OT speeding fine

Submitted: Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 at 00:31
ThreadID: 19805 Views:3607 Replies:31 FollowUps:47
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So I've been giving the speeding fine I received at Port Fairy a few dirty looks the last couple of days, hating the thought of paying it... I got done for 12kph in the 8kph zone at the caravan park we stayed in. The first marking on my speedo indicates approx 15kph, the first actual number is 20kph... Would you fight it on these grounds or just pay it and move on???
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Reply By: Member - Melissa - Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 at 00:37

Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 at 00:37
Geez' never heard of anyone getting done in a caravan park before. Can only assume speeding in the park is a problem if the cops are involved. First thought that comes to my mind is do the police actually have legal authority to enter and issue fines on private property??? Also, is the posted speed limit on private property such as CVP, car parks etc a legally enforcable limit???

:o) Melissa
AnswerID: 95067

Follow Up By: Member - Blue (VIC) - Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 at 00:49

Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 at 00:49
Hi Melissa, first time I've seen them in a CV park too... Hot rod show in town that weekend and a pretty heavy police presence. They were harrassing campers all weekend. As the CV park also incorporates the local footy field, the road in is considered a public road and as such the limit is enforceable.
Blue
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FollowupID: 353900

Reply By: Brad and His Disco - Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 at 02:05

Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 at 02:05
Hi,

Is it issued by the police, or a ranger if so write a letter to infringement processing people, especially if you have a good driving record
AnswerID: 95069

Follow Up By: Member - Blue (VIC) - Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 at 09:32

Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 at 09:32
was issued by the boys in blue, my driving record is questionable... Last year I got 2 fines for speeding while overtaking.
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FollowupID: 353914

Reply By: Bob of KAOS - Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 at 06:38

Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 at 06:38
I'd write to the police minister (I think they just turfed the dipstick responsible for the western ring road fiasco). Do the people of Victoria really want mindless police alienating drivers in this way?
AnswerID: 95071

Reply By: Member - JohnR (Vic) - Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 at 07:11

Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 at 07:11
Blue, incrementally 4kph over the limit at 100 is childs play but at a limit of 8 kph it is a 50% increase. From twice walking pace to three times walking pace. I think it will be very difficult for the police to enforce it and it sounds more like bluff in what I thought was a lot lower than what was set to be legally enforceable limits. I say that advisably though bearing in mind it is a walking and play area, where cars are not the advised method of transport but it is difficult to get in without one. Your point is valid that your speedometer calibration is probably way out at that speed. I wonder the radar and it's calibrated speeds?

I will talk to a couple of the shire councillors in the area to get more knowledge. I have heard a little of one of the police chiefs in the area though - from people who know him. It sounds bloodyminded enough. It is bloodyminded enough for Bracks to try to make an example of.
Cheers,
Who?
John

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AnswerID: 95072

Follow Up By: Member - Blue (VIC) - Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 at 09:35

Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 at 09:35
The biggest problem with the area was the children and pedestrians, too busy watching everyone else to pay any attention to the speedo.
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Reply By: Member - Jimbo (VIC) - Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 at 07:33

Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 at 07:33
Blue,

Writing a letter won't cost anything.

Is the gun accuarate at that speed. I know when the QLD cops, about ten years ago, started enforcing boat speed limits of 4 or 5 knots (around 8 to 10 km/h) in rivers the guns had to be recalibrated.

Demand proof that the gun is a legitimate speed measuring device. They'll say it is and you then ask again for proof. Get an opinion from RMIT or similar etc. Write to the Minister, your local member, the Ombudsman, Radio Stations or anyone else you can think of.

Give 'em hell. This is just plain bloody ridiculous.

Cheers,

Jim.
AnswerID: 95073

Follow Up By: Member - Blue (VIC) - Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 at 09:48

Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 at 09:48
I think when I get home from work, I'll start writing... Didn't expect to get such a response from the crew...
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FollowupID: 353916

Follow Up By: drivesafe - Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 at 15:13

Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 at 15:13
Hi Blue, before you do anything, first phone your equivalent to the NRMA or RACQ. They will have a legal section that will give you the exact info you need, then PHONE your local member and irrespective of what they say, inform them while you are discussing the issue with them, that you are also going to the press. This some times puts a fire under them.
Then contact the press and the best way to do this is to write out what happened and put in your opinions and the fact that you have aired this incident on the net already and that you have received a lot of support from the net. This will give the media the idea straightaway that there is a story in it. Next go through the different media sites on the net and e-mail the letter to as many as you can find, including the local media.
AND then keep us all informed.
Cheers and best of luck.
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FollowupID: 353958

Reply By: Mike Harding - Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 at 08:08

Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 at 08:08
Take it to court.

The _only_ way this kind of irresponsible behaviour by the police and government is going to be curtailed is if people have the courage to fight it. If 50% of these silly speeding fines were fought in the courts it would clog the system up so badly it would be unusable and also let government know the public will _not_ be walked all over. Trouble is... in Australia the public is happy to let it's governments do just that.

There is no legal requirement for your speedometer to be accurate below 40kph. So I am somewhat mystified how you are supposed to judge your speed. Was the speed limit signage in place at the correct locations? I very much doubt standard radar set-ups are intended to be used at 8kph - accuracy? (I can put you in touch with an expert in this field). Was there something else in the radar's field of view which may have caused a false reading? Your radiator fan? A child on a bike? A running dog!! Or perhaps a stationary pig?

Stupidity at it's height - but encouraged by the apathy of the public.

Fight it! And let all the media you can know about it.

Mike Harding
AnswerID: 95074

Reply By: Member - Mozza (NSW) - Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 at 08:09

Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 at 08:09
how much was the fine?
that's ridiculous! i'd be writing a letter and see how it goes!..
if they don't give in... you did the crime.. you pay the fine..!
AnswerID: 95075

Follow Up By: Mike Harding - Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 at 08:47

Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 at 08:47
>if they don't give in... you did the crime.. you pay the fine..!

Terrific idea - let's encourage bad law which is badly enforced.

Tell me Mozza - is _every_ law any government makes just, right, proper and should always be obeyed?

Mike Harding
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FollowupID: 353912

Follow Up By: Member - Mozza (NSW) - Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 at 09:01

Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 at 09:01
in no way shape or form am i encouraging breaking the law or enforcing it in a negative manner.
"what if" he happenened to hit a child? (just by chance) .. do you think the Police would enforce the law then?!

i was simply stating that he did the wrong thing, and should pay the consequences. plain and simple.

if they start letting people off for small infringements like this..... will it not just be the beginning of the snowball effect ?!
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FollowupID: 353913

Follow Up By: MrBitchi - Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 at 09:56

Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 at 09:56
The point is, Mozza, that the speed was so low that there is no way he could reasonably be expected to know he was speeding as the speedo won't register accurately at that speed.
I'd defy anyone to prove their speedo is accurate at that speed and when driving in an area full of pedestrians you should have both eyes on the road looking out for kids, not on your (inacurrate) speedo.

Cheers, John.
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FollowupID: 353917

Follow Up By: Member - Blue (VIC) - Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 at 09:59

Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 at 09:59
$130 odd, I'm not one for shirking responsibility... I managed to get 2 fines for speeding last year, both while overtaking. Just paid them and got on with it as I clearly knew I was speeding. This one annoys me as it seems to be a double edged sword... If I'd driven in with my head buried in the dash trying to work out where 8kph actually was, I would probably now be charged with manslaughter after knocking down someones kid. As it was, I was so focussed on the kids playing on the roadside that I didn't pay attention to the speedo. Yes I exceeded the limit by 50% but that still only constitutes 30% of the recommended speed limit around schools.

I'll test the waters tonight and write some letters...
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FollowupID: 353918

Follow Up By: Truckster (Vic) - Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 at 11:44

Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 at 11:44
...If they start letting people off for small infringements like this..... will it not just be the beginning of the snowball effect ?!

You cant honestly believe that?
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Follow Up By: Patrol22 (Queanbeyan - Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 at 13:26

Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 at 13:26
I was in a van/camping park a few weeks back where the posted speed limit was 'Walking Pace' - Hope they don't import Vic coppers to keep a check on this ....probably have to select low range to go slow enough.
Like everyone else I agree that this matter should be brought to the attention of the responsible State Government minister - we can certainly do without over-zealous boys and girls in blue.
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FollowupID: 353948

Reply By: Feral - Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 at 09:49

Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 at 09:49
Blue,

Don't muck around with local council & other local authorities....get onto 3AW or A Current Affair.....TV & radio are the best media to get things changed. They will pick up this as an lead story and run with it. Be prepared to go to court with it....the judge will most likely let you off with a warning and the cops will get a foot up the.....for wasting the courts time. You should be ok.

feral

Immaculate Discovery Td5 99
AnswerID: 95093

Follow Up By: Member - Blue (VIC) - Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 at 10:01

Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 at 10:01
I'll write first then burn them in the media if I'm not satisfied with the outcome.
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FollowupID: 353919

Follow Up By: Bonz (Vic) - Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 at 12:41

Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 at 12:41
I agree Blue, write and give them your explanation, lots of good words in this thread, and then of they don't see commonsense then approach the media. Would peeve me no end of someone went to the media and I had to sort out the crap fight, that wouldnt have happened if theyd come to me first........

Try and then see, Mike says it above, this is a personification of stupidity in terms of speeding fines, and will do the Boys in Blue no good servcie in terms of public perception at all. But give them a change first,Write to Christine Rixon and to Police Minister whoever Braxxsy nobbled Haermeyer with..... Also write to the fine mob and tell them you are contesting the fine, so they dont commence any action.

good luck, by the way, dont speed thru Terang either they'l nail u faster than a greased builder with a hair triggered nail gun
.
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FollowupID: 353944

Reply By: Member - Crazie (VIC) - Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 at 09:51

Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 at 09:51
Hi Blue
I would ask the question on how you are meant to accurately judge your speed. I would think most cars do not have a mark for 8 km/h.
Only seems fair to ask the question
AnswerID: 95094

Follow Up By: Member - Blue (VIC) - Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 at 10:02

Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 at 10:02
The question is about to be asked... BTW nice collage in the rig pic.
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Reply By: Member - Davoe (WA) - Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 at 10:09

Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 at 10:09
If you are a member of an AA assosiation you should be able to get legal advice from them on such matters. I have done so with the RAA south aust 2wice
AnswerID: 95100

Reply By: Savvas - Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 at 10:14

Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 at 10:14
Blue,

Firstly, write a letter to the relevant authority. In NSW, it would the Infringement Processing Bureau. Does Vic have an equivalent?

You need to -

1. acknowledge what occured.
2. state the case that there is no way for you to know what 8km/h is in your vehicle as the speedo does not register below 15km/h and
3. request that the infringement be reviewed with a view to cancelling it.

Keep the letter in a calm and neutral tone.

If you're a member of RACV, then seek their legal department's view on it as well.

The authorities have to be reasonable on this one. If you were doing over 15, then you'd have no excuse as your speed would clearly register it. I think you have a good case, even with the two previous speeding fines.

You have nothing to lose by writing a letter.
AnswerID: 95101

Follow Up By: marcus - Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 at 18:00

Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 at 18:00
Spot on Savvas,
Last year whilst travelling on the Hume i came up to Craigieburn which required cars to slow to 80kph.Nothing around so big wide open road i pegged it back to 92kph.Letter in mail claims 12 over and pay the powers that be $200 and lose three points.A mate phoned as i was looking for my cheque book and asked what i was doing.Contributing to the states funds i replied.He said invest 50c and send a letter coz i have just been let off.It goes like this.
name
address
lic no
infringement no
I acknowledge that i was travelling at ? k's over the limit on ? road and have been driving for a long time with no loss of points.I respectfully request if you could look at this infringement and at your discretion to waive this offence.They let me off .
I believe you to have a stronger case than mine.
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FollowupID: 353988

Follow Up By: Savvas - Friday, Jan 28, 2005 at 07:37

Friday, Jan 28, 2005 at 07:37
Blue has a great case, I'd 99% guarantee that he'll get off with a caution at most.

I got caught doing 56km/h in a 40km/h school zone last August. Only hassle was that it 3 minutes earlier, it was a 60km/h zone. So my case was that I didn't realise the school zone limit had just started and I was travelling under the regular speed limit. I wrote to them acknowledging what had happened, stated the situation and requested a review.

Got a letter back in two weeks saying the infringement is cancelled, no fine payable, no points lost, but a caution will go on your record. Fine by me.
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FollowupID: 354073

Reply By: Member - Mozza (NSW) - Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 at 10:16

Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 at 10:16
pay your fine and be done with it.
were there any other people/cars that got fined in similar location on that day?
also.. did you ask to see the "12kph" on his speedo gun.?
AnswerID: 95102

Follow Up By: Member - Blue (VIC) - Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 at 10:35

Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 at 10:35
Over the course of the weekend I reckon I saw a dozen or so tickets handed out. Most of what I saw was guys coming in at what looked to be closer to 30kph. It was a roof mounted job, 12 clearly displayed on the pretty screen.
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FollowupID: 353925

Reply By: Spanner - Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 at 10:19

Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 at 10:19
Well, I'm going against the popular opinion on this one. One of my pet peeves is people speeding in carparks, especially when they're busy. It's such a dangerous situation for young kids that that are not always directly supervised, especially in caravan parks. I like the signs that say 'Walking Pace Only' because it's a good reminder of the speed required and why. Just treat it as dead slow and no-one will have any problems.

That said, if you were done for 12kph it sounds like you were at least trying to do the right thing, unlike many others. This is one of those situations where whatever the police do it will be wrong in someone's eyes. Maybe they should be allowed to use their judgement and charge people with driving without due care or even dangerous driving. I wish you luck in fighting it, but remember why the limit is there in the first place.

Cheers,

Spanner
AnswerID: 95104

Follow Up By: Flash - Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 at 12:11

Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 at 12:11
12kph is slow.
I too have a problem with people speeding in parks, but I am not talking about 12kph.
Could the average driver judge 12kph vs 8kph- no.
If the police want to earn themselves a major image problem, then this is how to achieve that. Pulling people over, and a five minute chat, would have a far more positive outcome.

If the cops want everybody to hate their guts- then go for it!
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FollowupID: 353940

Follow Up By: Bob of KAOS - Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 at 14:54

Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 at 14:54
The 8 kph derives from the old 5 mph and is a purely arbitrary limit. 5 mph was set many years ago when brakes tyres etc were not as efficient as they are now. 12 kph is very slow, and safer than someone doing 8 kph and watching their speedo, or someone doing 40 kph.
A half sane copper (and there are plenty of reasonable police around) would have just waved to slow down a bit and not done anything else. 12 kph is not speeding.
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FollowupID: 353955

Follow Up By: Spanner - Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 at 16:47

Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 at 16:47
You're missing the point guys. Like I said, treat it as 'dead slow'. You don't need to watch the speedo, but you do need to watch for very inattentive kids racing and tearing around in what is essentailly their turf. 8kmh is the UPPER limit. It's a pretty brisk walk so it's pretty easy to judge. I'd imagine the police are there because of some past complaints. Of course if they didn't police it they they would be in the poo with someone else, wouldn't they.

Cheers
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FollowupID: 353971

Follow Up By: pjchris - Sunday, Jan 30, 2005 at 23:12

Sunday, Jan 30, 2005 at 23:12
Went out today with the GPS in the Paj...Put it in D...Stays in first.

Without even touching the accelerator it was idling along in first and doing 9 km/h. Speeding without even touching the Accelerator!

So I guess I should just drive around the parks with my foot on the brake all the time......

Peter
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Reply By: steve-h - Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 at 11:18

Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 at 11:18
Blue
Was the park council , private , or part of a large chain ?? . Also how many kids were warned for not wearing bike helmets? .I have been involved in the park industry for a few years and the problem with helmets has always been a much bigger issue than someone doing 12kph . In my opinion it is the park managers responsability to warn people staying in the park if they are doing the wrong thing ie: speeding , helmuts , anti social behaviour , noise -- the list goes on. If you have paid to stay there it is up to the manager to deal with it.
AnswerID: 95110

Follow Up By: Member - Blue (VIC) - Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 at 15:35

Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 at 15:35
Council park but the road in is a public road, the only vehicle entrance to the local footy field which happens to be in the middle of the park. Kid next to us got nailed for no helmet, that was good to see.
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FollowupID: 353963

Reply By: Brian B (QLD) - Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 at 11:33

Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 at 11:33
Blue,

It would be worth challenging it along the lines you have suggested in that your speedo doesn't read that low. If your tickets are the same as QLD, then there is a section that will allow you to challenge the event so take that option. That is the correct process to follow if you are not satisfied with the situation.

The advice about not being able to pinch you below a certain speed is wrong and in fact 25kph limits in some areas are enforceable by police so keep that in mind. Police can also enforce driving with undue care and attention so this also needs to be considered.

If you get your chance to go before a magistrate just give careful thought to how you explain the siutation to the court. Do not at any time admit you may have been going over the posted limit. I have seen occasions where people for example have been cited for say 120kph in a 100kph zone and when they go to court they say the ticket is wrong and that they were not doing 120 but were doing 110. The magistrate has then had them processed for speeding anyway.

I would think your explanation needs to revolve around the speedo in the vehicle as once personal actions become involved, you can find it difficult.

The whole issue of speed enforcement is huge and I think everyone sees it as a revenue raiser that's for sure. The one thing that can't be denied is that young kids feature very largely in pedestrian struck data and a number of them are hit at slow speeds. I'm not suggesting that it is always the fault of the driver as we know how kids can just come out of nowhere etc but they certainly feature prominently in the data. I have been to enough of these accidents to know that is the case.

Another question that was raised is why were police using radar there. Was it revenue raising or was it in response to a number of complaints about speed in the area. While I don't know the answer to this I just want to raise the issue as it is very easy at times for us all to immediately jump to the suggestion of revenue raising but there could be other reasons they were there.

Hope this helps a bit.

Cheers

Brian
AnswerID: 95112

Reply By: Truckster (Vic) - Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 at 11:35

Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 at 11:35
1) Spread the name of the park so nobody on earth stays there again..
2) send the manager a copy of the URL of this thread to see how successful his business will become.
3) Contact the scum TV shows current affair etc and radio stations, get people talking about it.
4) Fight it like Kostya...
AnswerID: 95114

Reply By: Rob! - Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 at 11:45

Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 at 11:45
Blue

if I were you I'd write a letter to try and have the fine withdrawn but if that fails then just save yourself the hassle and pay the fine. A lot of people will say fight it but it's not them that will spend hours on writing letters and risk hundrads of dollars on lawyers and courts. The pseed limit I'm sure was there for a reason and at the end of the day you have to honestly ask yourself if you knew you were speeding. What did your speedo say? as I'm sure you'll have to show that if all this goes to court. Also if your speedo is innacurate your biff is with the car manufacturer and not the council / cops etc.

As you said, you were too busy watching out for kids etc to look at your speedo. Therefore you were driving too fast for the situation.

R.

AnswerID: 95115

Follow Up By: beatit - Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 at 12:33

Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 at 12:33
G'day Rob,

Sorry mate can't come to the same conclusion. The difference between 8 and 12 would be almost impossible to pick up if you were driving at a slow pace. If you were paying attention to where you are driving which I reckon is what should be happening, then this speeding infringement seems only a technicality and would hard constitute obviously driving too fast.

Kind regards
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FollowupID: 353942

Follow Up By: Rob! - Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 at 12:58

Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 at 12:58
Beatit

Yeah you're probably right. I'm just thinking what the cops lawyer might say on the day in court. If you don't have enough time to watch the road and your instruments, then slow down, or even stop.

All speedos are likely to be inaccurate at that speed but that could be irrelevant in court. for example bicycles are not required to have a speedo but still need to ride below the speed limit. There was a case in brisbane where a guy on a push bike got booked doing 64 in 40 zone.

The cops simply have to prove in court that Blue was doing over 8km/h. Once they do that it's gonna be a big uphill battle which will get drawn out, very messy AND costly. Even if it's just one day in court and you win, you lose a day of pay at work. So you're screwed either way.

Just pay the fine.
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FollowupID: 353945

Reply By: Truckster (Vic) - Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 at 12:11

Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 at 12:11
interestin post from outerlimits

I'd be fighting that one. ADR 18/02 is the Australian Design Rule that governs the accuracy for the disply of your speedometer. The max error allowable is 10% but this part of the rule only applies to speeds over 40kph.

As the is no mandated accuracy below this speed it is possible the speedo was reading 12 kph and the actual speed was 20 kph.
AnswerID: 95119

Reply By: Chucky - Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 at 13:09

Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 at 13:09
It would be of no use quoting Australian standards for the speedo's as the state police just make up the rules as they go along anyway. If the AUST stands. had to be followed then all the fines issued in VIC for doing 4 and 5km's over the limit would be illegal. I think this is just a another case of the cops tring to get a quota up.
AnswerID: 95130

Reply By: Member - Davoe (WA) - Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 at 13:56

Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 at 13:56
there would probably be little point writing letters to try and have the fine rescinded as that is not how it works you will be advised that if you wish to challange the fine then dont pay it and wait for your day in court. A freind of mine was fined driving without a liscense even though he had one and produced it. He requested the fine be rejected but still had to go to court.
Parking fines are a bit different. I had one rescinded after a letter for parking in disabled bays at the shopping centre near footy park. I argued that seeing as I had to pay to park there because it was beuing used as footy park carpark on a sunday (centre was shut) then the handycap area didnt apply as footy park had proper bays near the oval. Got a letter back stating that even though the fine was correct they would let me off - this time
AnswerID: 95136

Reply By: Rob! - Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 at 14:10

Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 at 14:10
If you want to fight you'll be doing it for the principle and not the money because you'll pay a lot more then the cost of the fine even if you win.

here's something that may interest you.

alsothis could be important

ADR 18/03 supersedes ADR 18/02

.....An important distinction of the new version is that the speedometer can no longer indicate a speed slower than the actual speed, and therefore, should provide better protection against inadvertent speeding.

So... you could argue in court that there was a problem with ADR 18/02 and speedo innaccuracy, hence the revision. Just get a good lawyer. Don't think of doing this by yourself.

R.
AnswerID: 95140

Follow Up By: Rob! - Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 at 14:24

Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 at 14:24
let me try that link again

also this could be important
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FollowupID: 353951

Reply By: Pembo - Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 at 15:13

Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 at 15:13
Gday Blue,
Last year i was given fined and lost 3 points for exceeding the speed limit,however,the only evidence that the police had of this happening was a statement from a lady driving in FRONT of me who said i was doing 12 k's over,(i later found out that her brother is a top cop about half an down the road at the TMU). So faced with losing five points (as i was also accused of overtaking on the wrong side of the road) i decided to take it to court,i got onto a lawyer and he told me that the fines were Bull**it,so i posted in my letter requesting to take further action,then a few weeks later 2 officers come to my house and decide that because im not there they will tell my parents all about it,they also said that they would be happy to face the matter in court as "They always win",and i would then be faced with paying both my legal fees and theirs. I could not afford this so i backed down and just paid the fines and shutup,but in hindsight i had wished that i had gone ahead and taken it to court....but anyway.
I know how it feels to be faced with paying for such a ridicolous thing,so mate i hope that you really let tme have it, and as someone already said take it to ACA or Today tonight or similair cos they love these kinds of stories and i would be great to hear someone finally taking the police on.
good on ya mate and good luck
rob
AnswerID: 95150

Follow Up By: Member - Davoe (WA) - Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 at 15:34

Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 at 15:34
pity you didnt take it to court, they would have had no chance my understanding is that it has to be proven you were speeding. that is why they use speed guns. they can book you just by following you but they have (or at least they used to) different speedos with 1kph increments and they have to follow you over a certain distance. I have been pulled over after doing 150kph past coppers going the other way and warned because they didnt know how fast I was going. I have also been warned for speeding by a copper who couldnt follow me far enough to get a positive speed
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FollowupID: 353961

Follow Up By: Truckster (Vic) - Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 at 15:34

Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 at 15:34
Something doesnt add up.

So you can get done for speeding by granny driving infront of you that with her expert speed opinion says you were doin 12 not 10 or 11 or 14k's over? I have more chance of getting blown by Christina Applegate than that standing up in court.

You didnt even ask a lawyer about this?

I think ive trodden in a pile of horsey manure...
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FollowupID: 353962

Follow Up By: Wombat - Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 at 16:01

Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 at 16:01
"Hello big boy - you wanted me to blow your candles out?"
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Follow Up By: Rob! - Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 at 16:25

Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 at 16:25
Hey Pembo

So were you actually speeding and overtaking on the wrong side?
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FollowupID: 353968

Reply By: Pembo - Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 at 16:25

Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 at 16:25
Truckster,
yes i did speak to a lawyer about it,and he laughed and said that it was all just bullsh*t, but the officer who gave me the ticket basically told me to take it to court because they (vic police) always win,and i would certaintly lose my license as they had more things i could be booked for (driving endangering life and they could also add another few k's over the limit on the ticket but they were trying to go easy on me)the long and short of it is that i could not afford to lose my licence let alone pay both legal fees for myself as well as Victoria Police,i think that it is totally ridiculous that they can do this without proof but i wasnt able to provide proof that i didnt do it so who is a judge going to listen to? some young idiot or a copper....
AnswerID: 95163

Follow Up By: Pembo - Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 at 16:31

Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 at 16:31
Rob!
to put it short yes i was doing about 5 k's over,which i told the officer,how that translated into 12k's over i will never know,as for the overtaking on the wrong side that was not what really happened.
I was driving behind this woman and she indicated to turn right so i went around her to the left hand side,then as i got halfway she decided she didnt want to turn anymore and then told Mr. Plod that i was overtaking her on the wrong side,(she did forget to mention that she indicated).
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FollowupID: 353970

Follow Up By: Rob! - Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 at 16:52

Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 at 16:52
In court you don't have to prove that you didn't do it. That's the principle of our legal system. THEY have to prove that you DID by using "evidence". You can then dispute that evidence.

So what did you do to piss that driver in FRONT of you off? It all sound a bit fishy if you ask me.

R.
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FollowupID: 353973

Follow Up By: Mike Harding - Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 at 17:29

Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 at 17:29
>It all sound a bit fishy if you ask me.

Maybe...?

But don't labour under any misapprehensions - many (not all) police officers will make the law up on the spot and/or adopt a very bullying attitude, particularly the lower ranks. Why not? Usually they will be backed up by another officer who will take their side and unless the "offender" goes to court the police "interpretation" of the law will never be questioned.

Keep in mind one of the major reasons many people (not all - I know some good ones) join the police force is to exercise power and control over others.

Mike Harding
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FollowupID: 353981

Follow Up By: Rob! - Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 at 17:53

Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 at 17:53
Well, I know how you guys feel. I got done once for stopping in a clearway, less then 3 seconds. Got the ticket in the mail. A year or so later I was out of pocket by a few hundrad dollars as opposed to $60 on the original fine.

R.
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FollowupID: 353986

Follow Up By: Member - Bradley- Sunday, Jan 30, 2005 at 11:41

Sunday, Jan 30, 2005 at 11:41
if the cops try it on with bullying tactics etc. take their details and contact their ESD Ethical Standards Division, if they come to your house for no good reason and try it on, ask for thier superior officer to attend, they have to oblige and then you can sort it out on the spot.

If it really turns sour contact the new OPI Office of Police Integrity.

I know some great coppers, but unfortunately there are way too many power trippers etc. who can really stuff the whole show.
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FollowupID: 354399

Reply By: Pembo - Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 at 17:54

Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 at 17:54
Gday Mike,
Mate i couldnt agree more with you,there are a lot of good coppers but unfourtanetly there are the ones who seem to like make life hell for everybody,more often than not it is the young blokes just out of cop school who want to push you around,and make up their own little stories about what is the law, knowing that 99 percent of the time people will just accept it. I have come across plenty of "good" coppers who can say "look you were doing this,dont do it again" without throwing the book at me and treating me like sh*t. I have a lot of respect for police officers and what they have to put up with in their jobs but this isnt a reason to put other people down and fine them for some ridiculous little thing.
AnswerID: 95179

Reply By: Member - Jeff M (WA) - Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 at 19:05

Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 at 19:05
And the police are the first ones to have a hissy fit about their bad reputation... What a crock ofbleep.
I probally would have ended up in the back of a paddy wagon if I were you because I would have been going off my absolute trolly at the wanker.

Take it as far as you possibly can, we need to stop this kind of beurocratic nonsense. I wonder how many people will just pay the fine and not even think about it. Their you guys some MORE revenue for you. How is picking up someone doing 12km/hr going to save lives, my god, has it really got this bad??
Did you here that just as many people in WA died in the water this year as they did on the roads... Is'nt it strange how the only states that increase their road toll are the ones that have dropped their speed limits over the last 2 years...

I drove my work car from my house on Saturday morning with one hand on the steering wheel, used the clutch once on the way there and once on the way back. (to start off in second). I never touched the brakes and never put my right arm inside the car. It started off because I was just being slack (there were no other cars around, early in the morn), but then became a little bit of an experiment.

I did not speed, and I did not go under the speed limit (50km/h). The little 1.3L Toyota Echo was quite happy doing 50km/h in second gear for short periods and engine braking was enough not to use the brakes for cornering (as it corners like it's on rails).

What does all this mean (apart from the fact that I'm an idiot!!)?? That the enforced speed limits having nothing to do with limitations on drivers or vehicles or anything to do with saving lives, they are just their to make money for the government.

Do you see the 18 year old kid in his V8 giving twobleeps about the 50km/h limit, of course not he does 100km/h anyway, the only people it effectes are the people trying to do the right thing anyway.

A speed limit that can be exceeded in first gear in a Toyota Echo 1.3L girly car is a rediculous speed limit IMHO.
AnswerID: 95195

Follow Up By: Member - Davoe (WA) - Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 at 19:29

Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 at 19:29
amazing what work cars can do. A landcruiser ute can be driven in 3rd including taking off at the lights so as to leave the gearshift hand free to eat your big mack (sometimes I miss autos)
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FollowupID: 353999

Follow Up By: Member - Bradley- Sunday, Jan 30, 2005 at 11:46

Sunday, Jan 30, 2005 at 11:46
hey Davoe, reminds me of my old work rodeo, yep work cars can do some amazing things .....
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FollowupID: 354401

Reply By: Member - Jeff M (WA) - Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 at 19:19

Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 at 19:19
Oh yeah and one other thing, what the hell are they thinking fining your for speeding while overtaking!?!?!

What are you supposed to overtake a car doing 80km/h by doing 100m/h yourself??? Yeah that's saving lives........................
AnswerID: 95202

Follow Up By: Member - Blue (VIC) - Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 at 19:59

Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 at 19:59
Overtaking must be done within the speed limit. If the car in front is doing 95 and you want to pass, you must use about 2.5k of road and remain at or below 100kph.

Can you believe I got done on the Hume just north of Coolac(NSW) both times, by the same cop, 2 months apart but only 7 minutes the difference in the time of night? I do the odd Sydney run in a semi and see the cops and mostly never speed, give me a car and it all goes out the window.
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FollowupID: 354010

Follow Up By: Member - Jeff M (WA) - Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 at 20:06

Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 at 20:06
Oh yeah, now that's saftey first. Tootle down the highway for a couple of k's on the wrong side of the road, THAT'S THE WAY TO SAVE LIVES!

Fkn idiots.

Again, I woulda ended up in the back of the paddy! LOL
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FollowupID: 354012

Reply By: Ray Bates - Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 at 19:28

Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 at 19:28
One way to confuse the cops if pulled over is to get out of your car first and walk uo to the police car takingdown the number and pretend to check their tyres and roo bar and the general condition of the car if they have one, taking notes all the time, ask the cop for his name, number and station, writing all this down, before you let the copper say anything and before you show him your license and he has a chance to take down any particular. This usually puts them right out of their stride especially the young ones.
AnswerID: 95209

Follow Up By: Member - Davoe (WA) - Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 at 19:32

Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 at 19:32
tried that once - things got "interesing", if you jump straight out your car before they do 1/2 a chance of getting yourself shot specially in victoria
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FollowupID: 354001

Follow Up By: Member - Blue (VIC) - Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 at 20:12

Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 at 20:12
Davoe,
I remember a few years back when I was in good shape (i.e before I got old and fat), pulled over by a female cop running solo in the middle of summer. I was driving a gemini at the time and thought I'd get out and meet her half way, let her know I'm a nice reasonable guy and maybe she'll be nice to me. I unfolded myself from the gemini(I'm 6'3) in all my no shoes, no shirt, ripped jeans, just finished night shift blood shot eyes glory. She $hit herself, got back in her car and tore off without so much as a hello. I think I used up my full quota of good luck right there, I was doing about 75 in a 60 zone when she got me.
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FollowupID: 354014

Follow Up By: Member - Bradley- Sunday, Jan 30, 2005 at 12:00

Sunday, Jan 30, 2005 at 12:00
yeah i always get out if pulled over, except if its raining, then i just leave the window down an inch.

BUT i dont approach the car anymore, did that one night in melb near crown, started walking slowly back 1/2 way to his car,reached around to take my wallet out of my back pocket and i guess the little fella didnt like the look of me (6ft2 115 kg solid) got the pointy end of his snub nose 38 looking me straight in the eyes . yes i froze, not so much from the weapon, but the look of intense fear in his eyes, took about 5 minutes for him to relax and establish i wasnt a threat, or trying to pull a piece on him. Then he proceeded to try and stich me up on a traffic infringement, but i knew more than him and explained the rules in a nice manner and he admitted he wasnt a TOG (a while back) and didnt know. What a cracker, i wished him goodnight and drove off.

i reckon we will be like the states soon, stay in car dont move and keep both hands up on the wheel in full view.
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FollowupID: 354404

Reply By: Member - John C (QLD) - Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 at 19:44

Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 at 19:44
Keep it simple.

1. Wait for the reminder.
2. Reply saying you will take it to court and you will be defending the infringement. In point form briefly state your reasons.
3. Basically you want to stall & stuff them around as much as you can and you may never hear from them again. It's a bluff game.
4. Insert spine in back. :)

They don't like turning up to court all the time and most times let them slide. I have been waiting to hear for 2+ yrs on one.

JC

AnswerID: 95213

Follow Up By: Rob! - Friday, Jan 28, 2005 at 09:53

Friday, Jan 28, 2005 at 09:53
John,

That doesn't really work. It's all done automatically by the machine, and you have to either and everytime oyu get a reminder i think your penalty goes up $20 or so.

R.
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FollowupID: 354084

Follow Up By: Rob! - Friday, Jan 28, 2005 at 09:54

Friday, Jan 28, 2005 at 09:54
John,

That doesn't really work. It's all done automatically by the machine, and you have to either pay or choose to take it court and everytime you get a reminder, i think your penalty goes up $20 or so.

R.
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FollowupID: 354085

Follow Up By: Rob! - Friday, Jan 28, 2005 at 09:54

Friday, Jan 28, 2005 at 09:54
don't know what happened there.
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FollowupID: 354087

Follow Up By: Member - Davoe (WA) - Friday, Jan 28, 2005 at 10:15

Friday, Jan 28, 2005 at 10:15
nuh john is correct if you want to contest it in court then dont pay it I dont think there is any mechanism for saying you want to take it to court,. If you ring up and say you want to challange it you will be told dont pay the fine and wait for the summons
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FollowupID: 354093

Follow Up By: Member - John C - Friday, Jan 28, 2005 at 12:01

Friday, Jan 28, 2005 at 12:01
Once you send a accompanying ltr it bucks the production line and they have to treat you independently.

As far as not working, it has so far.....
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FollowupID: 354116

Reply By: Crackles - Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 at 20:20

Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 at 20:20
Forget the speed they caught you doing, that is almost irrelivant. The law is very clear as to where & where not speed camera's can be set up. If there is a second car, bike, tree or even a sign within a certain distance the reading will be invalid. I'm sure in a caravan park something will be too close. A friendly copper should be able to get you that imfo. Then just send your letter explaining that you will oppose the fine due to the officers not following correct opperating proceedure.
Cheers Craig.............
AnswerID: 95228

Follow Up By: tex1972 - Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 at 20:53

Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 at 20:53
IN NSW the infringment must be issued lawfully ,this means the officer who got out of the vehicle to issue the fine MUST wear a high visibility vest. How many times do you see them with a vest on?
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FollowupID: 354028

Reply By: Bonz (Vic) - Friday, Jan 28, 2005 at 07:39

Friday, Jan 28, 2005 at 07:39
Well done Blue! I just heard Red Symons on 774ABC Melbourne read out almost word for word your post above. Then asked tha Police Media fellow his opinion and then went to callback.

Much the same response as here, the Walloper had no sympathy, nor did he suggest and action for recourse, and overwhelming was that it should be contested, was the speed limit GAZETTED etc etc. Then it deteriorated into a gab fest about high and mighty people putting in a whole bunch more "facts" than were there.

To me the important point is that you were travelling at an appropriate speed (i.e. slow) and watching the road so you didnt skittle and kids/dogs etc. Also interesting point, any kids on bikes there would have broken that speed limit anyway, even kids running would be going faster than 8.

Cant wait to see what happens here, I do know someone was chasing your phone no, so if youhavent heard, member message me and I can pass it on to the peron requesting it.

Mind you I was sleeping in....and when this came on the radio, well that was the end of sleep!!!
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AnswerID: 95310

Reply By: John-Maz - Friday, Jan 28, 2005 at 21:49

Friday, Jan 28, 2005 at 21:49
Any chance of a scan or photostat copy of the fine ??
All sounds a bit sus.....

AnswerID: 95447

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