oil and change times

Submitted: Monday, May 16, 2005 at 22:29
ThreadID: 23043 Views:2923 Replies:6 FollowUps:3
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Hi forum members, was having a discussion with my father-in law about oil and length between changes. The old boy is a truck retired diesel mechanic with experience in europeon dealeships and in major dealers in Perth so i regard him as knowlegable on engines big and small. He is in the process of purchasing a new Hilux diesel and has been giving the dealers the what for and there service depts about the requirement to have 5000 km service intervals.
I know trucks are different and most would have double filters etc and very large sumps and are turbo charged. He basicallly has said that most trucks go 100 000 km between changes with filters during that distance. They use Rimular or delo etc like we all run in our trucks and test the oil for contaminents etc.
So what are the main reasons we can't do the same , not sure but will put down some thoughts down 1) stop start driving
2) in adequate filters
3) engine design
4) oil quality
5) owner apathy on servicing
6) manfacturers loss of income in the service area
There would be big savings in owning a diesel powered vehicle if servicing intervals were extended.
I would be interesred to others members thoughts and experences

Regards

Darryl
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Reply By: Member - Captain (WA) - Monday, May 16, 2005 at 22:44

Monday, May 16, 2005 at 22:44
Hi Darryl,

I change my oil every 5,000kms even though GU service interval is 10,000kms. I simply reckon its the cheapest insurance you can get. But I also agree that one can significantly extend the interval cahnge as oil gets contaminated, not degraded, and that good filtration can clean it.

As for your points raised;
1) medium impact - unless up to temperature, water condensed in oil from combustion byproducts does not evaporate.
2)agree - better filters would certainly help.
3)no real impact IMHO, but low compression TD (17:1) has less potential for blowby than non TD (22:1) with other things like ring design being equal.
4)big impact
5)should not be a consideration IMHO
6)totally agree here, last service cost me ~$400 for really only a filter and oil change - silly me for paying for it. But they did do a 101 safety check !!!

Check out the Land Rover costs, I believe they now have 20,000kms sevice intervals for the diesel - stand corrected if I am wrong here.

Cheers

Captain
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LC 200 + AOR Quantum

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Reply By: KiwiAngler - Monday, May 16, 2005 at 23:00

Monday, May 16, 2005 at 23:00
I do 'minor' service ie replace oil and oil filter every 5000k and 'major' ie change oil and oil filter and fuel filter every 10,000k. I saw the oil out of a 4x4 the other day that hadnt been changed for 20,000km and it was BLACK AS. The way I figure it oil and filters $$$$$$ are nothing compared to any engine damage done due to poor oil and/or oil filter
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Follow Up By: Patrol22 (Queanbeyan - Tuesday, May 17, 2005 at 12:52

Tuesday, May 17, 2005 at 12:52
Change my oil and filter every 5000kms - and my oil is always black as........................... this is just a factor of diesel fuels I think.
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Follow Up By: KiwiAngler - Tuesday, May 17, 2005 at 16:12

Tuesday, May 17, 2005 at 16:12
Should have also added 'and as thick as' too :-) The mechanic that showed it to me was working on this guys engine, it was in pieces, and said that the oil condition had contributed to the damage done.

Now before you all jump on me - I am just the mesenger- I am not nor do I profess to be a mechanic - I am just the mesenger :-)
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Reply By: Harrow - Tuesday, May 17, 2005 at 03:36

Tuesday, May 17, 2005 at 03:36
Daryl
Good Questions

1) Stop Start Driving Causes
a) Fuel Dilution of oil
( fix, correct pump and Injector calibration and servicing,lighter on the loud pedal, improves your fuel consumption too)
b) condensates building up in sump, reacts with sulphur =H2SO4 and corrosion of engine internals
(Fix ,Long Runs, Bypass filter removes condensate, use low sulphur Diesel or even better BioDiesel)
c) Road Rage
(Fix, get the h*ll outa the city find some open Hwy aslo resolves Items a & b above)

2) Inadequate filters
Roughly you's gets what you's pay's for, why is it Toyota extended the 1HZ 'not severe' use drain intervals to 10,000 km , because their OEM filter is actually a combination full flow/ bypass (high efficiency) filter, and some fool is selling adaptors so you can spin on a elcrappo full flow only Z9, so you can save a few bucks. do your research, do any filter suppliers provide "specs" on particle size retention and load capacity , shame shame.

3) Engine design
I suspect that Fuel Quality is the more important factor, EEU was down to below 50ppm sulphur eons ago, we have dirty jap diesels because we use dirty fuel 500ppm (Sulphur = soot and H2SO4), we have to be 50ppm by 2006 when the EEC is aiming at 25ppm.
That said the european diesels are a more highly stressed/refined motor, turbos etc

4) Oil Quality
Critical the additive package and TBN needs to be taylored to suit especially for realy extended drain's
or you can oil monitor, and change it when you reach the limit of the combination of the quality of the oil and veh service conditions.
5000k services are because the veh manf are assuming the worst (stop start, crap fuel, poor servicing (and they should know!!) etc etc)

5)Owner Apathy
If you fit into this catagory do every one and the enviroment a favor and sell your vehicle, walking will probably give your also apathetic body the quality servicing it needs , win, win.

6) manfacturers loss of income in the service area
You gotta admit its pretty good money for putting on a telemarketer to give you a call after the service to give you the illusion they care and must have done it right , they wouldnt have the cheek to ask such a question if they hadnt done the service properly Right !!, wouldnt they??.
H*ll with that kind of service , they dont actually have to do the service , just pocket the money for the price of a phone call.
Your already on extended drain you just dont know it, and they havent lost a cent.

Ill confess I'm an High efficiency filtration, extended oil drain nut

Bypass filtration =, reduced costs, able to affordably use superiour Synthetic oil, giving longer engine life, and importantly MORE enviromentally sustainable.

If only I could get hold of BioDiesel my drain intervals would be improved and my enviromental impact / greenhouse gases would be reduced 80% Win for my pocket win for my vehicle life , win for for the enviroment.

I expect to get a canning from some dinosaurs who are so entrenched in the dogma of wastefull every 5000k oil changes and filthy bl**dy petroleoum Diesel
yet drive arround this beautiful county claiming how much they love it , while insisting on polluting it to death, with waste oil and greenhouse gases, more than is necesary.

Why does Tread Lightly only apply to where we drive.

See further comments below for my personal experiences with bypass filtration, even if it did cost me the same as 5000km services (actually costs me signifigantly less) I would still do it for the pure satisfaction of the enviromental benifits, and protecting the bigggest investment I have , the planet.

My experience

I Used an Frantz 2 stacker on my LN65 Hilux 2L Diesel with synthetic oil for approx 200,000k ,changed FILTER every 5000Km (plus 1.5 Litres topup ,system vol was 6L) and oil every 50,000K no oil testing done.

Was chasing more ponies so transplanted the 2.4 with a 2.8 3L inc G/Box and Tfr.
Sold 2L motor to Diesel Mechanic for a mates 2.2 hilux , he was that impressed with the excellent condition of the Motor he came back and brought the G/Box and Tfr next weekend.

The 3L transplant went for 350,000Km with the same treatment before the Hilux was sold with nearly 700,000Km and 18 yrs.

I now have a 100 series HZJ105R (4.2 Diesel) 40,000km at purchase (now done 130,000km with aftermarket Turbo) When purchased installed an AMSOIL Dual BYPASS system after making an adaptor to take the oil from the original spin-on (system replaces the original spin-on which is a incidentially a combination of full flow / BYPASS (the toyota BYPASS portion FILTERs the full sump approx every 3hrs and has a lower total particulate holding and retention >10 micron capacity).

The AMSOIL Bypass filters to <1uM and filters the whole sump approx every 10 min from memory so no contest.

costs work out about 1/2 (filters and oil testing not cheap ,change filters and oil every 30,000 km,) saves the enviroment (<1/6 oil usage) and provides superior engine protection using a quality synthetic oil.

Further the Introduction of Ultra low sulphur diesel helps extend drain intervals further by "Quote" BP website

• reduced corrosion due to acidic exhaust gas components leading to improved maintenance and operation

ie the TBN (Total Base Number) ability to neutralise the corrosive byproducts is improved

• reduced soot build up in the engine lubricants with potential for extended drain periods

Explains its self

And note BioDiesel has 0% sulphur with excellent fuel pump lubrication

I installed on the 1hz the AMSOIL Dual bypass (1 full flow and 1 bypass element) system by removing the original filter and puting in its place a home made adaptor to take and return the oil to the motor using braided hydraulic fittings, no holes in sumps etc no hose failures (quality HD fittings).
The Importance of the oil used is if you are NOT throwing it away every 5000km you can afford to use top quality Synthetics, I use AMSOIL SAE 15W-40 Synthetic Heavy Duty Diesel and Marine Motor Oil, it is specifically designed for extended drain due to the additive package and the high TBN=12.

Time we all got smarter
AnswerID: 111567

Follow Up By: Member - Roachie (SA) - Tuesday, May 17, 2005 at 15:41

Tuesday, May 17, 2005 at 15:41
Harrow,

Great response mate!!

What sort of vehicle do you have? I am in the process of trying to get my hands on a AMSOIL bypass set-up. I know how I'm gunna plumb it in already. My mate has a 3L Patrol and was also interested in it. His has a single filter in a canister and I'm not sure whether he'd be able to get a dual adaptor....do you know much about it?

Cheers

Roachie
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Reply By: herkman - Tuesday, May 17, 2005 at 09:27

Tuesday, May 17, 2005 at 09:27
My experience with heavy and high HP turbo diesels 4500 HP, indicate very clearly that the only successful way of extending oil changes, is by testing the oils on a regulair basis.

Filters also are a limiting factors, there is little sense in extending the invervals, if the filters have gone into bi pass mode.

The colour of the oil is not always an indicator of condition. My understanding is that one of the greatest concerns from Nissan and Toyota, is the amount of soot that is building up in the oil. Whilst the oils primary function is to lubricate, it also aids cooling and holds the nasties that you want to get out of the oil. It is no use just saying that trucks leave it in longer, because truck engines and their filters are designed for longer duty cycles, and usually travel much longer distances, in much shorter times.

Some diesel engines like the ML270, can measure the duty cycle, but I have reservations about that, and when we were doing long trips in ours you could observe the next service interval being pushed out, as you came back into slower stop start driving, the you could see the service being pulled back.

We were never happy with the long intervals, on long distance running a ML270 will indicate 24,000 kms plus change intervals. However looking at the filter, I always had doubts about its ability to go the distance. We always ran ours on fully synthetic oils, and speaking to people who did not, their monitoring always reduced the change times.

When we went to the Prado, we use Dello and change it every 5000KMS, looked at a fully synthetic oil, but it would cost over $80 per change, as with the dino oil it only cost $26. Could not justify the upgrade particularly as Toyota did not approve the move.

In forty odd years of driving, I have never had one gram of trouble with any engine. However I have always used the best in oils and filters, and I think therein lies the secret of long engine life.

Regards
Col Tigwell
AnswerID: 111585

Reply By: Member - Darryl - Tuesday, May 17, 2005 at 20:18

Tuesday, May 17, 2005 at 20:18
Thanks for the responses chaps,interesting reading.
I own 2 x t/d Iszsu powered vehicles and service regular at 5000km intervals and filters at 10000km.Im with you on a penny now is a pound saved in repairs later on.
With owner apathy part i was refering to the manufacturers dont trust owners to do extended service intervals.With the amsoil filter arrangemnts ,are they available in Aust or is it a case of importing it from the states,not that iam intending to fit .
I am a electrician with some experience with large stationary t/d diesel engines in power stations (cat and blackstone ) and servicing was part of the job.
With all the extended km servicing on petrol cars , i wonder if maufactures are considering it on diesel powered vehicles such as 4wd.

Regards

Darryl
AnswerID: 111684

Reply By: viz - Wednesday, May 18, 2005 at 21:46

Wednesday, May 18, 2005 at 21:46
One of my pet sujects...

I have a Merc 2.2 litre diesel and a LC100 4.5 petrol. Prior a Range Rover with a 5.8 litre V8. The Merc has a HUGE sump - 9 litres (i think) and a recommended drain interval of 22,000 km. I use synthetics and ULSD; I now do FILTER changes at 11,000 km and drop the oil at 22,000. I do not have to add any oil between filter changes apart from filter change top up.

The LC100 I change oil AND filter at 5,000 kay interval - I think the oil filter is way too small for the engine, and which also has a relatively small sump. I am looking at options - by-pass/full flow etc... I use HiTech Oils HTO 10W-60 full synthetic oil - though I am still checking that - the oil is SH specs, not SJ (though should still be OK).

I use the HTO oil in the Range Rover - it has a large remote full flow filter (Hard Driver HD01), and an Amsoil bypass filter. I change the oil and main filter in that engine every 10,000 (this is due to the oil itself - it is a cheaper full synthetic. More on this later); I change the by pass filter every 25,000. This is a 260 kw engine that still at 130,000+ km burns less than 1/2 litre between oil changes.

It is interesting to note that some trucking companies are going back to more regular oil changes with cheaper *mineral* oils and oil testing. Synthetics are all well and good, but can be very expensive (Amsoil, Neo etc). To get the benefit from these oils you MUST have a smick by-pass setup that is seperate from OEM - then you can go for extended drain intervals and get some of the money back from your oil investment.

My advice, based on many professional km: Use a good quality oil (a good synthetic even better), use OEM drain intervals, but change the filter at evey half interval unless using a quality after-market by-pass filter.

/viz
AnswerID: 111853

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