Pricks in tire joints with rattle guns

Submitted: Friday, Jul 29, 2005 at 21:29
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Well had new tires put on 2 days ago.. Tonight tryin to get wheels off to put the Simex's on, and some asshole at the tire joint must have sat there for 45 mins with a rattle gun on 1 nut.

I've tried a 5ft bar on the end of the wheel brace which now resembles licorice and it aint budged - not even creaked... I've tried tightening the ones next to it, and opposite it, and no chance.

bleepknows what I can do.

Real good if you were in middle of nowhere and had a flat.

So if ya get tires fitted by somebleepin 2yr old with a rattle gun, hand him the wheel brace and ask him to remove the nuts before you drive out thebleepin door.
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Reply By: Martyn (WA) - Friday, Jul 29, 2005 at 21:38

Friday, Jul 29, 2005 at 21:38
Truckman,
Do you have access to any means of heat? A blow torch of some description, try a bit of heat, not glowing just warm. Other than that cut your losses and drill down the axis of the nut and split it rather than damage the thread or snap the nut off. You could try a chisel mark on the flat of the nut to spread the nut if you know what I mean, you might not be able to get the angle to get a good swing though. failing that leav that tyre on and rely on the other three Simex's......
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Follow Up By: Truckster (Vic) - Friday, Jul 29, 2005 at 21:47

Friday, Jul 29, 2005 at 21:47
I have 4 boxes of matches.... thats it.

I even have thebleepin spare on the rack, which was also done up to 2903820398402398 kgs
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Follow Up By: Martyn (WA) - Friday, Jul 29, 2005 at 22:37

Friday, Jul 29, 2005 at 22:37
Right, that's a start...................
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Follow Up By: garrycol - Saturday, Jul 30, 2005 at 10:55

Saturday, Jul 30, 2005 at 10:55
Truckster - before you try Martyns extreme measures - why not take the car back to the place that put the tyres on and get them to remove - and pay if any damage is caused - I would suggest they use a wheel brace!!
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Reply By: Michael Carey - Friday, Jul 29, 2005 at 21:38

Friday, Jul 29, 2005 at 21:38
Is there a certain torque that wheel nuts should be done up to?
Surely these tyre stooge rattle guns aren't properlty calibrated.
AnswerID: 122794

Follow Up By: Truckster (Vic) - Friday, Jul 29, 2005 at 21:44

Friday, Jul 29, 2005 at 21:44
I think the torque setting is when the rim implodes and buckles, and all studs are snapped.
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Follow Up By: Martyn (WA) - Friday, Jul 29, 2005 at 21:57

Friday, Jul 29, 2005 at 21:57
Michael,
90 to 95 ft/lbs Alloy 135 ft/lbs steel (ish), on fire tonight........
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Follow Up By: Mad Dog (Australia) - Friday, Jul 29, 2005 at 22:51

Friday, Jul 29, 2005 at 22:51
Usually in the handbook, use a torque wrench and you'll be surprised by how little it is.
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Reply By: Member - Roachie (SA) - Friday, Jul 29, 2005 at 21:51

Friday, Jul 29, 2005 at 21:51
I know you wanna go 4 wheelin tomorrow....but I'd be going back to the dumdyck that put the pharkin on and get him to get the nuts off again.

I'd love to try my 12v Shentai rattle gun on it for you, but guess 1200klm or so is a bit too far for you to drive...:-)

Good luck mate

Roachie
AnswerID: 122795

Follow Up By: Truckster (Vic) - Friday, Jul 29, 2005 at 21:57

Friday, Jul 29, 2005 at 21:57
well the wheelbrace snapped now...

bleepwont thatbleepbe gettin the phonecall from hell tomrrow
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Follow Up By: BenSpoon - Monday, Aug 01, 2005 at 21:42

Monday, Aug 01, 2005 at 21:42
run that past me again?
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Reply By: GOB & denny vic member - Friday, Jul 29, 2005 at 22:10

Friday, Jul 29, 2005 at 22:10
goodday mate
bit late now just been halfway to your place and my mate has 1 of those rattle guns he reckons there sh??hot but i know what you mean about over tight not much i can do to help tonight but yell tomorrow if you need a hand

steve
AnswerID: 122800

Reply By: Outnabout David (SA) - Friday, Jul 29, 2005 at 22:29

Friday, Jul 29, 2005 at 22:29
You would think that every tyre place would have learnt by now. I had mine balanced the other day where I have never been before and forgot to tell them to hand tighten. Bugger me dead I came back and they were doing them by hand...thank god.
AnswerID: 122805

Follow Up By: Member - toohey - Saturday, Jul 30, 2005 at 07:01

Saturday, Jul 30, 2005 at 07:01
young fella with rattle gun could be a nissan 3.0lt owner who follows this forum.
regards toohey.
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FollowupID: 378000

Reply By: Truckster (Vic) - Friday, Jul 29, 2005 at 23:11

Friday, Jul 29, 2005 at 23:11
Problem solved by Crazie bringin over a compressor and scaring thebleepout of the nut..

now to try and find the swag and other chit for camping :( then try and get sleep....
AnswerID: 122812

Reply By: Shaker - Friday, Jul 29, 2005 at 23:14

Friday, Jul 29, 2005 at 23:14
I don't know what vehicle you have, but be aware that by the very fact that you can't move them, there is a more than even chance that your wheel studs have been damaged, there is a factory torque setting for wheel nuts for a reason!
Many Rodeo studs have been stretched & ruined by brain dead tyre fitters.
You will not know if your studs are damaged until they break for no apparent reason.
Any decent tyre service will rattle the nuts on, then finish by hand with a cross brace.
I was nearly stuck at Crooked River with over tightened nuts on 2 flat tyres, took forever to loosen them.

In future, when I pick up my vehicle from a tyre service I will ask for a hand brace & check them before I pay!
AnswerID: 122814

Reply By: Member - Andy C (WA) - Friday, Jul 29, 2005 at 23:27

Friday, Jul 29, 2005 at 23:27
Just had the Navara serviced at Nissan and made them include on the service "re-tighten all wheel nuts by torque wrench to spec".

Will check if they are get offable before I head off on the CSR!

Andy
AnswerID: 122818

Reply By: Member - Brad G (SA) - Friday, Jul 29, 2005 at 23:27

Friday, Jul 29, 2005 at 23:27
Seriously mate I would take the vehicle back and ask them to undo them by hand. When they can't inform them that you will be replacing all the studs and nuts (which I would do for your own safety) and ask them for there billing address. I wish you every success.
Cheers Brad
AnswerID: 122819

Reply By: Exploder - Saturday, Jul 30, 2005 at 00:09

Saturday, Jul 30, 2005 at 00:09
I would say the clown just kept rattling for too long and was lucky he did not strip the thread.

If your 5Ft breaker bar did not budge them there were on Fing tight.

Whenever I get the tyres rotated I always watch them do it and it then gives me a chance to check the Brake Pads, inspect CV Boot’s Shock’s ECT wail the tyres are off. They do not seem to mind.
AnswerID: 122821

Follow Up By: Member - toohey - Saturday, Jul 30, 2005 at 07:32

Saturday, Jul 30, 2005 at 07:32
gid'ay truckster
just jokeing on previous follow up,when i get tyres changed on 4by'i allways tighten em' my self,some times rattle gun setting is not changed from truck setting ,with my truck they use rattle gun,then i check em'
with brace &bar 9 outa' 10 their loose.
regards toohey
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FollowupID: 378001

Reply By: Member Eric - Saturday, Jul 30, 2005 at 07:55

Saturday, Jul 30, 2005 at 07:55
I have a big ass rattle gun here if you need it
AnswerID: 122829

Reply By: Bonz (Vic) - Saturday, Jul 30, 2005 at 08:40

Saturday, Jul 30, 2005 at 08:40
did you try turning the nut anticlockwise?
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Follow Up By: Wazza - (Vic) - Saturday, Jul 30, 2005 at 17:02

Saturday, Jul 30, 2005 at 17:02
hehe
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FollowupID: 378038

Follow Up By: Truckster (Vic) - Monday, Aug 01, 2005 at 10:28

Monday, Aug 01, 2005 at 10:28
I even tried tightening it to see if that would do anything... :(
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FollowupID: 378202

Reply By: Member - RockyOne - Saturday, Jul 30, 2005 at 10:25

Saturday, Jul 30, 2005 at 10:25
Part of the problem is lubrication..Dinkum!..Sure,it's overtightened,but the two mating surfaces have had enough,the two metals have now "mated" and become one..No amount of exerted torque will seperate them..I had this happen after getting new Dunlop Gran Treks (magic rubber) fitted for a Hi-Country adventure..Had to twist off nut/stud,remove brake drum,fit new stud..Fairly ezy job.That we should'nt have to do..Now I always carry 2 spare studs and keep the studs lubed with water resistant ,motorcycle chain lubricant..Tyre expert told me dry surfaces will bind..I always hand wrench after getting rubber fitted..Now! Helps..RockyOne!MPG:4!
AnswerID: 122847

Reply By: crewser - Saturday, Jul 30, 2005 at 10:51

Saturday, Jul 30, 2005 at 10:51
Your lucky I had new tyres fitted only to have the front left wheel try to come off 3 weeks later. checked all wheel nuts and they were all lose. try stoping 3.6 ton of landcruiser & camper at 110 km/h with front wheel hanging on by one bolt.
AnswerID: 122852

Reply By: Member - Hugh (WA) - Saturday, Jul 30, 2005 at 15:19

Saturday, Jul 30, 2005 at 15:19
Hi Truckster,

I feel for you mate. I had this happen to me on the Patrol about 6 months ago, and when I didn't need it too - flat tyre (fortunately was at home so could get a breaker bar to help). My tyre bloke is normally great so you can imagine my surprise, and the expletives were flowing thick and fast.

Took it back to the tyre place and Richard (owner) didn't believe me - they always use torque wrench. So I got out the wheel brace and gave it to him to try on the other 3 remaining wheels. Sure enough couldn't budge them. Embarrassed he went and got the dimwit that did the job, gave him the wheel brace and made him loosen the nuts by hand. He couldn't - lesson learnt! The dimwit subsequently got the sack - turns out this was last in a string of similar problems.

Hugh
AnswerID: 122870

Reply By: at4x4 - Saturday, Jul 30, 2005 at 17:09

Saturday, Jul 30, 2005 at 17:09
But hey,
if truckster bought tyres from them, they were the cheapest shop in town Im sure....

Cheapest for a reason it would seem, by not employing people who have the right skills etc.......
AnswerID: 122892

Follow Up By: Truckster (Vic) - Monday, Aug 01, 2005 at 10:30

Monday, Aug 01, 2005 at 10:30
damn right they were cheapest prices in town! by over $40 a tire.
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FollowupID: 378203

Follow Up By: at4x4 - Monday, Aug 01, 2005 at 11:19

Monday, Aug 01, 2005 at 11:19
I guess it shows......

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FollowupID: 378207

Reply By: Boc1971 - Saturday, Jul 30, 2005 at 18:34

Saturday, Jul 30, 2005 at 18:34
Rattle guns should ONLY be used to remove bolts and nuts - NEVER used to tighten ESPECIALLY wheel nuts - studs will streatch if over tightened , thus increasing the chance of them snapping at some extreme pressure ( ie hard cornering and so forth )

Unfortunatly those rattle gun clowns at tyre places are usually high school drop outs that do not have a clue when it comes to torque settings. Im my trade we only ever use bolts that are in high risk area ONLY ONCE - ( fitter machinist )

Frank
AnswerID: 122908

Follow Up By: 120scruiser - Sunday, Jul 31, 2005 at 12:32

Sunday, Jul 31, 2005 at 12:32
There is simple device made of spring steel which connect to the rattle gun in the form of an extension bar. These torque bars are set at certain Nm of torque. You can also get wheel nut sockets with these torque features set into them.
All cars have different settings and some as low as 60Nm.
We use the bar set at 110Nm which is about 85ftlbs.
Never stipped a stud or overtightened a nut.
All decent tyre shops should have these.
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FollowupID: 378113

Reply By: Diamond (Vic) - Saturday, Jul 30, 2005 at 18:36

Saturday, Jul 30, 2005 at 18:36
mke sure you take your phone number with you tommorow.
when your way up in the middle of nowhere give them a call and say hay you silly pricks im up the top of mout where ever i got a puncture cant loosen theese wheel nuts now.
(a)send one of your blokes out here to fix it.
(b)Can i have a phone number of any company that you choose to come and recover me.
make sure you bring the busted wheel brace so if they do turn up tell them when they turn up you just changed it.
AnswerID: 122909

Follow Up By: Truckster (Vic) - Monday, Aug 01, 2005 at 10:51

Monday, Aug 01, 2005 at 10:51
Dang, I was going to call u... :(
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FollowupID: 378204

Reply By: Mike Harding - Saturday, Jul 30, 2005 at 20:40

Saturday, Jul 30, 2005 at 20:40
Had a similar problem a few years ago south of Broken Hill when I wanted to remove the wheels in order to remove the mud accumulated on one of the tracks in that area which had caused them to go out of balance - it's possible but difficult. But there seems little point in revealing techniques on this forum. Suggest you ask them not to tighten them too much.

Mike Harding
AnswerID: 122923

Follow Up By: D-Jack - Saturday, Jul 30, 2005 at 22:39

Saturday, Jul 30, 2005 at 22:39
Pointless post Mike. We've all had mud on our wheels. Its too late to ask them not to tighten them too much now. Thanks for an informative reply.3

D-Jack
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FollowupID: 378078

Reply By: angler - Saturday, Jul 30, 2005 at 20:55

Saturday, Jul 30, 2005 at 20:55
I had a similar problem when I did not have mobs of time available to watch over the imitation tyre techs. o wheels ended up over tightened by rattle gun and when I tried to get them off a couple of days later for a different set of tyres the same thing, couldn't move them. Took it back to the tyre place and asked for another check for balance. When the young fella reached for the rattle gun I stopped him and told him to use my vehicle supplied wheel brace. Needless to say he was having lots of trouble, The boss came out and yelled at him for not getting the tyres off.
I interuppted and asked the boss to get them off, with the same brace. Same thing, the boss then asked me who the hell put these wheels on, I pointed to the employee who did the job the first time. All hell broke loose and I managed to get replacement studs and nuts out of the company without too much trouoble.

You just have to keep watch, I will never ever leave again when new tyres are being fitted.
AnswerID: 122926

Reply By: Member - Phil G (SA) - Sunday, Jul 31, 2005 at 00:03

Sunday, Jul 31, 2005 at 00:03
Once you're sorted, a smear of grease on the stud threads usually means they don't bind up when overtightened.

Cheers
Phil
AnswerID: 122944

Follow Up By: Member - Davoe (Widgiemooltha) - Sunday, Jul 31, 2005 at 01:43

Sunday, Jul 31, 2005 at 01:43
Heard from a few places that for some reason grease is a no no often see that silver never sieze on studs when changing work tyres
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FollowupID: 378088

Follow Up By: at4x4 - Sunday, Jul 31, 2005 at 16:49

Sunday, Jul 31, 2005 at 16:49
Correct,
any lubrication on the threads is normally not recommended, though I do use a very very small amount of anti sieze on my own, when swapping wheels alot, but lube on the mating surfaces is more important than the thread itself.
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FollowupID: 378126

Reply By: Member - Jerry C (WA) - Sunday, Jul 31, 2005 at 01:03

Sunday, Jul 31, 2005 at 01:03
Hi Truckster,
I don't know what type of vehicle you have , but the "80" service book says 108ft lbs. Not much help to you, but I know of at least 2 places in Perth that only use hand power to replace the nuts.

Cheers

Jerry
AnswerID: 122946

Reply By: Uppy - Member - Sunday, Jul 31, 2005 at 11:20

Sunday, Jul 31, 2005 at 11:20
Hi Truckster,I hope you get them off,Ive just got a set of cooper sts put on my Patrol,go out now to see if I can loosen them .Thanks for the warning
regards uppy
AnswerID: 122987

Reply By: Member - Crazie (VIC) - Sunday, Jul 31, 2005 at 21:41

Sunday, Jul 31, 2005 at 21:41
i am available for undoing wheel nuts for a small call out fee.....
AnswerID: 123072

Follow Up By: Truckster (Vic) - Monday, Aug 01, 2005 at 10:27

Monday, Aug 01, 2005 at 10:27
hey you never mentioned a callout fee...

You owe me a recovery though...
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FollowupID: 378201

Reply By: mazbravo - Sunday, Jul 31, 2005 at 22:19

Sunday, Jul 31, 2005 at 22:19
HI, well i had a smilar problem when having new tyres fitted but it was them who could not undo the whell nuts. what they did was to have a 5ft bar on the wheel brace one guy keeping the presure on while someone else taped the other end of wheelbrace with a hammer and bingo it worked, good luck.
AnswerID: 123076

Reply By: cmilton54 - Monday, Aug 01, 2005 at 20:14

Monday, Aug 01, 2005 at 20:14
Wheel studs SHOULD HAVE NO LUBE ON nuts are dry torque only. early patrols 80ft lb later 100ft lb Toyota up to 100lc 80 ft lb 100lc on see hand book depends on model and type of wheel. mitsubishi 100ft lb, Holden 80 ft lb Ford 80ft lb landrover is about 95ft lb. all dry torque only. NO grease, oil, neverseze ect.
Always done by manual hand torque in my tyre store.
Cheers
Charlie
AnswerID: 123212

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