4WD Testing

Submitted: Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 11:11
ThreadID: 24078 Views:5647 Replies:28 FollowUps:70
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Folks,

Following on from that post about the kluger below, would anyone be interested in meeting up one day to see exactly what different 4WD's could over the same obsticles? I mean, I have read the kluger post about how the kluger will go anywhere a normal 4WD will go. Why not see if there is any truth in that?

I'm sure if we got enough different vehicles together, it would actually be quite beneficial. SUV's, "real" 4bys, even some true softroaders.

We could set up a few obsticles, like a hill climb, over some rocks, on some sand, in some mud, etc... and just see what each vehicle can do.

Nothing too hard, and we could see things like wheel lift, ground clearance, traction control, etc..

I drive a 100 series cruiser, but it would be interesting to see how much of the marketing hype about the SUV's is actually true.
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Reply By: BruSav - Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 11:54

Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 11:54
Chris_legend,

Where did you read, "I have read the kluger post about how the kluger will go anywhere a normal 4WD will go". T'was not me that said that, check your source on that one! Whilst on the point, check the definition of '4x4'. My Magna TL AWD is classified as a 4x4 drivertrain, so are all SUV's. For the record, the primary difference with your 'real' 4x4 and the SUV 4x4 is:

1. Ground clearance.
2. Approach and departure clearance.
3. Wet proofing (i.e. air intake).

Think hard about why the major manufacturer's are all jumping onto the SUV wagon. Simple answer, there is a need. And that need arises because buyers no longer want the choice of a Tarago, Voyager or large 'traditional' fourby because they are all a compromise. They want space, versatility, performace and AWD safety and they don't want a high centre of gravity wagon that is pre-disposed by design to flip!! Check out the debacle in the US over the Ford Explorer roll-over law suits. Here's a better way to assess capability. Start clocking your odo over 12 months and tally up how much time your 4x4 actually spends in 'real 4x4' country and how much time was spent on the bitumen (going to the shops, school, golf course etc). Me thinks it will be less than 5% in genuine off road country. Or put another way, the SUV will go 95% in the country the owner wants to travel over the same 12 months. Food for thought. That's how the equation looks to me. As for our Kluger, it has spent atleast 25% of its odo reading off the bitumen and there has not been one gram of compromise to date.
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Follow Up By: chris_legend_25 - Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 12:03

Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 12:03
So I assume you won't come out with us to test the various vehicles?

lol
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Follow Up By: Wombat - Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 12:06

Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 12:06
So there Chris!

I, for one, will be racing down to my nearest Toyota dealer to buy a Kluger. Thanks BruSav for saving me all that precious time I would have wasted doing my own research. I s'pose I can't really expect to get much of a trade in though, now that "buyers no longer want the choice of a Tarago, Voyager or large 'traditional' fourby because they are all a compromise".
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Follow Up By: Member - John (Vic) - Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 12:10

Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 12:10
Hmmm!!!!! I still think you need to disclose your Licensed Motor car Traders (LMCT) number and perhaps identify your dealer name if you want to persist on selling cars to the public.
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Follow Up By: chris_legend_25 - Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 12:11

Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 12:11
lol...the trouble with this parrot is that he is preaching to the 5% of people that actually use this forum. Thats why we are here.

Harold Scru....I mean BruSav is picking to wrong place to advertise his glorified falcon....
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Follow Up By: chris_legend_25 - Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 12:12

Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 12:12
Sorry, I mean the 5% of people that actually use their 4WD's.

I don't know what I was thinking.
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Follow Up By: Member - Crazie (VIC) - Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 12:21

Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 12:21
I was of the understanding that the ford explorer flip over issue was directly related to the faulty firestone tyre issue and not because it was a 4WD. I wouldn't think that an explorer would sit much higher than a Kluger...
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Follow Up By: Exploder - Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 18:09

Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 18:09
Yep that is right, my explorer is stable. I think you will find the large amount of injuries occurred due to the fact that yanks don’t like wearing seatbelt’s.

P.S I have seen footage of the firestone tyres separating (Scary stuff, the tyre just fell apart).

As for clearance the lowest point on mine (the rear diff) is 195mm.

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Reply By: BruSav - Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 12:19

Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 12:19
No, there is nothing to prove except to yourselves. You fella's keep missing the point about SUV marketing point. There is no point trying to compare because they are sold to different marketsplace customers. You can agree to disagree, but it's a fact.

Like I said, the Prado was taken off our list because it did not fit our driving needs, versus its drawbacks of weight and poor enonomy and safety compromise. Prado has nothing to prove to me or you, it's a great vehicle if you want to fully exploit its potential. Toyota worked that out in 2001 with the Highlander release o/seas. There was a need below the Prado and above the RAV4. It sells and keeps on selling because there is a market need. That fact is bourne out in the latest VFACT where Territory is no No1 selling medium 4X4, not Prado. That must tell you something about buyer perception.
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Follow Up By: chris_legend_25 - Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 12:25

Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 12:25
Read my resonse above.

Most, if not all of the people on this forum actually do take their vehicles off road. Not just on dirt tracks.

I do agree SUV's are a good compromise for people that want a bit of room and to travel along a few dirt tracks.

That is not us at all! Most of the poeple here go camping. We tow trailers. We use our vehicles for what they were designed for.

You would do just as well finding a dirt-bike forum. I mean, an SUV would not be as noisy, and would keep you drier in the rain...
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Follow Up By: Wombat - Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 12:28

Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 12:28
Once again, thanks for putting me straight on how marketing works.

It's funny though - according to the latest sales figures Toyota is the only local manufacturer whose sales have fallen this year, dipping 2.8 per cent to 76,431 units, having lost ground in its traditional areas of strength, light trucks and SUVs.
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Follow Up By: Member - Crazie (VIC) - Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 12:29

Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 12:29
Has the Territory actually taken sales from the Prado compared to prior years sales of the Prado or is the increase since the introduction of the Territory from people upgrating to the "SUV" from a sedan.
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Follow Up By: chris_legend_25 - Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 12:32

Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 12:32
What? You want actual facts from this parrot?

Crazie...what are you thinking?

lol
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Reply By: BruSav - Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 12:23

Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 12:23
Sorry fellas, it's not 'preaching'. It's called an alternative point of view. I can feel here that none of you fellas have likley driven an SUV like the Kluger or Territory, so there is no point debating the point further until you do (and do it off the bitumen). Cheers!
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Follow Up By: chris_legend_25 - Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 12:27

Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 12:27
So? Come out with us one day, and show us how good it is.
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Follow Up By: Member - Crazie (VIC) - Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 12:32

Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 12:32
I do not think anyone is debating that they are not a good vehicle for what they are made for, i have seen a few SUV's where i didnt think they would make it and was totally impressed.
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Follow Up By: Member - Crazie (VIC) - Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 12:34

Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 12:34
If you read the responses above, they are all offering you a alternative view..
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Follow Up By: chris_legend_25 - Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 12:35

Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 12:35
I think BruSav is taking his bat and ball and going home.....
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Follow Up By: Wombat - Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 12:38

Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 12:38
No BruSav, IT IS PREACHING! The way you have bombarded this forum with cut and paste copies of your advertorials is what has raised peoples hackles. It smacks of promotion with a vested interest and it is why so many responses have been so negative. If you are genuinely happy with your choice of vehicle, congratulations! But, stop ramming it down our throats. You are doing yourself and the Toyota Kluger no favours with your blatant promotion.
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Follow Up By: GaryInOz (Vic) - Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 17:01

Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 17:01
There really is NOTHING new about the concept behind what is now known as an SUV "Soft roader"

Subaru exploited that niche first with the "ugly duckling" subaru 1400 4WD wagon of the mid 70's.

To our dear Totota dealer (BruSav), welcome to thirty years ago....that is how far Toyota REALLY are behind the times.

One notable point is that the old Subies would (and did) go a lot further off road that the Kluger would. There was one member of the Victorian Subaru club in the late 70's that took a Subie across the Simpson, in the days when it was a real challenge even getting there.

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Reply By: BruSav - Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 12:37

Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 12:37
No, the medium size SUV category only established itself in late 2003. Last month VFACT data has that segment taking more market share due to new models and new buyers. Ford is not losing out on too many Falcon wagon sales due to the Territory. The VFACT data suggests that there is a migration of buyers away from the traditional 4x4/people mover (Tarago etc) to the medium size SUV slot. You fellas in the 5% "hard core" (as you put it) are not the issue with my view point. It's the other 95% of traditional 4x4 owners that are my target for response (the Toorak Taxi drivers).
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Follow Up By: Wombat - Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 12:42

Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 12:42
May we ask what you do for a living BruSav?
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Follow Up By: Member - Crazie (VIC) - Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 12:54

Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 12:54
Think you are generalising the people on here as "Hard core".... I would think most people on here would fitting in the 4wding category, which I would assume, your target market, , not necessarily hard core
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Follow Up By: chris_legend_25 - Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 13:08

Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 13:08
We are hardly hard core.

We buy vehicles that suit our needs. Our needs are obviously different to yours.

Good luck, and if ever I see you in the bush, I will wave goodbye as I go where I want, not where my compromise won't take me....
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Follow Up By: Member - Crazie (VIC) - Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 13:14

Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 13:14
thats very funny Chris hahaha, i liked it.
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Follow Up By: chris_legend_25 - Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 13:16

Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 13:16
This has actually turned out to be an interesting lunchtime for me.

And here I was just going to eat my sushi and read a book!
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Reply By: BruSav - Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 12:58

Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 12:58
No probs. I am self employed designing ISO quality systems. I practice what I preach. I preach continious improvement and seek clients to implement feedback to improve their bottom line. Most of the vehicle manufactures aspire to this same concept and the proof is in the product you drive. Which you all will no doubt agree is now pretty good compared to 20 years ago Even the Koreans are working it out (Terracan CRD in point). I bet in the next 5 years or so you will all witness big changes in car design and function. Environmental issues will be a big push. Change is good; accept it. I found that out with the Kluger and I for one am glad that the medium SUV segment is now well established. I too go camping (except I use a roof pod not tow a trailer), I tow a medium size boat and I was born and bred in the Snowy Mountains. I still live in a semi-rural setting. I like the outdoors and enjoy access to National Parks. So, I'm not too differennt from you fella's (just a tad out spoken). No apologies for that. And by the way:

ExplorOz is an interactive site for people interested in camping, four wheel driving and caravanning in Australia. Used by more than 370,000 readers each month, this is the leading reference for Australian travellers!

Not just hard a site for core 4x4 owners. Thought that might be a point I should clear up. And one last point, my last 3 familiy cars were all Fords. Cheers!
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Follow Up By: chris_legend_25 - Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 13:11

Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 13:11
You design ISO quality systems?

What the hell does that mean?

Since when does "Toyota Evangelist" = "ISO quality systems"?
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Follow Up By: Wombat - Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 13:15

Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 13:15
As Crazie has already suggested most people on ExplorOz would not fall into the 'Hard core 4WD' genre. I would also humbly suggest, with no disrespect intended that the majority of posters on this forum, although opinionated, are a lot less bombastic with the expression of their points of view, and if you intend to be a regular contributor (and I'm sure most would welcome you with open arms) you should temper the strength of your conviction. Once again congratulations on the purchase of a vehicle which YOU are so obviously delighted with.
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Follow Up By: Skinny- Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 14:28

Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 14:28
What did you start Chris? To me the problem is people in the media let advertsiers convince them that the marketing is more important than the product .

They promise that who ever has the cash can do anything.. There are many people who own "real 4x4" who should not be let loose either in the city or the bush.

I grew up on the land and went most anywhere in the old holden (dents and scrapes) and occasionally had to have the tractor rescue me.it is not about who can do what, but why do we care (my dads bigger than your dad syndrome)

My concern and I am guessing the concern of others is that well made large vehicles capable of carrying a load and pulling a load with simple reliable set ups are being lableled in the same class as "popular" city imitations that costs just as much but are lightly built and unable to deliver in the other areas.
These AWD SUV MMC (My Mrs Car) are not the same and yet they are being called "the go anywhere 4x4 " .It will get to the stage when most people will not be able to buy a well built powerful off road vehicle any longer because they will not be real SUV's.

It is great we have choice but lets not confuse the labels so much that we delude ourselves.

If I won the lottery tomorrow I would buy my wife an AWD and have the 80 series washes and polished.You buy what you want and stop trying to convice me.

I have had it up to here with spin doctors and self interested people highjacking what seems a good place for genuine people to meet on line.

By the way Bru Sav, statistic are not the truth just a way of amusing people who like making generalisations.
Cheers

Skinny
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Follow Up By: chris_legend_25 - Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 14:40

Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 14:40
Skinny,

I'm with you on the cruiser. Mines a 100 series, but the 98 GXL with the live axle. It's a diesel, no turbo, manual, split rims, and it is what I went looking for. I'm happy with it, and most importantly, my wife is happy with it.

An SUV as a second car would be pointless for us, as it wouldn't be taken off road. We are looking round for a little corolla or something, because thats what suits us.

This setup may not suit anyone else in the world, but us.

Not many people either realsie this, or respect this.

Next thing you know, someone will be whinging about all the pot I have growing out the back.....lol
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Reply By: Member - Bernard - Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 13:05

Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 13:05
I reckon all the vehicles and types of vehicle described above have a place and serve the needs of various buyers.

After all, let's not forget that most of this great country of ours was originally opened-up years ago by hardy adventurers driving 2WD vehicles that, today, we would hesitate to drive to the corner shop.

My pet peeve is the Yank term SUV ... we don't need it as our termionologies in Australia are more than adequate to describe various types of vehicles.

Territory and Adventr are "crossover" vehicles and quite adequate for their designed use. AWD vehicles are just that ... full-time all wheel drive. Whereas, most 4x4 vehicles are part-time four-wheel drive and have low-range available.

Sure, very few fourbies are off the road as much as on. On average over the last three years mine would equate to 15% off-road ... but we do lots of long-distance travel and need the luggage room, plus the ability to off-road when we get the chance.

I've had all sorts of cars over the last 47-years ... including six high-luxury jobs ... and loved them all -- except the flaming Rover Van den Plas. Currently have a Mitsubishi Pajero which is perfect for our current needs.

I hope we all continue to enjoy -- and treasure? -- our vehicles .Let's enjoy our country ... still the best in the world.
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Reply By: flappa - Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 13:11

Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 13:11
Other then the advertorial , I actually agree with the basics of the Kluger posts.

They are designed an built for a specific purpose (like the Territory), and I think they are ideal for that purpose.

In some ways they make far more sense to own then a Full Size 4wd or People Mover.

I'm interested in a Territory myself.
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Reply By: vitara - Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 13:18

Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 13:18
Hi to you all, have been keeping a watch on this to see how it progresses. No body has mentioned the fact that a true 4wd has a low range, klugers, rav4s, late model suburu,territorys, magnas, even early model taragos had AWD.I'm with chris_legend_25 here with this one. People should get a life on the weekends and istead of sitting at their local cafe having a lat'e maybe we should put this to a small test as chris has mentioned oh and by the way I do use my'n at least for a full weekend every fortnight. I would like to see some of these so called SUV/ALL WHEEL DRIVES go were I take myn I DONT THINK SO. And I dont mean just for a ratbag I'm talking of dunking the bonnet under water so I can get to the other side of the water so my wife friends and 2 year old have a nice quit weekend away.And yes the issue with the explorers was with the firestone tyres.No offence to anyone with an awd great cars/wagons/suv/ saftey etc but please dont tell us, with fair dinkim 4wds that they go the same places.And yes there is a lot of them on the road that dont kike to even take theirfouby out in the rain let alone the dirt but every one is entitled to drive what the like. Oh and by the way I have a hilux d/cab 2.8 diesel (slug but gets me where I want & need to go) Take care Vitara
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Follow Up By: Wombat - Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 13:24

Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 13:24
Geez Vitara, I started to read your response, forgot to take a breath and nearly exploded!
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Reply By: chris_legend_25 - Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 13:20

Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 13:20
Actually, Ive just realised something. I have an old landrover series 2 out the back.

It is the best car ever. It's constant 4wd, aluminium, and doesn't go above 80km/h.

It is the best car ever built, and I think everyone should buy one. It is 35 years old, so all the problems are just about ironed out.

Have you all bought one yet? Why not? It suits my purpose, so it has to be perfect for you. (hang on, have to change hands...hard to type with only one...)

now, who do I sound like? Anyone?

lol

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Follow Up By: vitara - Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 13:30

Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 13:30
Sorry mate i'l stick to my lux mind you the old landi will still be going when my'n is dead and buried. but it suits my purpose I think !!! Take care Vitara
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Follow Up By: BruSav - Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 13:33

Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 13:33
Totallay agree. Fond memories as a kid of one of those stuck up in the mud near Dead Horse Gap when there were no roads. That was a real classic model you should do it up and use it.
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Follow Up By: Member - Crazie (VIC) - Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 13:42

Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 13:42
hey chris

me too, not joking, i have a 69 landy series 2a pick up being put back together in my garage, thanks for confirming my purchase...
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Reply By: garrycol - Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 13:28

Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 13:28
Why not just read the magazines - I think 4x4 did a test just after the Territory came out with the Kluger, Commodore, Prado and Pajero - it pretty covered the pros and cons, I think the support vehicle was a 2wd Falcon RV - also did OK - highlighted driving approach is nearly as important as vehicle for most offroad work - as is ground clearance - 2wd Falcon did really well with its rear diff lock.

How can a wagon be a SUV - I though a ute was a vehicle like a Hilux etc - to me a SUV is a Falcon XR8 ute or a Commodore SS ute not a awd or 4wd wagon - these are softroaders or 4WDs - in Australia lets use Australian terms not daggy wanky US terminology - Thank goodness we never took to the term RV as a class of vehicles.
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Follow Up By: flappa - Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 13:39

Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 13:39
The U in SUV is Utility , as in many functions , not Ute that we use.

A wagon can be a Sports Utility Vehicle
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Follow Up By: BruSav - Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 13:43

Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 13:43
I read the mags and I also seek feedback on forums, cause' that is where you find out stuff dealers don't know and other users will divulge. I spend weeks doing all this before I spent the dough. We're stuck with SUV and that is that from the marketing angle. 'RV' is the choice term, it got lost in 03 when the Territory came out; blame Ford for that fopar. Don't forget that Subaru started the crossover trend (and they did'nt know it till it started); always has been sold as AWD and still is sold as AWD. Territory and Kluger badge reads 'AWD'. Check out the Subbie B90 (?) it's SUV!
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Follow Up By: chris_legend_25 - Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 13:43

Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 13:43
I don't read magazine reviews, because:
a) they know the answers they want before they start,
b) they only test new vehicles against other new vehicles,
c) the test pool is very limited.

I want a comparison accross as many different types of vehicles as possible. New and Old. Unmodified, and slightly modified. crossover, SUV, 4X4, and whatever else shows up.

Imagine if we could get 100 vehicles accross, say 10 different obsticles, that would be as unbiased an opinion as you could get.

When I say obsticles, I also mean things like stopping distances on gravel from 60km/h, and things like that. Not just rock hopping.
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Follow Up By: GaryInOz (Vic) - Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 17:10

Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 17:10
you forgot point d)

"They are paid handsomely by the manufacturers for favourable reports" (most notably, by Toyota). Not absolutely directly mind you, but by excessive advertising space (see how many Nissan ads are in the mags)
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Reply By: Footloose - Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 13:45

Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 13:45
I can see difficulties with such a test. Different expectations of a 4wd vehicle for one.
For example a decent Suzi will beat my LC80 every time in the Simpson. But it can't carry much gear, is slower and less comfortable on the tar etc.
Certainly more upmarket vehicles are more comfortable and have bigger boom boxes. Along with electrics that defy the home mechanic on the Plenty Highway.
Now a more modern "pretend" 4wd will be better in most dpts on the road.
But thats not where mine was designed to go.
Any 4wd with a big lift will get over stuff I wouldn't touch. Some will swim (drift:) better. Some might even have better dust and soundproofing. Turbos will go faster and tow much better.
But do I need or want all this stuff ? Am I prepared to pay off the National Debt for it ?
Do I really want to go rock hopping /river swimming/track/vehicle busting ?
Not on your life. For me, 4wds are to get you out of trouble, not into it.
I want a vehicle I can be sure will not only get me there but back. Safely and comfortably. Anywhere I want to travel.
My wife wants a heavy one. (yes there's a story behind that :)
Now that's not everyones bag.
Horses for courses.

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Follow Up By: BruSav - Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 13:59

Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 13:59
Makes perfect sense to me. Right on, "horses for courses". I've never seen a 'top shelf' Landcruiser, Prado, XR, Cayeene or Rangie with scrapes down the side of the paint and dings in the undercarriage.
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Follow Up By: chris_legend_25 - Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 13:59

Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 13:59
Most of that sort of data is readily available. Power, weight, cargo space, etc... we could download for the vehicles we were interested in.

Heavily modded vehicles would not be a good test.

But I am interested in things that aren't published, and can only be tested by running several vehicles over the same test, and seeing what happens.

One may do it with no wheel spin, but have a wheel 2 feet in the air. One may bottom out and not make it, wheras a vehicle with a similar ground clearance may not bottom out.

These are things that would be interesting.
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Follow Up By: chris_legend_25 - Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 14:01

Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 14:01
Why do dings and scratches make a "real" 4WD?
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Follow Up By: Al & Mrs Al (Vic) - Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 14:07

Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 14:07
Hi Chris, I asked myself the same question "dings and scratches" may just mean a track was narrow. Personally the "real" 4wd is the person behind the wheel who knows the capabilities or not of their vehicle; personally I'd rather pull the pin on a track rather than put anyone or thing at risk.

This has certainly been an interesting read, thanks fellas.

cheers

Lyn
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Follow Up By: chris_legend_25 - Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 14:13

Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 14:13
I think the same way as you, Lyn.

Only I normally think it about 30 seconds too late. Usually as I can feel the vehicle sliding down the hill, stuck in the wheel ruts.

The next thought is usually "damn, hope I don't have to go back that way"....
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Reply By: Member - Troll 81 (QLD) - Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 13:57

Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 13:57
this post is getting out of hand...very funny to read though and it keeps me entertained at work, checking back every 15 min or so to see something else...now I agree with chris_legend_25 .....we should all meet and see how the SUV go's against a real 4x4
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Follow Up By: chris_legend_25 - Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 14:03

Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 14:03
Not just against real 4WD's, but also against each other.

We should see if we can get a couple of cars along as well, just to see what the differences are.

Would be quite funny to see a Magna or something do something just 1 crossover couldn't do.

Phots posted on a web site would be a must, of course!
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Follow Up By: vitara - Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 14:14

Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 14:14
Yeah I can just see it, a suburu sitting up on the rock like the pic of your patrol, oops but it's not standard 2inch lift. I'd like to see a kluger do this with a 2 inch lift as well maybe a rav 4 may be a holden cruze you know those suzuki ignis rebadged a holden or is it the other way round ah who cares neither/ any of them could do it anyway. They wouln'd have low range to get up it. !!!!!!!!! Take care Vitara
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Follow Up By: Tonester - Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 14:19

Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 14:19
Gee I missed out on some great and halarious timewasters prior to reading this forum daily. Man, that membership I think I will get now. Prompted from one of these recent similar threads, just did a search & read on johnno1, nuff said. Took a long lunch to do it too!

But back on topic, time to do so is one problem but yes interesting to see a line up of different vehicles. Was out at Wombat State for a bbq the other week, and saw a tiny & low little thing succeed navigating over a couple rocks, bump & grind included. I reckon there would be some suprises in a lineup.

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Follow Up By: Member - Crazie (VIC) - Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 15:51

Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 15:51
I am in too, but you cannot laugh at my Jack hahaha is it a real 4wd hahaha, you bet ya........It will love to joining in the test...
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Follow Up By: Member - Davoe (Widgiemooltha) - Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 22:23

Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 22:23
Hey Tonester 75% of Johonno1 s threads and all his multaple peronalities er I mean aliuses were deleted - Imagine how long that would have taken!!
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FollowupID: 372473

Reply By: BruSav - Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 14:10

Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 14:10
Good to read that all you fellas 'south of the border' are all hard at work and enlightened by the topic of recent conversation. Nice to know that some of you have the testosterone still flowing. It's been a good topic to discuss, judging by some of the responses! I didn't get the wrong end of the real 4x4 story, but I feel that the softroader 4x4 is a good segment to promote and buy into, so long as the buyer does their research into the capabilities of their chosen vehicle.
AnswerID: 116892

Follow Up By: chris_legend_25 - Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 14:15

Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 14:15
You didn't discuss anything. You didn't answer any questions.

You just typed at us. At speed, no less.

I think people like you should realise there are other people in the world, which hopefully you do now. People with different priorities. People that don't want a compromise vehicle..

Can anyone say Troll?
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Reply By: Footloose - Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 14:14

Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 14:14
Figures and stats don't tell the whole story in the real world. Perhaps a vehicle could have 2 goes at a course, one with the owner and one with the owner of a different type of vehicle ?
AnswerID: 116893

Follow Up By: chris_legend_25 - Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 14:18

Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 14:18
I agree with you, but there are very few people in this world I would give the keys of my cruiser to, letalone tell them to drive over some rocks or something.

There would have to be a way to standardise things a bit. Any ideas out there?

I spose we could line each car up, point the wheels a certain way, put them in the lowest possible gear, etc....
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Reply By: BruSav - Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 14:19

Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 14:19
The flip side to your point is that when you drive your crusier on the bitumen, you are in fact driving a 'road compomised' vehicle. Logically therefore, I drive an 'off road compomised vehicle". 6 of 1, 1/2 doz of the other
AnswerID: 116894

Follow Up By: chris_legend_25 - Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 14:22

Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 14:22
It has taken you this long to realise that?

I knew toyota salesmen were slow, but COME ON!!!!

lol
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Reply By: robak (QLD) - Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 14:39

Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 14:39
Chirs_legend
(is that your real name?)

Although Brusav feels the need to justify his purchase to us repeteadly, I must say that i agree with him. You buy a car for what you'll use it for.(unless you buy it just for show). He only wants to use it on some light dirt tracks and camping. The kluger is good for that. His point is that everyone buys a car for their own needs.

Chris, being a legend and all, you have a need to drive over everthing in your path. Which is fair enough, so you bought a car which fits those needs.

BruSav ahsn't said anywhere that the kluger will go where the "real" 4wd will go
So, what's the arguement about.

R.
AnswerID: 116895

Follow Up By: chris_legend_25 - Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 14:47

Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 14:47
The argument is about the way BruSav has rammed his point down the throats of everyone here, continuously and without listening to anyone else. He has said that the SUV is the ducks nuts, and everything else is a compromise.

He was not saying we should all enjoy what we drive. He was shouting we should all enjoy what HE drives.

Why does my need for a large 4WD offend you? I have never "driven over" anybody. In fact, I am quite a curtious driver on the road (if I do say so myself!).

And it is Mr Legend to the like of you, sonny jim....
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FollowupID: 372386

Follow Up By: chris_legend_25 - Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 14:56

Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 14:56
Anyway, the post started out quite differently. Very few people have actually responded to the original post.
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Follow Up By: robak (QLD) - Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 15:10

Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 15:10
Mr Legend,

That's exactly my point. Your gripe is not about the car but about the fact that he has repeatedly posted the same info, about how great his car is, on three posts. On the SAME forum. I thought that was a bit high and mighty of him to do that too, and if he included some links to some dodgy USA stats, I'd say that Johno1 was back.

As for what you quote him saying, I think you're getting so hotheaded you're misreading it.

Now about that competition to find the better vehicle. Lets have a contest of who can park their car under my house. Unless you are prepared to scrape off the whole roof of your car, you will loose.

"Horses for courses"

Your obedient subject,
Sonny Jim.

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FollowupID: 372390

Follow Up By: chris_legend_25 - Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 15:19

Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 15:19
I have gotten a bit hot headed further up, I agree. I do apologise.

I think we are all agreeing, but from slightly different angles. Your needs are for a car to fit under your house. Thats great, because that is your need. Not anyone elses. And it is up to noone else to judge you for that.

The difference with you is that you aren't claiming I should buy a car that you can fit under your house, as that has nothing to do with me.

I do wish BruSav would respond to at least one of my questions though. He keeps making statements, not reponses.

Cheers
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FollowupID: 372392

Follow Up By: robak (QLD) - Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 15:32

Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 15:32
Exactly, you have more of a problem with the person and not so much with the car. Me too.

Now everyone take a deep breath in........
........ and out.

Now isn't that better.

:)

R.

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FollowupID: 372397

Reply By: Member - Troll 81 (QLD) - Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 14:53

Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 14:53
I am over this post, one would think we are all 12 year old fighting over a little matchbox car. I am going home now have a good arvo
AnswerID: 116897

Reply By: BruSav - Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 14:59

Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 14:59
Chris_legend,

Conversation, discussion or forum; as I see it, it's an opportunity for an exchange of views. Lets recap from 21/06:

1. I provided an unsolicited buyer review of a vehicle. The purpose was to provide an opportunity for others to read about the Kluger from someone who bought one. Doing so is usefull for others so they can help themselves with making an informed decision when considering a purchase.

2. Feedback by some regular 4x4 owners raised a few 'hackles' about my 'review'.

3. There are conflicting viewpoints that have difficulty defining 4X4 v's SUV/RV.

Here is a defining question to all participating. Is a VW Toureg V10/Td5 a 4x4 or SUV (softroader)???? Check its clearance and gearbox ratio specs before you reply. This is a good example of the blur between real 4x4 and softroad design.
AnswerID: 116899

Follow Up By: chris_legend_25 - Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 15:13

Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 15:13
We all agree it is a blur. Who cares? I thought you were hell bent on converting us to your kluger.

I just don't see the need for me to purchase a kluger, or any SUV, or any vehicle that I don't need.

My original post was about getting a group of people together, soft roaders and real 4WD's, and seeing what each can do. I am sure we would all be quite shocked at how far some of the soft roaders will go.

I just don't need some prat forcing his views down my throat.

In my opinion, the VW is a real 4WD. So is a Vitara. So is a Terrano. None of them suit my needs. Thats why I didn't buy any of them.

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FollowupID: 372391

Follow Up By: Member - John (Vic) - Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 20:23

Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 20:23
"Unsolicited buyer review of a vehicle"
I have never seen anyone who has just shelled out the big $$$$ admit to anyone on this or any other forum that they bought the wrong vehicle.

So how can your view be "unsolicited" as you appear to need to justify to yourself at least that you DID buy the right car for you.

I like my car to but I don't feel the need to justify the purchase by raving to the world that it's the best.
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Reply By: D-Jack - Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 15:11

Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 15:11
Fellas,

I don't really know what to make of this thread. My first opinion is that Chris, you are a legend only in your own luchbox. Check Brusavs thread. He says be bought a Kluger, why he bought it, how it is performing for him. It is very helpful for anyone thinking of buying an AWD in the near future, or contemplating a Territory (something to think about given Territory was wheels car of the year) He does not say it is a capable as a cruiser/patrol or even more capable vehicle like a Jackaroo, he says it suits his needs perfectly. You may have taken the link in his post to a previous thread where some jockey did lay down the gauntlet and claim driver skill was everything, vehicle is nothing.

Nobody is doubting that a cruiser/patrol will go further than a territory/kluger etc without low range and good clearance, you seem chris to be arguing against yourself, and drawing other sheep into the argument.

Good on you fellas for getting a more eco-friendly, comfortable, better on road, safer, better appointed SUV/AWD if you didn't want or need a biggie 4x4.

As for me, I'll stick to low range and good clearance (except for my transfer case - getting lifted 2 inches soon) I probably use the Jack for proper 4x4ing 2% of the time, but I get comfort knowing when I get to the end of the dirt track, I can keep going if I want. And also during the floods in Adelaide, it will traverse flooded roads that ordinarly cars would drown in!

D-Jack
AnswerID: 116900

Follow Up By: BruSav - Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 15:21

Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 15:21
Clearly a perspective that see's some logic to the discussion.
As for my question about the Touareg, here is one review that uses lots of terms, like 4WD, true off-roader.

http://www.mynrma.com.au/touareg-v10_volktouareg.asp

This still confuses the issue about 4WD's. I really think that after all this, a 4WD (in the true sense of the meaning as we blokes can relate) has at least 200mm of ground clearance from its lowest measurable point to the ground. Adding anything more to the definition confuses the issue. So if this is true, the Outback is a 4WD, the Kluger IS NOT, neither is the Territory. I don't know where they fit in. You fella's work that out after considering the Tourag specs.
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Follow Up By: Willb - Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 15:36

Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 15:36
Hi D-Jack, am interested in your 2 inch lift on your jack. What is the rough cost? and how do you think it will change the handling qualities ?
Will
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Reply By: F4Phantom - Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 15:20

Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 15:20
Here is a slightly different point of view on the soft road/4x4 idea - an expansion of the horses for courses. I think its the attitude of the driver which defines the type of vehicle rarther than buying a vehicle, then trying to find it's limitations. Many people buy a real 4x4 and as some people on this post suggest, then try steer clear 4x4 situations. I on the flip side seem to get stuck, have to turn back, or get bogged nearly everytime I go out, this is because if I am having a particuarly easy time of it, I try to find someting harder, steeper, deeper and more challenging. This is where I find enjoyment in the whole outdoors & adventure side of this pastime. Others may enjoy a BBQ and hot chochlate near a stream, but need a 4x4 to get there - dont like the journey just the destination. Therefore they will choose a 4x4 with the most comfort and minimum ability to get to where they want to be on a saturday arvo. I and sure many others buy the most capable 4x4 they can compromise on, make it more capable and take it into the most extream terrain it will go, then tow it through the bit's it cant. When a water crossing was really good, turn around and do it again!! When it comes to the sitting around part, i also enjoy this a whole lot - better than spending all your time sitting at a computer on a forum with cyber friends - but usually the outdoor experiance is made up of the actual 4x4ing part.
AnswerID: 116901

Follow Up By: chris_legend_25 - Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 15:23

Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 15:23
Hear Hear!!
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Reply By: Willb - Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 15:24

Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 15:24
Your spot on about copy and pasting.
check out


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AnswerID: 116903

Follow Up By: chris_legend_25 - Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 15:27

Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 15:27
Check out.....?
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Reply By: Willb - Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 15:25

Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 15:25
should have had this as well

http://www.productreview.com.au/showitem.php?item_id=1501
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AnswerID: 116904

Reply By: chris_legend_25 - Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 15:37

Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 15:37
Tell you what I love about the web? Cross-site referencing.

For example. A quick check of product reviews shows BruSav is Bruce Saville.

We know he is from Queensland, so off to white pages we go. Damn. 2 of them.

Off to Google we go.

I hate ISO aviation management consultants as much as preachers......lol

Gotta love the web.
AnswerID: 116905

Follow Up By: BruSav - Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 15:47

Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 15:47
and the point is????????????
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Follow Up By: chris_legend_25 - Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 15:51

Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 15:51
At least I now know what ISO quality system design is...

Bruce Saville
Telephone: 07-3282****
Fax: 07-3202 ****
Email: q****@bigpond.com
Home Address: ** B******e St I*****h 4***
Profile: • Quality management systems specialist with 11 years consulting experience in all facets of manufacturing and service industries.
• Aviation maintenance engineering background.
• 100% client certification success rate.
• Verycost-effective systems, with average ISO9001 system costing $2,500 - $3,500.
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Follow Up By: chris_legend_25 - Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 15:55

Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 15:55
My point is I now know where to find an opinionated management consultant at home if ever I need one.
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Follow Up By: Member - Crazie (VIC) - Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 16:02

Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 16:02
ya craking me up Chris

What an entertain arvo
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FollowupID: 372406

Follow Up By: chris_legend_25 - Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 16:08

Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 16:08
You guys are lucky I have had a slow day.

I'll email bruce off line tonight, just to assure you there are no hard feelings - and to hand over some personal info of my own as a good will gesture.

Alternatively, I could write the details on every bit of paper money I get from now on before spending it.

Or post the odd salt block, COD of course, up to old Brucie...

Haven't quite decided yet.....

(I'm just messing with you Bruce...Chin up..)
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FollowupID: 372410

Reply By: BruSav - Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 15:56

Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 15:56
well I'm glad you cleared that up. At least we all know I don't work for Toyota! Go the Maroons!!
AnswerID: 116911

Follow Up By: Member - Crazie (VIC) - Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 16:05

Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 16:05
yes go the maroons!!!
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FollowupID: 372408

Follow Up By: BruSav - Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 16:06

Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 16:06
Being opinionated is healthy. The fact that I am so opinionated has actually made me successful. 'Tempered' arrogance is another of my traits. If I were a 'pleb', I guess I would follow everyone else and do what they do because I can't think for myself. I am not only opininated, I am analytical and objective to the point of making an informed opinion. I've done that enough times to remain self-employed and not have to worry where my next $ is going to come from. Can't be all bad being opinionated can it?
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FollowupID: 372409

Follow Up By: chris_legend_25 - Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 16:09

Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 16:09
So why buy an SUV? Everyone else is.......apparantly....
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FollowupID: 372411

Follow Up By: Member - John (Vic) - Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 20:26

Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 20:26
Whats a Moron ? Sorry Maroons ?
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Reply By: flappa - Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 16:13

Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 16:13
My thoughts on this thread.

Posting personal info in an attempt to discredit someone , who was only voicing their opinion , IMO , is very poor form. All you needed to do was establish he didn't work for Toyota.

OK, so he posted it a couple of times , at least he was consistent.

I tend to agree with his views.

If MORE people bought these type of vehicles , 4wds in General wouldn't get such a bad rap.

If this review convinced a few people to look at that market segment . . . excellent.

Chris , I think you overreacted to what was essentially ONE persons opinion of the Kluger.
AnswerID: 116914

Follow Up By: BruSav - Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 17:08

Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 17:08
I'm back!! Damm kids wanting to chat with their friends. Chris, Chris Chris. This will make you happy. If I was going to travel around Oz for say 6 months towing a van with a tinny on top, then I'd do it with a Prado, Cruiser or Patrol. The same if I went and bought another 6M GRP boat. Fact is, that is what these rigs do best. I'd probably sell it when I got back though. Money no object; a Cayenne turbo would be a scream until I blew my licence (I'm 47 and you know that you can't take the boy out of the man when a Porsche is in your garage). What fits best is what you wear I guess. On a different subject. Who has climbed Mt.Warning (West of Murwillumbah? I am not keen to be opinionated here because the rating is either easy or strenuous, depending on what you read on the net. I have climbed it and unless someone wants a rating/review on the climb from an experienced bush walker, then I'll hold my tongue.
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Follow Up By: flappa - Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 17:10

Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 17:10
Who has climbed Mt.Warning

Actually , before they made it a pay to view , we used to run up that for training.

I have Mt Warning in the background of my wedding photos.

I have walked and run up it more times then I REALLY care to remember
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FollowupID: 372419

Reply By: BruSav - Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 17:18

Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 17:18
Great answer. But if I had never climbed it, how do you rate it? This is the point of the forum and opinions. I'd rate the climb as strenuous on the basis that the average person would find it difficult. Personally, its none too hard if your fit and wear good footwear. The people we passed as they turned back had to find out they couldn't get up because no one told them it may be harder than they expected.
AnswerID: 116921

Reply By: Willem - Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 18:43

Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 18:43
Nothing wrong with being opinionated. It is a healthy passtime.

At my last birthday I received a fridge magnet reading "I have an attitude and I know how to use it"

I also do not believe in trying to discredit someone on this forum by publishing any details of them.

Each one of us buys the vehicle which will suit our needs within our budget constraints.

I have a Nissan Patrol GQ 4.2 diesel 1994 model. Outback tourer and good 4x4 when needed for that purpose. I am at an age where I don't have to prove anything but I still like to do the ocassional Hard Core trips.

My wife has a 2003 Nissan X Trail which she loves to death and uses as her transport for communting on bitumen and the many country gravel roads in the area where we live. She finds it a very sure footed AWD. We do not drive it in the beach or on scratchy tracks

Our dog has a 1984 Landcruiser HJ60 so that when she needs a ride she can hang out of the window and bark at whatever she wishes to. She may also slobber on the windows and jump on to the front seat when the Chauffer is out and about. Spoilt dog!!!

So the whole family is catered for...at an annual cost.
AnswerID: 116937

Follow Up By: Member - John (Vic) - Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 20:14

Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 20:14
Mate thats the BEST post on this thread, I really needed the laugh you just gave me.
I have had a $hit week and that just made it a whole lot better.
When I die and come back I want to be the new Jeddah at your place, "My own 4wd with a chauffeur, And I'm allowed to slobber on the windows" (Can you buy me a Troopy instead of the 60 series)
Just love it. ROTFLMAO x 10
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Reply By: timglobal - Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 23:09

Wednesday, Jun 22, 2005 at 23:09
Personally I find posting a user's personal details on the board as part of a school-yard spat rather poor form. Or an over-elaborate good cop / bad cop PR routine.

Both names seem quite new to me...

...no offence to conspiracy haters.
AnswerID: 116983

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