131 litres in 125l tank?

Submitted: Sunday, Feb 13, 2005 at 23:55
ThreadID: 20415 Views:2519 Replies:19 FollowUps:14
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Does anyone know how it is that I could fit 131 litres of Diesel today, into the 95l (main) and 30l (sub) tanks of the new Patrol (3.0 TD 12/2004)? We've done about 7000kms so we've only filled it a few times, but we've never put more fuel into it than the size of the tanks.

It seems to me that either Nissan don't know how big the fuel tanks are, or Mobil has ripped me off. What do you think?

Thanks,

Aaron.
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Reply By: Muddy 'doe (SA) - Monday, Feb 14, 2005 at 00:01

Monday, Feb 14, 2005 at 00:01
Methinks you may have got a short measure at the bowser.

If Nissan could advertise an extra 10 litre tank capacity (I assume your tanks had a couple of litres left at least!) then I am sure they would do so.

Gotta wonder how accurate those bowsers really are!

Cheers
Muddy
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Reply By: Dion - Monday, Feb 14, 2005 at 00:18

Monday, Feb 14, 2005 at 00:18
I would have shown the service station the capacities of the tanks as shown in the NISSAN supplied owners book that came with the vehicle and only offered sufficient cash to cover that amount.
Alternatively not payed, and suggest the pump quarantined pending a visit from the weights and measurements people to ascertain the accuracy of the bowser.
(meanwhile hope that in all this time they didn't come out to look at the Patrol and spot the 20L jerry can in the back!!)

Cheers,

D.
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Follow Up By: Fusion - Monday, Feb 14, 2005 at 00:40

Monday, Feb 14, 2005 at 00:40
Hey Dion,

I like the idea of the 20l jerry can ;)

But I think I'll ring Nissan tomorrow, just to make sure it's not possible they have the wrong data on their spec. sheets.

Then I'll go to see Mobil with my reciept, car and fuel tank spec sheet. Once upon a time it wouldn't be a big deal, but at $1 a litre, they've ripped me off $6 at least, and completely messed up my fuel records.

I drove from Geelong to the Gold Coast along the Newell H'way on Friday and Saturday towing a 1.1 tonne camper trailer. Filled in Melbourne, then Dubbo - total usage about 13.5l /100kms. Then from Dubbo to Gold Coast (131 litres) 15.25l /100kms. Hmmm... something's not right.

According to my rough calculations, I should have only required about 116l of fuel, and my fuel light came on at about the right time for these figures to be accurate. So I may have been ripped off $15

We'll see what happens.

Thanks,

Aaron.
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Follow Up By: Bonz (Vic) - Monday, Feb 14, 2005 at 15:58

Monday, Feb 14, 2005 at 15:58
Mate dont bother calling NISSAN, you've been ripped off. On my GU I always fill ther 30l subtank first, and dependingon how much it takes to fill it I decide wetrher to fill the main tank. I have fitted anywhere between 26 and 35 litres into that tank and its always pumped into the main tank before, so it should be the same level of empty.

Mate even went into one station and told them their pump is out of whack to the tune of 10%, they told him no way and he said well come out and you can put 33 litres into my 30 l tank, they paid up.

We drive 10 km's to get petrol 1c a litre cheaper and then get ripped off anything up to 5c a litre by my reckoning by unscrupulous sellers. I have threatened calling weights and measures at one station near here, when I put 35 l in (and didnt fill the main tank. Funny thing I only put 29l in next fill, and "No we havent had anyone check the pumps"

good luck
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Reply By: Davo - Monday, Feb 14, 2005 at 00:20

Monday, Feb 14, 2005 at 00:20
I had a similar problem when I did a trip around Australia on a dirt bike fitted with a long range tank. I put 22L into a 20L tank which had just gone onto reserve!)it should have taken about 17L.
It makes my blood boil that these guys in remote fuel stops not only charge an extra 0.20c per litre, but then somehow ALWAYS manage to have their pump erroneously reading in their favour; not once is it in our favour, if it were, no doubt they'd have the pump isolated, and then recalibrated faster than you could blink!

That's my soapbox for tonight..
AnswerID: 98227

Follow Up By: V8troopie - Monday, Feb 14, 2005 at 01:41

Monday, Feb 14, 2005 at 01:41
Davo, I assume your dirt bike ran on petrol :-0.
In that case it depends a lot on how cold the fuel coming from the bowser is.
Ever noticed how they chill the fuel that goes into racing cars? They get more into the tank that way.

Klaus
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Follow Up By: timglobal - Monday, Feb 14, 2005 at 01:44

Monday, Feb 14, 2005 at 01:44
Name (& shame) the station. I fonly so those out west can choose (some other garage that over-ticks their pumps!!)
Trading Standards are usually more than happy to trundle over to the fuel station and give them a check.

Tim
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Follow Up By: Bonz (Vic) - Monday, Feb 14, 2005 at 16:03

Monday, Feb 14, 2005 at 16:03
I dunno mate, once I could only fit 30l into my 100l tank at DONGARA in WA and stopped the pump cause it was sooooooooooooo slow, funny thing we did 500km on that 30l, bloody good deal I reckon, mate did the same in his Patrol, one back for the boys.

Also I regularly get only 27 to 28 l in the 30 l subtank so thats 10% in my favour, theres some good things that happen.
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Reply By: Grumblebum and Dragon (WA) - Monday, Feb 14, 2005 at 01:28

Monday, Feb 14, 2005 at 01:28
Suggest you initially ask them to "please explain" and make sure you start with the Manager. Then ask them show you their current certificates of accuracy (there must be some sort of paperwork) and/or demonstrate by getting them to fill a (large) measured volume in your presence.

Suggest they refund you you the balance - and you call it quits. If still no joy then get the manager's name and threaten to report it to (a) The Fuel Co. Head Office (b) Your State Dept of Fair Trading and Consumer Protect (Its always effective to quote the Ministers name so look it up bedore you start - threats have to be credible) (c) The ACCC and their scam-line. Suggest letters to the local paper under the guise of 'poor service' etc and follow up on all of the above. Send them copies of the correspondence in case they want to settle out of court! Don't accept no for an answer.

There is too much of this sort of poor service going on in all industries.

I recently got the 'star' rating of a hotel/motel reviewed downwards. The Manager though that cockroaches were something that "you just have to put up with during the wet season up north" (They even had some 12 year old cutting from a newpaper or TV program to that affect in the rooms brochure!). All it took was a call to the local Health Officer and a letter to the RAC.

Good luck.

G
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Reply By: fisho64 - Monday, Feb 14, 2005 at 01:46

Monday, Feb 14, 2005 at 01:46
An easier way to scare them into submission if they ARE wrong would be to get a manufactured item from them like a cooking utensil that is calibrated, like a jug and fill it. If they refuse, get a witness ( another customer??) to document that also. Pumps (and ANY measuring device used comercially) must be calibrated and certified on a regular basis, so methinks if a bowser in the middle of nowhere that you have to buy fuel from would be STUPID to charge 20% more by HIGHLY illegal means when they could just charge it anyway and you would have to buy it. However there are MANY stupid crims. Check the prison records!!
AnswerID: 98234

Reply By: motherhen - Monday, Feb 14, 2005 at 01:48

Monday, Feb 14, 2005 at 01:48
Our 2001 3 ltr td sub tank is 40 litres - although it rarely seems to take than much once the diesel "foams". When we cut it a bit fine across the nullabor last year we put just over 160 in - which is 40 in the sub and 120 in the main (after market large tank).
AnswerID: 98235

Reply By: Eric from Cape York Connections - Monday, Feb 14, 2005 at 06:14

Monday, Feb 14, 2005 at 06:14
I am looking forward to trucksters theory.

All the best
Eric
AnswerID: 98237

Reply By: Member - DickyBeach - Monday, Feb 14, 2005 at 07:14

Monday, Feb 14, 2005 at 07:14
In the 1989 Redex Bash the route included the Tanami Track and everybvody refuelled at Rabbit Flat where Bruce had generously stated that 10% of his takings would go to the Variety Club.
When it was our turn we were intrigued that we could get 66 litres into our 60 litre tank and 55 litres into our 50 litre supplementary tank (62 S Valiant).
Generous allright.
AnswerID: 98238

Reply By: Member - Chrispy (NSW) - Monday, Feb 14, 2005 at 07:31

Monday, Feb 14, 2005 at 07:31
How much can the density of the fuel actually vary - according to both temperature and storage conditions? I'm kind of assuming that this is the line you may get from the fuel company if it starts to get ugly.
AnswerID: 98240

Follow Up By: Dion - Monday, Feb 14, 2005 at 10:57

Monday, Feb 14, 2005 at 10:57
A change in the density of fuel has no bareing on it's volume. The volume will only change depending on temperature.
When loading tankers, temperature of the product is recorded for the weighbill. However the increase in volume associated with increase in temperature was never significant enough that we put less in the tankers when loading in Adelaide to equal the right amount upon arrival at Alice Springs.

Cheers,

Dion.
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Follow Up By: Member - Chrispy (NSW) - Monday, Feb 14, 2005 at 11:12

Monday, Feb 14, 2005 at 11:12
Thanks Dion - you've given a good first-hand explaination - unlike many that I've read on forums before. So it's all bollocks...........
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Follow Up By: The Explorer - Monday, Feb 14, 2005 at 11:42

Monday, Feb 14, 2005 at 11:42
The density will vary with the change in volume as the mass (weight) of the fuel will not change. e.g. If the mass stays the same you could not have an increase in volume without a reduction in density and visa versa.

Maybe people should weigh there cars before and after filling to find out how much they actually get:)

Cheers
Greg
I sent one final shout after him to stick to the track, to which he replied “All right,” That was the last ever seen of Gibson - E Giles 23 April 1874

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Follow Up By: Dion - Monday, Feb 14, 2005 at 11:56

Monday, Feb 14, 2005 at 11:56
The mass of fuel does change as volume changes, hence I no longer order fuel for my vessel by mass (as directed), if the fuel is cold, I won't get the amount I want. If the fuel is loaded warm, ie oversea's, on return to Australia I have the potential to run short by volume. Henceforth I (as directed) can only order fuel by volume, to get exactly the required volume I need. The mass of the fuel is calculated from the total volume embarked, the density (remains a constant 0.846 +/- 0.005)and is temperature corrected.

Cheers,

Dion.
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Follow Up By: The Explorer - Monday, Feb 14, 2005 at 12:42

Monday, Feb 14, 2005 at 12:42
Dion - I think you have misinterpreted my comments - and now I am confused - if the density remains constant - why does it need to be temperature corrected? That suggest its not constant..doesnt it ? It is, from my little knowledge of physics, impossible for the volume of a set ammount of anything to change and the density to remain the same (density equals the volume/weight). The mass (weight) of a container of fuel can only change if you add or subtract fuel...surely...so density changes as the volume of a set amount (weight) of fuel changes.

I think what you are trying to say is if you order a set weight of fuel (and its hot when they load it) and you get it and its cold you dont have the volume you require. It will of course weigh the same..but that doesnt help you cause you dont have the volume you wanted..hence you like doing your calculations based on volume so you know what volume you will get when it arrives at your place (where I assume you have a good idea of the temperature ranges)...you could of course do the same calculations using the mass by using the density at the loading and unloading times related to temps and calculate resulting volumes.

Cheers
Greg
I sent one final shout after him to stick to the track, to which he replied “All right,” That was the last ever seen of Gibson - E Giles 23 April 1874

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Follow Up By: fisho64 - Tuesday, Feb 15, 2005 at 02:24

Tuesday, Feb 15, 2005 at 02:24
Im with you Explorer, the mass cant change without getting the extra from somewhere. That is why mass is used nowadays rather than weight. Easiest understanding of the difference is that an item(say 1000 litres of freshwater) has a mass and weight of 1000kg at sea level. However if you took it to the moon it would only weigh about 160 kg but the mass is still 1000 kg.
also liquids are not compressible but a temp difference can cause the shape( and hence volume of the tank) to change by the sides springing in or out.
Regarding racing fuel mentioned, I dont think it is to do with the volume in the tank, but putting cold fuel in to a combustion chamber is the same as cold air (intercooler), more combustible products.
It also minimises the most volatile products evaporating of from the tank
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Reply By: Member - JohnR (Vic) - Monday, Feb 14, 2005 at 07:56

Monday, Feb 14, 2005 at 07:56
Fusion, worst fuel consumption we have recorded was on a run where Heather did much of the driving between Mildura and Broken Hill last June. She drives with a lighter foot than I do, but we used the '4 cents a litre off' dockets she had in her purse from shopping. I reckon it was all due to the smaller litres some pumps have built in.

Last year one of the contributers said he have fronted for the operator and have got money back on the overcharged volume of fuel. Keep a watch on how much you can get into your sub tank always.
Cheers,
Who?
John

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Reply By: Member - Landie - Monday, Feb 14, 2005 at 08:38

Monday, Feb 14, 2005 at 08:38
Hi

I suspect temperature would play a part.

Also, the tanks may only take 125 litres, but did you fill it into the filler tube itself, this could account for additional fuel.

Just my take on it!

AnswerID: 98244

Reply By: Happy GU Owner - Monday, Feb 14, 2005 at 09:26

Monday, Feb 14, 2005 at 09:26
Fusion,

Tanks will be correct size, but if you are like me, when you are on a trip, you want as much fuel as possible, so you fill it up ro the filler neck where you can actually see whether it is full or not.

Nissan or Toyota or Mitsubishi,etc don't take into account the filler tubes from the cap to the tank as they would have you stop filling at the safety stops to allow for fuel expansion in the tanks due to the temperature changes that we have daily, and this amount in both the tubes could easily account for your discrepancies.

Mic

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Reply By: Member - Geoff & Karen - Monday, Feb 14, 2005 at 11:10

Monday, Feb 14, 2005 at 11:10
Hi Fushion.
I used to manage a Mobil roadhouse and believe you me, they are known for their calibrations on the pumps being out. And 10 times out of 10, it always went Mobils way. I would nearly gaurantee it would be the calibrations on the pump were out. If it was Mobils way, not very often we were allowed to get it looked at. Even so bad sometimes I would not fill our car up at the site I managed.
Have it out with Mobil, but winiing is another point.
Good luck
Karen
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Reply By: joc45 - Monday, Feb 14, 2005 at 11:59

Monday, Feb 14, 2005 at 11:59
Aaron,
Back in '98, Nissan did advertise the sub-tank at 40 litres, but quickly reduced that to 36 litres for the petrol and then 30 litres for the diesel. Even with filling right up to the neck, the most I've fitted into the sub-tank of my 4.2 diesel patrol is 31 litres, but usually 29-30 after draining it completely. The petrol version gets 35-36 litres in the same tank because of a different transfer system. And the main is definitely 95 litres.
Go for the jugular!
Gerry
AnswerID: 98275

Reply By: old-plodder - Monday, Feb 14, 2005 at 12:14

Monday, Feb 14, 2005 at 12:14
Three comments

I have refilled where the reading was 5% more than the tank volume and suspect a faulty pump reading, but hard to prove.

I have found that a sloping forecourt away from the pump gives me 10l more capacity than a forecourt sloping toward the pump. (135l tank in a pajero)

I have filled up the filler neck and also filled the expansion chamber. All sealed fuel systems have a 2 to 8l expansion chamber at the top of the tank which is not included ni the tank capacity, but can be filled with a bit of shaking and patience. Filling to the first click is more reliable for accessing fuel economy.

I have had varying fuel consumption figures on the same bit of highway under the similar conditions, but using different servos. I think there is a difference in fuel quality. I try and use a well known brand like shell or caltex etc.
Did try woolworths diesel for a while but not happy. New standards came in at the beginning of last year and I hear woolies actually asked for them to be delayed for 6 months since thier imported fuel did not meet the new standard.
AnswerID: 98277

Reply By: Member - Peter D M - Monday, Feb 14, 2005 at 13:00

Monday, Feb 14, 2005 at 13:00
aaron,

the previous responses on crook fuel pumps may be right but another explanation could be that the fuel vent pipe is more into the top of the tank allowing you to put more fuel in. all tanks have an unfilled top of tank to allow for expansion i believe some as much as 20 lt. depending on the angle it is in the tank more can be added than the book says.
just an idea.

regards peter
AnswerID: 98285

Reply By: Member - Fred - Monday, Feb 14, 2005 at 13:32

Monday, Feb 14, 2005 at 13:32
1998 GU 1
I can regularly get 33 litres in the sub tank when it has been pumped out to the main
Never had the main tank empty to check capacity
AnswerID: 98290

Reply By: GO_OFFROAD - Monday, Feb 14, 2005 at 19:08

Monday, Feb 14, 2005 at 19:08
Having spent 8 yrs doing weights and measures on bowsers, along with building servo's underground systems, the worst bowser I ever saw was out 200ml per 15 lt when being checked for certification.

The only exception is if the air seperator in the pump is non functional.
AnswerID: 98353

Follow Up By: fisho64 - Tuesday, Feb 15, 2005 at 02:31

Tuesday, Feb 15, 2005 at 02:31
and that only comes to around less than 1.5%
Go OFFROAD could tell us also, dont the bowsers have a little engraved certification plate inside the window? and also for that matter any measuring device like scales also??
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Follow Up By: GO_OFFROAD - Tuesday, Feb 15, 2005 at 07:18

Tuesday, Feb 15, 2005 at 07:18
They have aplate on the side of the unit mostly, and a cabled and lead stamped seal from the adjustment.

The fuel is measured by a upside down funnel shape jug with a ery small opening and a tongue to set the exact amount, and the jugs are calibrated and checked regularly also.

Fuels specific gravity doesnt change in delivery/storage and petrol is around .76 diesel around .85 and optimax/ultimate 98/ synergy 8000 around .79 -.81 per litre.
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Reply By: Member - Ed. C.- Monday, Feb 14, 2005 at 22:50

Monday, Feb 14, 2005 at 22:50
The capacity of the sub tanks on GU wagons is 40 litres, and was advertised as such when the GUs were introduced...
The reason that the "usable capacity" (for diesels) was revised to 30lt after people complained that they couldn't get more than that in there, is because the transfer pump switches off when there is APPROX. 10lt remaining in the tank...
The reason for this is because every time the engine is started, the pump runs for several seconds (provided that the main tank is not full), presumably to keep the pump primed & lubricated, and to confirm that it is working... So even after the tank has been "emptied", there is enough fuel in there to keep the pump from running dry...

So-o-o, the upshot of this is that after the sub tank has beed "emptied", if the car does several short runs before re-fueling, then it will indeed take more than 30lt... (up to 40, in fact:-))

I am quite amazed that so few people seem to be aware of this simple fact....
Confucius say.....
"He who lie underneath automobile with tool in hand,
....Not necessarily mechanic!!"

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Follow Up By: motherhen - Monday, Feb 14, 2005 at 23:44

Monday, Feb 14, 2005 at 23:44
Never knew that! We often can't put near the 40 litres in, so that would explain why. It doesn't help the people who use the sub tank to "test" the correctness of the bowser before filling up the main tank. My husband must of kept pressing that button when we were heading towards Norseman with the light on (which with the after market main tank means "fill up now or you stop")
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