may be as mad as some of wolfies ideas

Submitted: Saturday, Feb 26, 2005 at 17:15
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has any body tried using a spare wheel no tyre as an emergency winch i know that once they used to do it to landrovers a long time ago i saw a rim welded to a spare wheel to give extra width and a cable could be wound onto the extra rim using it as a winch ??????
steve
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Reply By: Member - Blue (VIC) - Saturday, Feb 26, 2005 at 17:24

Saturday, Feb 26, 2005 at 17:24
A mate of mine is in the process of patenting a "Wheel Winch" which bolts to your wheels using a steel boss and 3 of your existing wheel nuts. The winch drum is a thermoplastic and the kit will comprise 2 winches, rope and a sand anchor. Unsure when or if it will make to store shelves but have seen the prototype in action and it's very impressive. Watched a Ford Bronco pull itself out of sand upto the chassis rails down near Robe. I have already informed him that I should get one for free and he should advertise and offer a deal to EO members. Also mentioned that if further testing was required, this site would be a good place to look for volunteers...
Blue
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Follow Up By: Mike Harding - Saturday, Feb 26, 2005 at 19:05

Saturday, Feb 26, 2005 at 19:05
Is this "The Joey"?

Tell him to forget the patent and just get to market - for normal people (ie. people without millions of dollars to pay legal costs) patents are often next to useless and merely slow down time-to-market and tell the Chinese exactly how to manufacture your invention - additionally I doubt he would obtain a Full Patent on such a device??? But who knows with the Patent Office?

Mike Harding
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Follow Up By: Member - Blue (VIC) - Saturday, Feb 26, 2005 at 21:18

Saturday, Feb 26, 2005 at 21:18
G'day Mike, he keeps refering to it as "Wheel Winch", not aware of any other names... Discussion has been entered into re: patent or no patent, he wants to market it overseas so a patent is apparently required... I know nothing about patenting so I can't offer an opinion.
Blue
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Follow Up By: Lone Wolf - Saturday, Feb 26, 2005 at 21:35

Saturday, Feb 26, 2005 at 21:35
I must concur with Mike Hardings comment.

As the rightful owner of a now expired provisional patent, and also a registered design, the one thing I found, is that the only people guaranteed to make money, are the patent attorneys.

As it seems evident that this idea has a history, it is highly unlikely that a novel approach, which is what is required to secure a patent, is not going to be forthcoming.

I am not an attorney, but it would seem pretty evident to me that the idea of capstans etc, are old hat.

Sorry to sound like I'm raining on someone's parade, and if your friend manages to patent his design, and earn money, then I am more than pleased.... really. It's a long haul doing this stuff, and a lot of the people you ask along the way, just always seem to be giving you the thumbs up, which is good for motivation, but bad for business.

I sincerely wish all involved prosperity, but please, err on the side of common sense.

Wolfie
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Follow Up By: Member - Blue (VIC) - Saturday, Feb 26, 2005 at 21:47

Saturday, Feb 26, 2005 at 21:47
He has a history of throwing good money after bad, he also has a history of having enough money to do so without suffering any real setbacks... When I was told that almost $120k had been outlayed between the patent office, sourcing materials, technical drawings, failed prototypes and the final prototype... In a really loud voice i said a word which begins with "F" and rhymes with "TRUCKINGHELL", then just for fun I said it again... He didn't even bat an eyelid, I felt sick...
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Follow Up By: ExplorOz Team - Kerry W (QLD) - Sunday, Feb 27, 2005 at 12:40

Sunday, Feb 27, 2005 at 12:40
AH Wolfie - you are going to get a laugh outta this - Guess who has all the Joeys???

Blue - I think I heard from your mate last - figured he was producing something of his own.

See my reply below (No 8)

cheers
Kerry W (Qld)
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Follow Up By: Member - Bradley- Monday, Feb 28, 2005 at 13:09

Monday, Feb 28, 2005 at 13:09
interesting comments Mike and Ian, so if one has a good idea they may want to take to market , and its not worth doing the patent merrygoround, do you copy right the product to get some protection or just take your chances ?

I have no idea of this stuff, but am interested in the best way to go about it.

Any ideas or hints would be fantastic, thanks all
Brad
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Follow Up By: Mike Harding - Monday, Feb 28, 2005 at 13:46

Monday, Feb 28, 2005 at 13:46
>interesting comments Mike and Ian, so if one has a good
>idea they may want to take to market , and its not worth
>doing the patent merrygoround, do you copy right the
>product to get some protection or just take your chances ?

This is always a difficult one. Copyright only applies to intellectual things – books, photographs, circuit diagrams etc. You cannot copyright your automatic hair cutting machine but you automatically own the copyright of the design drawings you did in order to make it. The trouble with (full) patents is they’re expensive – basically you have to get a separate patent in each country (is there a full European patent yet?) and you only have one year from the grant of your Oz patent to do that otherwise your invention becomes public domain in all the other countries who are signatories to the Patent Treaty ie. all the Western World. As soon as your patent is accepted it is published both in Oz and (soon after) in all the other countries mentioned above and a lot of people make a living from examining new patents to see how they can profit from them. So you may find that 6 months after you have started marketing your automatic hair cutter in Oz; Acme Product$ International has just hit the USA market with “their” automatic hair cutter and it’s better and cheaper than yours! But surprisingly similar as far as the really clever bits of the design go! What are you going to do? Acme are worth $$$$99999999999.00 – are you really going to try and mount an international action against them – they’ll bankrupt you and the stress will probably kill you beforehand anyway.

There is a new simple patent available in Oz now (Innovation Patent ) which may have some merit in particular cases – but I’m unconvinced. Incidentally a detractor of this new system successfully obtained a patent under it for the wheel (that’s correct – wheel :) shortly after it was introduced a couple of years ago.

IMO patents are for the multinationals and the like – ie. people with big resources behind them – not the little man. I’ll be putting a couple of new products to market over the next year or so and I’ll just quietly launch them in the appropriate quarter.

http://www.ipaustralia.gov.au/
http://www.ipaustralia.gov.au/patents/what_innovation.shtml

It’s a while since I looked at this stuff so the above may not be 100% and I’d welcome corrections but this is not really the forum to discuss it at any length.

Mike Harding

mike_harding@fastmail.fm
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Follow Up By: Lone Wolf - Monday, Feb 28, 2005 at 16:50

Monday, Feb 28, 2005 at 16:50
I have no idea of this stuff, but am interested in the best way to go about it.

Any ideas or hints would be fantastic, thanks all

Brad, this is a little like asking a Doctor, on the internet, medical stuff.......... he won't tell you.

The scope of your question far belies my experience to answer it correctly.

Lots of people have done very well through the Patent system, others have fared not so well.

What ever you do, remember this.........

A patent IS NOT PROTECTION!! It is simply a piece of paper allowing you a long drawn out court battle.

If you're flush with dollars, go for it.

Wolfie
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Follow Up By: Member - Bradley- Monday, Feb 28, 2005 at 17:37

Monday, Feb 28, 2005 at 17:37
Thanks guys, it answers a lot of questions i had, seems that us little guys are better off just treading quietly if you know what i mean. I've given too much to lawyers so far so the less the better.

thanks again, Brad
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Reply By: Bonz (Vic) - Saturday, Feb 26, 2005 at 17:31

Saturday, Feb 26, 2005 at 17:31
I have a couple (set) of "rims" about 10" in diameter that bolt onto the hubs of the front wheels and act like capstans, a chain link thru the notch in the rim and a bit of role, turn the front wheels and hey presto youre out ....or thats the theory
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Reply By: Lone Wolf - Saturday, Feb 26, 2005 at 18:16

Saturday, Feb 26, 2005 at 18:16
There is a slight problem with the method you outlined........

If the said wheel suddenly, and or intermittently, gets grip, and propels the vehicle forwards, you are going to have problems in keeping the wire wound steady on the drum.

Same set up, but use it as a coffee grinder type capstan, where by you only have one turn of cable wrapped around, and a second person keeping tension on the off side, therefore allowing free running when the vehicle gains momentum of its own accord.

I still can't work out why sand ladders are not a big thing here in Australia. In Africa, they seem to be popular.

Wolfie

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Follow Up By: GOB & denny vic member - Saturday, Feb 26, 2005 at 18:33

Saturday, Feb 26, 2005 at 18:33
goodday wolfie
what do you call a sand ladder i carry 6 pieces of steel cut out of walk way mesh not sure what to call it but i hope it works if needed havent had to use it in anger yet

steve
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Follow Up By: glenno(bris) - Saturday, Feb 26, 2005 at 19:13

Saturday, Feb 26, 2005 at 19:13
Bridging ladders are not popular either .
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Follow Up By: Footloose - Saturday, Feb 26, 2005 at 20:08

Saturday, Feb 26, 2005 at 20:08
The traditional "Sahara" style of sand ladder made out of perferated steel may be relatively difficult to carry unless in a convoy. (space and weight). There are much lighter materials such as carpet etc that will aid traction. Some plastic ones are flogged at the 4wd shops.
I've tried a few types and can tell you that they're not all that easy to recover when you're out of the poo. Having to stop and recover them when climbing a dune isn't great either. Personally I'd rather use a bullbag and dig myself out.
Mind you there's nothing like having something around to throw under the wheels when bogged, but unless its mud (yukky stuff) I haven't really needed anything.
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Reply By: Willem - Saturday, Feb 26, 2005 at 20:00

Saturday, Feb 26, 2005 at 20:00
Hi Steve

The concept has been around for years. I have seen home made ones work quite well.

There is also a device known as a Joey which attaches an extra wheel to the drive wheels which can lift a vehicle out of a bog or bad situation.

Then I have seen a bloke with a pulley set up as a winch. Had to carry quite a bit of rope though. Was a cheap alternative to an electric winch.

The best winch is however still the PTO(Power Take Off) which operates from the side or rear of the transferbox. It is a bit dangerous to operate if you are on your own though.(Speaking from personal experience)

But the ease of an electric power winch is a good solution to extricating your vehicle from a sticky situation. There are lots pof detractors against power winches but they have served me well when I have needed them.

Like all add ons to vehicles, each bit of equipment is a compromise.
AnswerID: 100286

Follow Up By: Member - Geoff M (NSW) - Sunday, Feb 27, 2005 at 10:01

Sunday, Feb 27, 2005 at 10:01
Hello Willem,
You've brought back memories, the good old Toyota PTO winch.
Had 2 Landcruisers fitted with them at different stages. As long as you kept the engine running you could winch for weeks.
As you stated, darn hard to operate on your own. Once mastered, never forgotten.

Geoff.
Geoff,
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Reply By: desert - Saturday, Feb 26, 2005 at 21:08

Saturday, Feb 26, 2005 at 21:08
Yes, I played around with this about 20 years ago and found that you need to put on two drums, one each side and then the truck will just pull itself along the wire. The tractionless wheel cannot free spin because it must wind in the wire and either wheel with traction will move the truck forward anyway. Repco Auto parts were selling a kit with a bolt on drum that uses 3 of the six studs so you do not have to take the wheel off. It was marketed as the "Wheel Winch" and used to retail for about $200, less the wire rope.But hav'nt seen them around for many a year now. It was a bit of mucking about to set it up, especially in mud holes and of course you can only pull your self, not others. I lost interest with it when the PTO kits were available to fit "reaL" 4wd's with PTO apertures on their gearboxes. But the way these present vehicles are going, with no PTO availability, might just have to re-invent the wheel!
AnswerID: 100290

Reply By: Grumblebum and Dragon (WA) - Sunday, Feb 27, 2005 at 00:09

Sunday, Feb 27, 2005 at 00:09
Another back-up option you could look at is to construct and use a "Spanish windlass" Never used one, but I am told you can shift some serious loads. You will need a couple of long poles and some 3/4 inch sisal rope - dont use any rope with stretch in it. To see the simple set-up go to :-http://www.inquiry.net/outdoor/skills/b-p/windlass.htm or type Spanish Windlass into Google and set the search to the whole net - not just Aussie pages.

Been meaning to try it one of these days.

Regards

John
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Follow Up By: V8troopie - Sunday, Feb 27, 2005 at 02:15

Sunday, Feb 27, 2005 at 02:15
Yes, you can shift a heavy load with this but only for a rather short distance. You then have to somehow stop the winching pole from turning back while you place something behind the wheels to stop the vehicle losing all that hard sweated distance you just gained.
Then you have to carefully unwind the windlass, re-set the ropes stretched taut and start winding all over again.

If one is *really* desperate and only has a long rope at hand, it may be a way out. I would prefer the non stretch ropes as used on sailboats - sisal is yesterday's stuff :-)
Klaus
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Follow Up By: Member - Sparkie (QLD) - Sunday, Feb 27, 2005 at 08:14

Sunday, Feb 27, 2005 at 08:14
I will have to remember that method. WOW, I knew there was more to learn on this website 8-)

Sparkie(IE not Y) ;-)

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Reply By: Member - Geoff M (NSW) - Sunday, Feb 27, 2005 at 09:58

Sunday, Feb 27, 2005 at 09:58
Mate of mine had two of these, weren't rims, just drums permanently attached to the rear wheels of his FJ55. They where about two thirds the diameter of the rim and about three inches wide.
Couple of wraps of wire around each one and you where away.
Positives,
Simple to use.
Could winch in both directions.
Down sides,
Lots of rope neeeded as you had to employ both capstans at exactly the same time.
Needed three operators, one to drive vehicle, one each to keep tension on the capstans.

Haven't seen something like this in well over 15 years.

Geoff.
Geoff,
Landcruiser HDJ78,
Grey hair is hereditary, you get it from children. Baldness is caused by watching the Wallabies.

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Reply By: ExplorOz Team - Kerry W (QLD) - Sunday, Feb 27, 2005 at 12:30

Sunday, Feb 27, 2005 at 12:30
Hi Guys
Sorry for holding out on you for so long but I haven’t had time to put these on the market or on this site -- But here it is - the Original JOEY.
Yes they've been around for years. Ive got plenty in stock.

We didn’t think they would sell too well in the shop (seeing the shop sells mostly maps and books plus I’m on the Opposite Coast)

The Joey acts as
A, winch,
B, jack to hop the vehicle out of a bog (hence the name JOEY)
C, dual wheel to float the vehicles over those muddy saltpans

See pics in my Rig Profile

Really you need a pair unless you have difflocks otherwise you will find the Joey wheel will have all the traction and the other will spin.

NOTE Suits all 6 Stud x 139.9mm wheel patterns with 12mm x 1.5 Pitch wheel nuts (Toyota, Pajero, Jackeroo) (Note: Nissan Patrols have 12mm x 1.25 pitch wheel nuts and adaptor Nuts are available by order)

This is strictly a recovery device and it is recommended that it not be used at speeds above 4kph or with excessive revs. Misuse or impatience will exacerbate any situation the vehicle is in.

As with all recovery equipment misuse of this product may cause personal harm or injury, or damage to the vehicle.

If the demand is there we can Ask Michelle and Juliana to stock these in the ExplorOz Shop.

If anybody wants some message me but be patient I’m just leaving and may not get back to you till early next week.

See pics in my Rig Profile
cheers
Kerry W (Qld)
Security is mostly a superstition. It doesnt exist in nature. Life is either a daring adventure or nothing.
-Helen Keller

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