National Parks and campertrailers

Submitted: Tuesday, Dec 10, 2002 at 01:00
ThreadID: 2567 Views:1546 Replies:13 FollowUps:32
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Why are the spaces available for campertrailers at National Parks either too small or just not enough? With the sheer number of campertrailers out there, espcially up north, you would think that Parks would shift there ubiquitous treated pine posts a bit to make some bigger spaces.Some Parks we have visited have not even had enough room to put the vehicle on the site. Some feedback to National Parks may be required! What do other people feel?
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Reply By: OziExplorer - Tuesday, Dec 10, 2002 at 01:00

Tuesday, Dec 10, 2002 at 01:00
Don't you get the message, they really don't want you there!!!
If it was up to the raving Greenies you would not even be allowed to drive in.

Personally, I don't disagree with you.
AnswerID: 9508

Follow Up By: Janset - Tuesday, Dec 10, 2002 at 01:00

Tuesday, Dec 10, 2002 at 01:00
Hey OziExplorer.

Get it right. NP camping areas has nothing to do with the "raving Greenies". They have very little if any input on camping sites or facilities.

The sites are determined by the authority administering the sites. Further, the rational behind the small size is, less campers, less the impact.

Where you and I may believe in the slogan, "take only photos and leave only your footprints", far too many people live with the belief that they have the god given right to do what they want and when they want and to hell with everyone else.

The next time you go to a camp site, (or even a roadside rest stop), large or small after a public holiday or holidays, take a look at all the disposable nappies left and toilet paper and other rubbish left lying around.


How long does a disposable nappy take to break down, 50 years?? help me out here someone as I can't remember the exact time frame.

Then look and other mess and damage the campers have done, take a look at all the vegetation that has been either chopped down of driven over or trodden down to make way for camp sites. It does not matter how big you make the camp site, it is never big enough.

We are our own worst enemy and I am sorry to say, we have brought it upon our selves. I don't like it any more than you but there you have it.

Regards



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Follow Up By: Fourwdau - Friday, Dec 13, 2002 at 01:00

Friday, Dec 13, 2002 at 01:00
i think thats a very narrow minded opinion you have there OziExplorer.....i thought that this was an imformed web site .....perhaps tho, not on this subject.

john
sunshine coast
qld
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Reply By: Old Soldier - Tuesday, Dec 10, 2002 at 01:00

Tuesday, Dec 10, 2002 at 01:00
Personally I avoid National Parks to stay in like the plague.

Nice places to visit during the day, but who the hell would want to stop in one.

too many bloody rules and regulations and we have enough of them in our daily lives anyway.

the only time I stop in a National Park is if there is no alternative available.

Good example of the choice is at Lawn Hill NP vs Adels Grove campsite.

Personally i would take Adels Grove anyday - and you can get your camper trailers in with bags of room to spare.

Others will possibly have different views but thats my two bobs worth

DennisN
AnswerID: 9509

Follow Up By: Truckster - Tuesday, Dec 10, 2002 at 01:00

Tuesday, Dec 10, 2002 at 01:00
Once again Old Soldier I agree with you.

Too many rules, etc... Cant do this, cant do that, dont go here, even though everything else can go there, bikes etc(I am not anti bike, rode for 20 yrs..).

But I think Ozi made a good point, THEY DONT WANT YOU THERE. If you are there they have to MAINTAIN THAT AREA... Which means spending $ which the Tight arse Gov WONT dish out...

Camper trailers blah... swags are the go anyway!
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Follow Up By: Old Soldier - Wednesday, Dec 11, 2002 at 01:00

Wednesday, Dec 11, 2002 at 01:00
Hey cut it out Truckster :) :) :) :)

"Camper Trailers Blah" :) :)

There was a time I would have been right in there agreeing with you mate, but after what seems like a lifetime of digging out "hip holes" and sleeping on bare ground sheets in the army, I think my poor old bones deserve a rest.

These days I like nothing more than to go quietly to my Queen size bed in the camper trailer after sinking a good dose of port round a pleasant [and well managed] campfire.

Apart from that mate we seem to be in agreement on everything else. :) :) :)

To hell with greenies and beaureaucrats !!!!

Most "bush wise" blokes that I know respect and care for this land far more than any whingeing bloody greenies or National Park Beaureaucrat.
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Follow Up By: Truckster - Wednesday, Dec 11, 2002 at 01:00

Wednesday, Dec 11, 2002 at 01:00
To hell with greenies and beaureaucrats !!!!

Most "bush wise" blokes that I know respect and care for this land far more than any whingeing bloody greenies or National Park Beaureaucrat.


Couldnt agree more!

People who use the bush more than once or twice a yr look after it better than all the flammin GREENIES or scum Beaureaucrats on earth would ever think of.

Take care.

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Reply By: David - Tuesday, Dec 10, 2002 at 01:00

Tuesday, Dec 10, 2002 at 01:00
I agree. I have a large Trak-Shak Camper which the tent part slides off the back rather than the side. I need about 30 feet to fit the camper in (from towbar to the back tent peg). It is not only national parks. Even caravan park sites are getting small. The more popular the place the maller the site. i.E THE GOLD COAST sites only big enough for a small van or tent. The great ocean road also has small sites in caravan parks and NP's. I have had a lot of good stays in NP's and they are certainly cheaper and contrary to someone else's reply there are less rules. I have 6 kids and have stayed in NP's where they can run around till they get sick of it and I have stopped in parks where kids can't through a tennis ball to one another.
One tip for caravan parks is to ask for a mobile home site as these are usually larger to accomodate buses.
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Reply By: Jan - Tuesday, Dec 10, 2002 at 01:00

Tuesday, Dec 10, 2002 at 01:00
Dock, whilst I sympathise with you I think you should remember that National Parks are underfunded and under resourced and such passive attempts to discourage people are just another survival technique. I live in NSW and have been an active bushwalker and climber for many years (yes, I'm one of those weirdos who actually prefers to walk than use my 4WD) and I find it really depressing to see many popular NPs being loved to death because the infrastructure just isn't there to support the ever increasing crowds and number of vehicles - Newnes in the Wollemi NP is a good example. I don't think whinging to NP will do anything, your letter will just be added to the already large pile of complaints. A more constructive thing to do would be get involved in your state's National Parks Association and support them to get more money from the Govt. to make NPs more user friendly and sustainable. I can't believe the tourism industry isn't more active in lobbying the government to take better care of NPs - they are an asset, not a liability. I'm probably about to start a riot but I really think that there are certain NPs where vehicles of any description have no right to be.
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Follow Up By: Robert - Thursday, Dec 12, 2002 at 01:00

Thursday, Dec 12, 2002 at 01:00
If the government provided more camping spots especially in state forests then perhaps the pressure would be taken of these areas that are in limited numbers. Lets face it, there's now more people than ever before but has there been any increase in the number of camping area's?
As to the rubbish issue, unfortunately day-trippers often leave a lot of this rubbish not just campers. And most of the damage done by selfish campers occurs in the large open area type camp grounds. If they authorities put in more single spot camping areas then perhaps the yoobo element (who always seem to camp in numbers) would keep away.These places should be for everyone to enjoy (within reason), and not just for the select few such as bush walkers. After all it does cost money to provide for the needs of bush walkers and where does this money come from - taxes that everyone is paying.
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Reply By: Mick - Tuesday, Dec 10, 2002 at 01:00

Tuesday, Dec 10, 2002 at 01:00
I think the message is simply - don't tow trailers into National Parks or any other off road destinations. They really are fine on sealed roads but it's irresponsible to take them elsewhere both from the damage they cause and the inconvenience to others when they become stuck.
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Follow Up By: Old Soldier - Wednesday, Dec 11, 2002 at 01:00

Wednesday, Dec 11, 2002 at 01:00
What absolute rot !!!
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Follow Up By: Robert - Thursday, Dec 12, 2002 at 01:00

Thursday, Dec 12, 2002 at 01:00
I agree with you old soldier, what an absolute load of complete rubbish!
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Reply By: ExplorOz Team - Michelle - Tuesday, Dec 10, 2002 at 01:00

Tuesday, Dec 10, 2002 at 01:00
Dock, we hear you loud and clear but its not just the NPs that have tight spaces, its also the caravan parks and its not fair is it! We found this problem all over Australia, in every single state. You probably know, we spent 2 years, non stop travelling (never once in a bed) and with a trailer, but that was a storage trailer not a camper, but much the same problem. The only solution is to disconnect trailer and take up two spots and even to lie on the ground some nights (on a thermarest or similar).

We have thought about settting up a new area on the site for "complaints to the authorities" but think the forum serves the same purpose. Be sure that your complaint here will be read by people in the know. So, everyone, continue to make your point be heard. I'm really hearing how powerful this forum is - as Con the Fruiterer says, "complain loudly!"
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Reply By: Member - Melissa - Tuesday, Dec 10, 2002 at 01:00

Tuesday, Dec 10, 2002 at 01:00
Well, there have certainly been a variety of opinions expressed over this topic but leaving personal opinions aside, the fact is that NP's have shown a trend towards individual campsites rather than a big open space. The good thing about this is lower impact and increased privacy. The bad thing is that it does not cater for a large percentage of the camping population.

Unfortunately, most of these sites seem to be very small and would not accomodate anything more than a small tent. That leaves us campertrailer, coaster bus and family tent owners out in the cold...not to mention caravan owners. Quite often the problem is not that the overall site it too small, simply that NP's insist on putting bollards across the middle of the site. If they gave it some thought, they could still use bollards to good effect (ie. to stop campers extending the boundaries of the site) by placing them around the boundaries of the site without disadvantaging particular groups of campers.

My last comment relates to those who feel that towing anything into a NP is detrimental to the environment. Have a look around...campertrailers and caravans are experiencing unprecedented popularity and yes, they are here to stay. NP's belong to the people of Australia; all Australians regardless of how they choose to travel. We all pay the same fees for park access and camping and we have equal right to visit our NP's as long as we respect them. All we are asking is that NP authorities realise that those people who camp in small tents are probably in the minority, so please give some more thought to how you plan the campgrounds.

:-) Melissa
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Follow Up By: Old Soldier - Wednesday, Dec 11, 2002 at 01:00

Wednesday, Dec 11, 2002 at 01:00
Well said Melissa - especially the last paragraph.

I for one regard myself as a responsible 4WD and off road trailer owner.

The problem is not in the equipment, but in the lack of experience of some of these people who venture into our beautiful bush.

Better driver training and education is the answer - not banning, or making it hard for people to get their equipment into the parks.

Irresponsible 4 wheel driving is not what you drive or tow - but how you do it.

Irresponsible off roading is charging through creeks just so you can get your silly childish kicks from how much water you can spray up - or how dirty you can get your little toy in order to photograph it and show off to your equally childish mates.

Irresonsible off roading is deliberately going off a track onto virgin ground just so you can "test your skills" by ploughing through a mud patch that didn't need to be driven through in the first place.

Get rid of this through correct driver training and attitude, and maybe we can shut the greenies up once and for all.

As you so rightly say, these parks belong to ALL the people of Australia - not a select few who think that just because they bushwalk everywhere they own them.

I for one suffer from disabilities that preclude me from serious heavy bushwalking - does that mean I no longer have a right to experience the wonders this country has to offer? I think not.

Good onya Melissa

DennisN
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Follow Up By: Flappan - Wednesday, Dec 11, 2002 at 01:00

Wednesday, Dec 11, 2002 at 01:00
"Irresponsible off roading is charging through creeks just so you can get your silly childish kicks from how much water you can spray up - or how dirty you can get your little toy in order to photograph it and show off to your equally childish mates.

Irresonsible off roading is deliberately going off a track onto virgin ground just so you can "test your skills" by ploughing through a mud patch that didn't need to be driven through in the first place. "


This being directed somewhere in particular Old Soldier
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Follow Up By: Truckster - Wednesday, Dec 11, 2002 at 01:00

Wednesday, Dec 11, 2002 at 01:00
I for one suffer from disabilities that preclude me from serious heavy bushwalking - does that mean I no longer have a right to experience the wonders this country has to offer? I think not.

Im the same. My car actually has modified controls, I drive with my left foot.. Accelerator is on the left of the brake... Bush walking for me is a thing of the past.

Heres a few pics of why... Injury Pictures

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Follow Up By: Flappan - Wednesday, Dec 11, 2002 at 01:00

Wednesday, Dec 11, 2002 at 01:00
Truckster, just had a look at your photos.

Sorry mate, you can keep em, looks far to painfull.

Like your sense of humor though ;)
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Follow Up By: Axel + Karen - Wednesday, Dec 11, 2002 at 01:00

Wednesday, Dec 11, 2002 at 01:00
Truckster , just looked at the photos ,nasty, now we know how come you have / had so much time to play on the forum,,,
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Follow Up By: Truckster - Wednesday, Dec 11, 2002 at 01:00

Wednesday, Dec 11, 2002 at 01:00
yea, Id rather not have the time to play...

That was over 3 yrs ago, and just had the 28th operation. Maybe the last one...

Ive been asking for rehab person to get me back to work, seems to have worked, they are coming out Monday.. Hopefully I can start some retraining!

Either back into PC support/network admin, or learn how to be a Cisco God Here I come.... Want the $!
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Reply By: damien - Wednesday, Dec 11, 2002 at 01:00

Wednesday, Dec 11, 2002 at 01:00
Old Soldier, i also would like to know who this is directed at.

Anyone in particular???
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Follow Up By: Truckster - Wednesday, Dec 11, 2002 at 01:00

Wednesday, Dec 11, 2002 at 01:00
I'd probably say most young people that you see on Sunday coming back from Toolangi with their hilux coated 4in of mud on the bonnet up to the roof of their car that have spend most of their time trying to cover their car the most in crap..

Greenies love to photo that sort of bleep te to show how much damage 4wd's do, and with all the bad publicity happening with 4wds at the moment, I cant understand why they havent jumped on the band wagon with this one!

Remember its not everyone that does it, but its a lot... Same as the ones you see going to the paddocks in Seaford there.
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Follow Up By: Old Soldier - Wednesday, Dec 11, 2002 at 01:00

Wednesday, Dec 11, 2002 at 01:00
G’day,

Hmmmm!!! Have I ruffled some feathers here?

Before I answer the question, let me quote from the Australian Government Alpine website, under the section: “Leave No Trace”.

This site is accessed at: http://www.australianalps.ea.gov.au/codes/carcode.html

“Drive on the track. Drive your vehicle only on roads that are open to the public and avoid using muddy tracks where you are likely to leave wheel ruts that cause greater soil erosion. It is irresponsible and illegal to drive off formed roads and tracks.”

The last sentence is of particular interest.

It is IRRESPONSIBLE and ILLEGAL to drive OFF formed roads and tracks.

Not my words, a direct quote from the Alpine Environmental protection agency.

Of course, the ILLEGAL bit only applies within National Parks, but any unnecessary driving off formed roads and tracks on other land [even private property] is by that definition Irresponsible.

It is one thing to navigate thick mud in the course of a valid journey, and most of us have done it at one time or another. Iit is an entirely different thing to go ploughing up mud just for the hell of it.

The long-term erosion this causes is immense.

The same applies to using unnecessary speed when fording creeks. The creek bank erosion this causes may not seem much in isolation, but it all adds to the big picture of erosion. Something we do not need in this, the driest of dry continents.

Whilst I am on record on this forum as not being a lover of government bureaucracy or over zealous greenies, I also cannot stand ill educated people who come out into the bush and treat it like some sort of personal sandpit.

So, I guess you might say my comments are directed at the sort of irresponsible people who do what I have described.

Anybody on this forum want to put their hand up for that???



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Follow Up By: Flappan - Wednesday, Dec 11, 2002 at 01:00

Wednesday, Dec 11, 2002 at 01:00
By quoting the Alpine Rules I assume you are referring to a particular group of people. Which would they be ???

Thanks Old Soldier, you have made your views quite plain.

I thank you for expressing your views and of course quoting those rules for me.

Of course, if someone didn't have all their facts correct and was viewing this "vandalism" from a distance, that may be difficult to agree with.
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Follow Up By: Damien - Wednesday, Dec 11, 2002 at 01:00

Wednesday, Dec 11, 2002 at 01:00
Old Soldier, i believe you are posting this on the wrong forum!

It appears you are having a shot at people behind their backs - something i abhore.

Criticising people directly is fine, if you've got the proof to back it up. Doing it in an underhanded way is gutless.
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Follow Up By: Murraysposes - Wednesday, Dec 11, 2002 at 01:00

Wednesday, Dec 11, 2002 at 01:00
Hi OldSoldier

I notice you're worried about creek fording.
I'm wondering, how much 'less' erosion do you reckon will be caused by fording a creek slower?

My thoughts are:
fording creek=erosion
solution=build bridge
fording creek faster=[slightly more erosion?]
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Follow Up By: Truckster - Wednesday, Dec 11, 2002 at 01:00

Wednesday, Dec 11, 2002 at 01:00
I think you all got it wrong.

I dont think hes aiming it at anyone here..

Just an opinion, and if your offended by it, you are probably one of the irresponsible pricks out there bleep ing it up for the rest of us.
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Follow Up By: Robert - Thursday, Dec 12, 2002 at 01:00

Thursday, Dec 12, 2002 at 01:00
Well said Old Soldier, I couldn't agree more. Perhaps those with the ruffled feathers are the guilty ones!
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Reply By: Emjay - Wednesday, Dec 11, 2002 at 01:00

Wednesday, Dec 11, 2002 at 01:00
Why does anyone have a problem with what Old Soldier has said? What's wrong with responsible 4wding? Nothing he says bothers me, in fact I couldn't agree more. There are plenty of hairy-chested 4wd websites where moronic members proudly display pics of exactly what Old Soldier describes. Imagine some of those places after another thousand or so hoons crash through them in the same manner - they won't be worth visiting (IF we're still permitted access!).
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Follow Up By: Damien - Wednesday, Dec 11, 2002 at 01:00

Wednesday, Dec 11, 2002 at 01:00
Emjay, can you tell me what these web sites are so i can look for myself.
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Reply By: Emjay - Wednesday, Dec 11, 2002 at 01:00

Wednesday, Dec 11, 2002 at 01:00
Damian,
Overlander's site is a good place to start (http://forums.overlander.com.au).
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Follow Up By: Damien - Wednesday, Dec 11, 2002 at 01:00

Wednesday, Dec 11, 2002 at 01:00
Emjay, i'm curious why you describe Overlander as "hairy chested"

Also, can you tell me of some specific threads at Overlander where i can see this information for myself.

Not having visited this site, i'm not sure of my way around - you know how it is!
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Follow Up By: Truckster - Wednesday, Dec 11, 2002 at 01:00

Wednesday, Dec 11, 2002 at 01:00
Damien

here try www.outerlimits4x4.com www.pirate4x4.com and www.snakeracing.com.au

All full of wannabees... If you need more, I can get you more.
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Reply By: Old Soldier - Wednesday, Dec 11, 2002 at 01:00

Wednesday, Dec 11, 2002 at 01:00
G’day again,

Firstly I would like to apologise to the members of this forum that some of my comments seem to have made this thread go awry.

However I stand firmly by my beliefs on responsible off-roading.

To Damien. Yes, my comments were inspired by a series of threads on another forum, but no, I was not taking a shot at them as you imply. I was merely using what I had seen there as an example of what I personally consider irresponsible off roading. It is not in my nature to conduct personal vendettas against individuals - either to their face, or "behind their back" as you infer.

You will note that I said what “I consider to be irresponsible”. My views may be totally wrong, but they are my views, and I have a right to express them in an open forum such as this.

I could have used other examples, I have seen plenty of them in my time. It’s just that these were fresh in my mind.

The comments I made that you picked up on were simply part of an overall post, and should have been read in context with the whole post. I did not mention the other forum’s website – nor did I mention anybody’s name. I don’t understand your problem I’m afraid.

No Damian I am not gutless, and even with me being almost on the wrong side of 60, it would take a better man than you to say that to my face.

I simply chose not to discuss my views on this other forum, as I had decided to leave there because of the amount of spurious and rubbish posts submitted by some of it’s “senior” [I use the term loosely] members.

I could not see the point in making comment there because the last few people who have left this particular forum after making [what I believed to be reasonable] comments about something which dissatisfied them, were subjected to much sarcastic derision by some of the self appointed 4WD legends who reside there.

Once again I apologise to the members of this forum if my post have upset you. However, I do not apologise for my beliefs on responsible four wheel driving.

Dennis

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Follow Up By: Truckster - Wednesday, Dec 11, 2002 at 01:00

Wednesday, Dec 11, 2002 at 01:00
LMAO.

I dont think you have anything to apologise for! LMAO......
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Follow Up By: Robert - Thursday, Dec 12, 2002 at 01:00

Thursday, Dec 12, 2002 at 01:00
Old Solider you don't have anything to apologise for. Your correct in what you say.

Have a look at most 4x4 web sites and what do you see, pictures of people driving through mud holes just for the hell of it.These people can say what they like, it's this delberate driving through mud holes that makes them much worse, and the reason the government wants to close tracks.

Those who are driving deliberately through mud holes and driving through creek crossing's at unnecessary speeds etc are the ones giving all 4x4 owners a bad name.



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Follow Up By: Damien - Friday, Dec 13, 2002 at 01:00

Friday, Dec 13, 2002 at 01:00
Some people just don't get it.

Robert, without knowing all the facts of a particular incident, or without actually being there, how can you make a judgement about what went on & the circumstances around it.

Just another one jumping on the bandwagon, another one with no idea!!
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Follow Up By: Robert - Monday, Dec 16, 2002 at 01:00

Monday, Dec 16, 2002 at 01:00
Yes Damien, some people just don't get it.

My comments were made in relation to the type of behaviour we see displayed on most 4wd-web sites. I was not making direct or specific comment on the report that I think your referring to nor did I get the impression that Old Soldier was either.
The fact is that I agree with Old Soldier's comments, as I too think that deliberately driving through mud or charging across creeks at unnecessarily speed etc is irresponsible. That's not jumping on the bandwagon, that's stating an opinion.

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Follow Up By: Damien - Monday, Dec 16, 2002 at 01:00

Monday, Dec 16, 2002 at 01:00
It is very clear what & who Old Soldier was directing his comments at. I take offence that he would single out an individual event when he really has absolutely no idea what went on except for what he read on the forum.
You know why he hasn't got any idea.............HE WASN'T THERE!!!!

Makes it pretty hard to make a judgement i would say.
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Follow Up By: Robert - Tuesday, Dec 17, 2002 at 01:00

Tuesday, Dec 17, 2002 at 01:00
Damien,

Perhaps your anger should be directed at those who wrote that report. By the sound of things Old Soldier has only commented on what he has read.
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Follow Up By: Damien - Tuesday, Dec 17, 2002 at 01:00

Tuesday, Dec 17, 2002 at 01:00
Robert, that is exactly right, but he has absolutely no idea whether that report is accurate or not.
As stated previously, there was naturally some "poetic licence" taken in the writing of that report - You know, maybe exagerate a little, spice things up to make things sound more interesting.
I've said it before & i'll say it again - based on what has been written, it is impossible to prove that inappropriate behaviour took place - i know it certainly did not.
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Reply By: damien - Wednesday, Dec 11, 2002 at 01:00

Wednesday, Dec 11, 2002 at 01:00
Ok, obviously this has got a little out of hand.
Naturally, everyone has a right to their own opinion & an equal right to express that opinion - no problem there.

Truckster, i think your comments to Murraysposers were a little harsh - he was simply expressing an opinion!

Old Soldier, i certainly did not mean to offend, but your comments, i thought, were a little strange, not so much in their content, but in their timing.
You had ample opportunity to express your views on the issue some 5 weeks ago, when details of the trip you are talking about took place - yet you decided to remain silent - why is that?

I certainly disagree with the comments you made. How anyone can make a judgement on exactly what went on, without actually being there is beyond me. From the reports that you have read & the pictures displayed, there is no evidence to suggest that inappropriate 4wding took place.
Why is driving through a mud hole so bad? are you basing your opinion on the photos or the written explanation - do you not think a littel "poetic licence" may have been used, a little exageration possibly. How do you know if it was "virgin ground" or not?
I think the example you have used was a mud hole that was not in a National Park, but in a logging area - hardly virgin ground now is it!
You say the soil erosion would be immense, i hardly think, looking at the photos, that erosion on that dead flat piece of land would be a major problem.

Driving through a creek - how fast is too fast? 10Kmh, 20, 30? Everyone will have a different interpretation of this.
Just because pictures have been taken of dirty vehicles, why is that childish? Have you stopped to think that the tracks may have been extraordinarily dusty & photos were taken to show just how dusty it was - what is wrong with that? A group of vehicles travelling at 10Kmh in convoy will get just as dusty as vehicles travelling at 60Kmh.

The group of people on this trip, did they throw beer cans out the window, did they leave toilet paper in the bush, did they leave rubbish at the campsite - i think not.
Don't you think that the above is far worse than driving through a creek, in your opinion, a little too fast? Don't you think a couple of dirty nappies will cause more harm to the environment than a dozen vehicles driving through a creek, or 3 vehicles driving through a mud hole?

BTW, it appears the people on the forum you are referring to have a lot of fun. It appears that when questions are asked, serious answers will be given.
There is also plenty of banter, plenty of jokes & plenty of laughter - what's wrong with that? Does a forum have to be serious all the time?
I think if you've got a sense of humor, most of it is quite amusing.
I think the "senior members" as you put it (i can only assume you classify these by the number of posts) are pretty good blokes who seem fairly smart & knowledgeable & don't mind having a fun time, by occasionally taking the piss out of each other, but at the same time helping out wherever possible - no crime there i wouldn't think.

Look, at the end of the day, you've got your opinion, i've got mine & they happen to differ. Without first hand knowledge & the actual facts as they happened, it's a little hard to take your opinion seriouly.






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Follow Up By: Damien - Wednesday, Dec 11, 2002 at 01:00

Wednesday, Dec 11, 2002 at 01:00
Truckster, i just re-read your post & it appears you may have been directing your comments to myself & flappan as well.

I don't think there is any need for that kind of persoanl abuse & i am not going to get into a slanging match with you.

His comments, by virtue of the example he used, is directed squarely at a particular group of people.

Unless you know the facts & have got something sensible to say - please don't waste my time.

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Reply By: Beddo - Thursday, Dec 12, 2002 at 01:00

Thursday, Dec 12, 2002 at 01:00
You will find more parks are making camper trailer areas. If not talk to the local advisory committee (NSW) - contact local NPWS for details. Bollards are to stop the idiots doing donuts. Tracks being gated (tracks required for weed or fire management use will be mainatained) is to stop rubbish dumping, car dumping, bush rock collection and also limited funding means that constant use of all tracks will be costly - all tracks are maintained yearly though the tracks used mostly will be kept open and majority of funds can be put to maintaining these. If all tracks were open then all would get a little bit of maintenance and the result would be a lot of rough tracks - 2WD's would complain. There are the odd few who visit NP's during the rain or near after and go thru the bog hole for the challenge - just adds to the maintenance costs.
Came back from Cape York - heaps of loo paper - dig the hole and burn it (not during High Fire Danger Period - I have put out enough fires of late) Why ? the pigs dig up the loo paper and rubbish people have buried.
AnswerID: 9625

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