster than 8.

Cant wait to see what happens here, I do know someone was chasing your phone no, so if youhavent heard, member message me and I can pass it on to the peron requesting it.

Mind you I was sleeping in....and when this came on the radio, well that was the end of sleep!!!

Any chance of a scan or photostat copy of the fine ??
All sounds a bit sus.....