4WD Testing

So I assume you won't come out with us to test the various vehicles?

lol

So there Chris!

I, for one, will be racing down to my nearest Toyota dealer to buy a Kluger. Thanks BruSav for saving me all that precious time I would have wasted doing my own research. I s'pose I can't really expect to get much of a trade in though, now that "buyers no longer want the choice of a Tarago, Voyager or large 'traditional' fourby because they are all a compromise".

Hmmm!!!!! I still think you need to disclose your Licensed Motor car Traders (LMCT) number and perhaps identify your dealer name if you want to persist on selling cars to the public.

lol...the trouble with this parrot is that he is preaching to the 5% of people that actually use this forum. Thats why we are here.

Harold Scru....I mean BruSav is picking to wrong place to advertise his glorified falcon....

Sorry, I mean the 5% of people that actually use their 4WD's.

I don't know what I was thinking.

I was of the understanding that the ford explorer flip over issue was directly related to the faulty firestone tyre issue and not because it was a 4WD. I wouldn't think that an explorer would sit much higher than a Kluger...

Yep that is right, my explorer is stable. I think you will find the large amount of injuries occurred due to the fact that yanks don’t like wearing seatbelt’s.

P.S I have seen footage of the firestone tyres separating (Scary stuff, the tyre just fell apart).

As for clearance the lowest point on mine (the rear diff) is 195mm.

Read my resonse above.

Most, if not all of the people on this forum actually do take their vehicles off road. Not just on dirt tracks.

I do agree SUV's are a good compromise for people that want a bit of room and to travel along a few dirt tracks.

That is not us at all! Most of the poeple here go camping. We tow trailers. We use our vehicles for what they were designed for.

You would do just as well finding a dirt-bike forum. I mean, an SUV would not be as noisy, and would keep you drier in the rain...

Once again, thanks for putting me straight on how marketing works.

It's funny though - according to the latest sales figures Toyota is the only local manufacturer whose sales have fallen this year, dipping 2.8 per cent to 76,431 units, having lost ground in its traditional areas of strength, light trucks and SUVs.

Has the Territory actually taken sales from the Prado compared to prior years sales of the Prado or is the increase since the introduction of the Territory from people upgrating to the "SUV" from a sedan.

What? You want actual facts from this parrot?

Crazie...what are you thinking?

lol

So? Come out with us one day, and show us how good it is.

I do not think anyone is debating that they are not a good vehicle for what they are made for, i have seen a few SUV's where i didnt think they would make it and was totally impressed.

If you read the responses above, they are all offering you a alternative view..

I think BruSav is taking his bat and ball and going home.....

No BruSav, IT IS PREACHING! The way you have bombarded this forum with cut and paste copies of your advertorials is what has raised peoples hackles. It smacks of promotion with a vested interest and it is why so many responses have been so negative. If you are genuinely happy with your choice of vehicle, congratulations! But, stop ramming it down our throats. You are doing yourself and the Toyota Kluger no favours with your blatant promotion.

There really is NOTHING new about the concept behind what is now known as an SUV "Soft roader"

Subaru exploited that niche first with the "ugly duckling" subaru 1400 4WD wagon of the mid 70's.

To our dear Totota dealer (BruSav), welcome to thirty years ago....that is how far Toyota REALLY are behind the times.

One notable point is that the old Subies would (and did) go a lot further off road that the Kluger would. There was one member of the Victorian Subaru club in the late 70's that took a Subie across the Simpson, in the days when it was a real challenge even getting there.

May we ask what you do for a living BruSav?

Think you are generalising the people on here as "Hard core".... I would think most people on here would fitting in the 4wding category, which I would assume, your target market, , not necessarily hard core

We are hardly hard core.

We buy vehicles that suit our needs. Our needs are obviously different to yours.

Good luck, and if ever I see you in the bush, I will wave goodbye as I go where I want, not where my compromise won't take me....

thats very funny Chris hahaha, i liked it.

This has actually turned out to be an interesting lunchtime for me.

And here I was just going to eat my sushi and read a book!

You design ISO quality systems?

What the hell does that mean?

Since when does "Toyota Evangelist" = "ISO quality systems"?

As Crazie has already suggested most people on ExplorOz would not fall into the 'Hard core 4WD' genre. I would also humbly suggest, with no disrespect intended that the majority of posters on this forum, although opinionated, are a lot less bombastic with the expression of their points of view, and if you intend to be a regular contributor (and I'm sure most would welcome you with open arms) you should temper the strength of your conviction. Once again congratulations on the purchase of a vehicle which YOU are so obviously delighted with.

What did you start Chris? To me the problem is people in the media let advertsiers convince them that the marketing is more important than the product .

They promise that who ever has the cash can do anything.. There are many people who own "real 4x4" who should not be let loose either in the city or the bush.

I grew up on the land and went most anywhere in the old holden (dents and scrapes) and occasionally had to have the tractor rescue me.it is not about who can do what, but why do we care (my dads bigger than your dad syndrome)

My concern and I am guessing the concern of others is that well made large vehicles capable of carrying a load and pulling a load with simple reliable set ups are being lableled in the same class as "popular" city imitations that costs just as much but are lightly built and unable to deliver in the other areas.
These AWD SUV MMC (My Mrs Car) are not the same and yet they are being called "the go anywhere 4x4 " .It will get to the stage when most people will not be able to buy a well built powerful off road vehicle any longer because they will not be real SUV's.

It is great we have choice but lets not confuse the labels so much that we delude ourselves.

If I won the lottery tomorrow I would buy my wife an AWD and have the 80 series washes and polished.You buy what you want and stop trying to convice me.

I have had it up to here with spin doctors and self interested people highjacking what seems a good place for genuine people to meet on line.

By the way Bru Sav, statistic are not the truth just a way of amusing people who like making generalisations.
Cheers

Skinny

Skinny,

I'm with you on the cruiser. Mines a 100 series, but the 98 GXL with the live axle. It's a diesel, no turbo, manual, split rims, and it is what I went looking for. I'm happy with it, and most importantly, my wife is happy with it.

An SUV as a second car would be pointless for us, as it wouldn't be taken off road. We are looking round for a little corolla or something, because thats what suits us.

This setup may not suit anyone else in the world, but us.

Not many people either realsie this, or respect this.

Next thing you know, someone will be whinging about all the pot I have growing out the back.....lol

Geez Vitara, I started to read your response, forgot to take a breath and nearly exploded!

Sorry mate i'l stick to my lux mind you the old landi will still be going when my'n is dead and buried. but it suits my purpose I think !!! Take care Vitara

Totallay agree. Fond memories as a kid of one of those stuck up in the mud near Dead Horse Gap when there were no roads. That was a real classic model you should do it up and use it.

hey chris

me too, not joking, i have a 69 landy series 2a pick up being put back together in my garage, thanks for confirming my purchase...

The U in SUV is Utility , as in many functions , not Ute that we use.

A wagon can be a Sports Utility Vehicle

I read the mags and I also seek feedback on forums, cause' that is where you find out stuff dealers don't know and other users will divulge. I spend weeks doing all this before I spent the dough. We're stuck with SUV and that is that from the marketing angle. 'RV' is the choice term, it got lost in 03 when the Territory came out; blame Ford for that fopar. Don't forget that Subaru started the crossover trend (and they did'nt know it till it started); always has been sold as AWD and still is sold as AWD. Territory and Kluger badge reads 'AWD'. Check out the Subbie B90 (?) it's SUV!

I don't read magazine reviews, because:
a) they know the answers they want before they start,
b) they only test new vehicles against other new vehicles,
c) the test pool is very limited.

I want a comparison accross as many different types of vehicles as possible. New and Old. Unmodified, and slightly modified. crossover, SUV, 4X4, and whatever else shows up.

Imagine if we could get 100 vehicles accross, say 10 different obsticles, that would be as unbiased an opinion as you could get.

When I say obsticles, I also mean things like stopping distances on gravel from 60km/h, and things like that. Not just rock hopping.

you forgot point d)

"They are paid handsomely by the manufacturers for favourable reports" (most notably, by Toyota). Not absolutely directly mind you, but by excessive advertising space (see how many Nissan ads are in the mags)

Makes perfect sense to me. Right on, "horses for courses". I've never seen a 'top shelf' Landcruiser, Prado, XR, Cayeene or Rangie with scrapes down the side of the paint and dings in the undercarriage.

Most of that sort of data is readily available. Power, weight, cargo space, etc... we could download for the vehicles we were interested in.

Heavily modded vehicles would not be a good test.

But I am interested in things that aren't published, and can only be tested by running several vehicles over the same test, and seeing what happens.

One may do it with no wheel spin, but have a wheel 2 feet in the air. One may bottom out and not make it, wheras a vehicle with a similar ground clearance may not bottom out.

These are things that would be interesting.

Why do dings and scratches make a "real" 4WD?

Hi Chris, I asked myself the same question "dings and scratches" may just mean a track was narrow. Personally the "real" 4wd is the person behind the wheel who knows the capabilities or not of their vehicle; personally I'd rather pull the pin on a track rather than put anyone or thing at risk.

This has certainly been an interesting read, thanks fellas.

cheers

Lyn

I think the same way as you, Lyn.

Only I normally think it about 30 seconds too late. Usually as I can feel the vehicle sliding down the hill, stuck in the wheel ruts.

The next thought is usually "damn, hope I don't have to go back that way"....

Not just against real 4WD's, but also against each other.

We should see if we can get a couple of cars along as well, just to see what the differences are.

Would be quite funny to see a Magna or something do something just 1 crossover couldn't do.

Phots posted on a web site would be a must, of course!

Yeah I can just see it, a suburu sitting up on the rock like the pic of your patrol, oops but it's not standard 2inch lift. I'd like to see a kluger do this with a 2 inch lift as well maybe a rav 4 may be a holden cruze you know those suzuki ignis rebadged a holden or is it the other way round ah who cares neither/ any of them could do it anyway. They wouln'd have low range to get up it. !!!!!!!!! Take care Vitara

Gee I missed out on some great and halarious timewasters prior to reading this forum daily. Man, that membership I think I will get now. Prompted from one of these recent similar threads, just did a search & read on johnno1, nuff said. Took a long lunch to do it too!

But back on topic, time to do so is one problem but yes interesting to see a line up of different vehicles. Was out at Wombat State for a bbq the other week, and saw a tiny & low little thing succeed navigating over a couple rocks, bump & grind included. I reckon there would be some suprises in a lineup.

I am in too, but you cannot laugh at my Jack hahaha is it a real 4wd hahaha, you bet ya........It will love to joining in the test...

Hey Tonester 75% of Johonno1 s threads and all his multaple peronalities er I mean aliuses were deleted - Imagine how long that would have taken!!

You didn't discuss anything. You didn't answer any questions.

You just typed at us. At speed, no less.

I think people like you should realise there are other people in the world, which hopefully you do now. People with different priorities. People that don't want a compromise vehicle..

Can anyone say Troll?

I agree with you, but there are very few people in this world I would give the keys of my cruiser to, letalone tell them to drive over some rocks or something.

There would have to be a way to standardise things a bit. Any ideas out there?

I spose we could line each car up, point the wheels a certain way, put them in the lowest possible gear, etc....

It has taken you this long to realise that?

I knew toyota salesmen were slow, but COME ON!!!!

lol

The argument is about the way BruSav has rammed his point down the throats of everyone here, continuously and without listening to anyone else. He has said that the SUV is the ducks nuts, and everything else is a compromise.

He was not saying we should all enjoy what we drive. He was shouting we should all enjoy what HE drives.

Why does my need for a large 4WD offend you? I have never "driven over" anybody. In fact, I am quite a curtious driver on the road (if I do say so myself!).

And it is Mr Legend to the like of you, sonny jim....

Anyway, the post started out quite differently. Very few people have actually responded to the original post.

Mr Legend,

That's exactly my point. Your gripe is not about the car but about the fact that he has repeatedly posted the same info, about how great his car is, on three posts. On the SAME forum. I thought that was a bit high and mighty of him to do that too, and if he included some links to some dodgy USA stats, I'd say that Johno1 was back.

As for what you quote him saying, I think you're getting so hotheaded you're misreading it.

Now about that competition to find the better vehicle. Lets have a contest of who can park their car under my house. Unless you are prepared to scrape off the whole roof of your car, you will loose.

"Horses for courses"

Your obedient subject,
Sonny Jim.

I have gotten a bit hot headed further up, I agree. I do apologise.

I think we are all agreeing, but from slightly different angles. Your needs are for a car to fit under your house. Thats great, because that is your need. Not anyone elses. And it is up to noone else to judge you for that.

The difference with you is that you aren't claiming I should buy a car that you can fit under your house, as that has nothing to do with me.

I do wish BruSav would respond to at least one of my questions though. He keeps making statements, not reponses.

Cheers

Exactly, you have more of a problem with the person and not so much with the car. Me too.

Now everyone take a deep breath in........
........ and out.

Now isn't that better.

:)

R.

We all agree it is a blur. Who cares? I thought you were hell bent on converting us to your kluger.

I just don't see the need for me to purchase a kluger, or any SUV, or any vehicle that I don't need.

My original post was about getting a group of people together, soft roaders and real 4WD's, and seeing what each can do. I am sure we would all be quite shocked at how far some of the soft roaders will go.

I just don't need some prat forcing his views down my throat.

In my opinion, the VW is a real 4WD. So is a Vitara. So is a Terrano. None of them suit my needs. Thats why I didn't buy any of them.

"Unsolicited buyer review of a vehicle"
I have never seen anyone who has just shelled out the big $$$$ admit to anyone on this or any other forum that they bought the wrong vehicle.

So how can your view be "unsolicited" as you appear to need to justify to yourself at least that you DID buy the right car for you.

I like my car to but I don't feel the need to justify the purchase by raving to the world that it's the best.

Clearly a perspective that see's some logic to the discussion.
As for my question about the Touareg, here is one review that uses lots of terms, like 4WD, true off-roader.

http://www.mynrma.com.au/touareg-v10_volktouareg.asp

This still confuses the issue about 4WD's. I really think that after all this, a 4WD (in the true sense of the meaning as we blokes can relate) has at least 200mm of ground clearance from its lowest measurable point to the ground. Adding anything more to the definition confuses the issue. So if this is true, the Outback is a 4WD, the Kluger IS NOT, neither is the Territory. I don't know where they fit in. You fella's work that out after considering the Tourag specs.

Hi D-Jack, am interested in your 2 inch lift on your jack. What is the rough cost? and how do you think it will change the handling qualities ?
Will

Hear Hear!!

Check out.....?

and the point is????????????

At least I now know what ISO quality system design is...

Bruce Saville
Telephone: 07-3282****
Fax: 07-3202 ****
Email: q****@bigpond.com
Home Address: ** B******e St I*****h 4***
Profile: • Quality management systems specialist with 11 years consulting experience in all facets of manufacturing and service industries.
• Aviation maintenance engineering background.
• 100% client certification success rate.
• Verycost-effective systems, with average ISO9001 system costing $2,500 - $3,500.

My point is I now know where to find an opinionated management consultant at home if ever I need one.

ya craking me up Chris

What an entertain arvo

You guys are lucky I have had a slow day.

I'll email bruce off line tonight, just to assure you there are no hard feelings - and to hand over some personal info of my own as a good will gesture.

Alternatively, I could write the details on every bit of paper money I get from now on before spending it.

Or post the odd salt block, COD of course, up to old Brucie...

Haven't quite decided yet.....

(I'm just messing with you Bruce...Chin up..)

yes go the maroons!!!

Being opinionated is healthy. The fact that I am so opinionated has actually made me successful. 'Tempered' arrogance is another of my traits. If I were a 'pleb', I guess I would follow everyone else and do what they do because I can't think for myself. I am not only opininated, I am analytical and objective to the point of making an informed opinion. I've done that enough times to remain self-employed and not have to worry where my next $ is going to come from. Can't be all bad being opinionated can it?

So why buy an SUV? Everyone else is.......apparantly....

Whats a Moron ? Sorry Maroons ?

I'm back!! Damm kids wanting to chat with their friends. Chris, Chris Chris. This will make you happy. If I was going to travel around Oz for say 6 months towing a van with a tinny on top, then I'd do it with a Prado, Cruiser or Patrol. The same if I went and bought another 6M GRP boat. Fact is, that is what these rigs do best. I'd probably sell it when I got back though. Money no object; a Cayenne turbo would be a scream until I blew my licence (I'm 47 and you know that you can't take the boy out of the man when a Porsche is in your garage). What fits best is what you wear I guess. On a different subject. Who has climbed Mt.Warning (West of Murwillumbah? I am not keen to be opinionated here because the rating is either easy or strenuous, depending on what you read on the net. I have climbed it and unless someone wants a rating/review on the climb from an experienced bush walker, then I'll hold my tongue.

Who has climbed Mt.Warning

Actually , before they made it a pay to view , we used to run up that for training.

I have Mt Warning in the background of my wedding photos.

I have walked and run up it more times then I REALLY care to remember

Mate thats the BEST post on this thread, I really needed the laugh you just gave me.
I have had a $hit week and that just made it a whole lot better.
When I die and come back I want to be the new Jeddah at your place, "My own 4wd with a chauffeur, And I'm allowed to slobber on the windows" (Can you buy me a Troopy instead of the 60 series)
Just love it. ROTFLMAO x 10