P Platers What goes wrong

Submitted: Wednesday, Jan 11, 2006 at 19:23
ThreadID: 29580 Views:2169 Replies:22 FollowUps:22
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Hi all
What goes wrong with these P Platers after they get their license?.
It seems everything their taught goes out the window when they get behind that wheel on their own. How many times does one pass you somewhere and you think bleep that was close ,could have killed him or her self, and me as well.
Harsher penalities needed to slow some of them down.
1o ks over license gone 2yrs
drive without license jail???
Big big fines paid by offender not daddy.
Something needs to be done
Cheers Axle
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Reply By: Exploder - Wednesday, Jan 11, 2006 at 19:48

Wednesday, Jan 11, 2006 at 19:48
I think you are just dribbling after a bad day on the road.

10k’s over License gone for 2 years get real.
The legal system is struggling enough as it is without needing to deal with stupid rules like that.

It’s well Known soon as you get in a car by-yourself you will pick up your own stile, believe it or not if most of the population resat there licence they would fail. I sure know I would, when sat my truck license 4years after I got my Car license it amazed me at how much you forget. 10to 2 on the steering wheel I can’t remember the last time I held it like that 70% of the time I have 0ne hand on the wheel.

Question how did you drive when you first got your licence? Much the same I would think, everyone has done it a little and you grow out of it, part of being young and it’s how you learn, some people are morons on the road and don’t learn and that a shame.

Fines and pentiles aren’t the answer, teaching how to drive and handle are car in a Varity of conditions is, Including at hight speed is.

AnswerID: 147856

Follow Up By: gramps - Thursday, Jan 12, 2006 at 12:57

Thursday, Jan 12, 2006 at 12:57
"70% of the time I have 0ne hand on the wheel"

That saddens me Exploder. I don't think it is anything to be proud of.

The increasing toll of P-platers is such a waste of young lives. I agree with you that there should be emphasis on how to handle a vehicle under differing conditions. Unfortunately the current process is only to teach the bare basics and then you're virtually on your own unless you have the $$s to spend on what are called 'advanced' driving lessons.

In regards to increasing fines and suspensions etc, only if it is going to be enforced consistently and not bypassed because someone's spoilt little brat has a daddy with some influence. I have enough examples of that around here.

Unfortunately a lot of young drivers think they are indestructible and their supposed better reflexes will get them out of trouble. Only a total fool believes that.
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Reply By: Member - Reiner G (QLD) - Wednesday, Jan 11, 2006 at 19:49

Wednesday, Jan 11, 2006 at 19:49
I just don't believe that tuffer fines make any difference. 10ks over loose your license??? how many of us be in trouble???

Reiner
AnswerID: 147858

Follow Up By: Exploder - Wednesday, Jan 11, 2006 at 19:52

Wednesday, Jan 11, 2006 at 19:52
Australia would be one big Jail. How about big fines for going to slow how many accidents does this cause because some dick is doing 15,20or30k’s under the limit.
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Follow Up By: Shaker - Wednesday, Jan 11, 2006 at 20:03

Wednesday, Jan 11, 2006 at 20:03
How about even greater fines for the bigger dick behind that is too impatient to wait for the overtaking lanes?
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Follow Up By: Dave(NSW) - Wednesday, Jan 11, 2006 at 20:06

Wednesday, Jan 11, 2006 at 20:06
the fines seem to go up every year& so dose the road toll.Proves raising fines dosn't help. May-be better driver education might!
Dave
GU RULES!!

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Follow Up By: Mike Harding - Wednesday, Jan 11, 2006 at 20:28

Wednesday, Jan 11, 2006 at 20:28
>How about big fines for going to slow how many accidents
>does this cause because some dick is doing 15,20or30k’s
>under the limit.

It should not cause any. But it may do.

However it's not the problem - the problem is that speed limits in most Australian states are far too rigidly enforced thereby encouraging (forcing?) most drivers to travel _at_ the speed limit most of the time. Many times both drivers and conditions are not conducive to doing so. It creates terrible bunching and tailgating on roads. It means I am regularly overtaken by a vehicle doing 1km more than me on a dual carriageway and that means he's travelling about 1m away from me at 110kph for a _long_ time and that is not safe.

Most drivers don't need any more than guidance from speed limits – indeed, by their nature, speed limits are arbitrary and often inappropriate – in both directions – and, it is argued, encourage people to travel beyond their capabilities. (I believe studies from the USA confirm this argument). The majority of drivers understand what speeds are safe in which conditions and those who fail to will generally ignore speed limits anyway. Far better to have a practical tolerance of (say) 10 or 15 Ks on speed limits and thus encourage drivers to travel at a speed they feel safe at rather than them "having" to keep up with other traffic.

The last time I travelled the Jamieson to Woods Point road (mainly a gravel road, in Victoria) it had a speed limit of 100kph for most of it's length – you would need to be suicidal to travel at 100kph on most of that road.

Still: quoting simply slogans such as "Speed Kills" enables government and gullible members of the public to pass the responsibility of obtaining greater skill levels in the operation of a motor vehicle on to some nebulous area which can always be blamed without attention being paid to the real issue; ie. training. But that takes effort from both driver and government and costs money.

Mike Harding

mike_harding@fastmail.fm

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Reply By: Jarse - Wednesday, Jan 11, 2006 at 20:04

Wednesday, Jan 11, 2006 at 20:04
Axle, the P-platers you describe were probably taught by their parents, and consequently picked up their bad driving habits.

Rather than blame the individual, let's look at a system that is relaltively unchanged and deficient (in the 28 years I've been driving at least):

1. All drivers should be taught under an accredited, PROFESSIONAL organisation, similar to motorcyclists;

2. Recurrent testing of all licence holders (competency based).

This would go a long way towards making the roads safer, and our drivers (all of them, not just P-platers) more proficient drivers.

Personally, I wouldn't have a problem with recurrent testing. I get checked at least 5 times a year for my job. If I'm deficient in any area I get instructor input to get me up to standard. Overall it's a positive experience.

We had opposition to recurrent testing in my industry, too. Generally the most vociferous individuals were those who would be questionable under check anyway...

After all, a drivers licence is a privelege, not a right - is it not?
AnswerID: 147862

Follow Up By: Axle - Wednesday, Jan 11, 2006 at 20:27

Wednesday, Jan 11, 2006 at 20:27
I taught both daughters to drive 10 and 12 yrs ago , and when they were on their p plates neither had any probs. I think it's attitude related
the best driver trained student can be a different person out on the highway in his wrx. What i'm saying is their all good drivers but can cause heart ache to other families through stupidity.
Axle
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Follow Up By: Member - Glenn D (NSW) - Wednesday, Jan 11, 2006 at 20:56

Wednesday, Jan 11, 2006 at 20:56
Hows it going Axle,

Good to know people on this forum can get the tar brush out with the best of them.

For a long time our other car was a WRX ,and you will be happy to know that the amount of havoc that we caused with it was only matched by the amount of pedestrians we killed with our 4WD, None !

Although no speed limits in NT is very good :)

Glenn.
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Reply By: desert - Wednesday, Jan 11, 2006 at 20:15

Wednesday, Jan 11, 2006 at 20:15
It's called testosterone and it negates common sense, consequence of actions and to a greater extent masks their ignorance. I think back to the risks that I took as an 18 year old new to the roads. Should not be here writing this now! I don't think a young male thinks about consequences of his actions until about the age of 24 or so. Perhaps this should be the minimum driving age? Certainly, the older one gets the more one thinks things through more. Now, I'm in a job where I cut the bodies out from the wrecks and I still see the stupid actions and mistakes that have never been instilled into these young drivers, happening as usual. Driver education is one step, but you cannot legislate brains.
AnswerID: 147867

Follow Up By: Member - Blue (VIC) - Thursday, Jan 12, 2006 at 00:29

Thursday, Jan 12, 2006 at 00:29
Not trying to be a smartass but testosterone doesn't explain the inordinate number of young girls around my area who are worse than any bloke I know... I was young and I got my driver training in the army. I actually had training on a skid pan and learned a lot about vehicle control in difficult situations. The problem was I had a bad attitude and for the most part thought the extra training I had meant that I could push the limit that much further... The only upshot of my actions was that I chose to be a knob in places like industrial parks where the chances of injuring anyone but myself was greatly reduced. As stated above, I shouldn't be here to tell this story, guess I am one of the lucky one's... I don't know the answer but training alone will not fix it(I know 'cause I had it). Fines are only as restrictive as one's ability to pay(I had a good job and could afford them, so no deterrant) and altering a person's attitude is a very difficult thing to do.

Blue
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Reply By: Willem - Wednesday, Jan 11, 2006 at 20:18

Wednesday, Jan 11, 2006 at 20:18
Hmmmmm

It is FREEDOM to do with what you want. After years of being driven around by your parents suddenly you have the power of mobility!!!

Though where I grew up there was no such thing as a P PLate I can remember living dangerously with my crappy cars. Some near misses and a number of crashes in my lifetime and somehow I escaped reasonably unscathed.

Life is an evolution and we will evolve into having draconian laws before being able to get a drivers licence.

A licence is a right NOT a priviledge because to own a car is a right not a priviledge.

Better still...abolish all licences

There are just as many grown up peanut heads on the road as P Platers
AnswerID: 147869

Follow Up By: Mike Harding - Wednesday, Jan 11, 2006 at 20:32

Wednesday, Jan 11, 2006 at 20:32
>A licence is a right NOT a priviledge because to own a car is a
>right not a priviledge.

Willem - for possibly the first time - I agree with you.

Mike Harding
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Follow Up By: Willem - Wednesday, Jan 11, 2006 at 20:38

Wednesday, Jan 11, 2006 at 20:38
I think it is raining :o)
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Follow Up By: Mike Harding - Wednesday, Jan 11, 2006 at 20:45

Wednesday, Jan 11, 2006 at 20:45
It's bloody snowing here! :)

Mike Harding
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Follow Up By: Member - Blue (VIC) - Thursday, Jan 12, 2006 at 00:33

Thursday, Jan 12, 2006 at 00:33
"There are just as many grown up peanut heads on the road as P Platers"

Today on Springvale Rd, an old(looked about 70+) slammed his brakes on in the right hand lane, came to a dead stop and... Wait for it... Opened his Melways to see where his next turn was...WTF...??? I nearly rearranged the rear of his rather new looking BMW525i...

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Follow Up By: Willem - Thursday, Jan 12, 2006 at 13:32

Thursday, Jan 12, 2006 at 13:32
Blue

Beware of old gentlemen reading Melways.

Wonder what trouble you or I will get into when we are 70+

Springvale Road? Thats in the Big Smoke, eh? LOL
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Follow Up By: Member - Blue (VIC) - Thursday, Jan 12, 2006 at 17:33

Thursday, Jan 12, 2006 at 17:33
Willem

not having a go at the older folk, just parting from the "young" tone of the original post... To do something as stupid as stop in the right hand lane in an 80 zone, is not something I believe comes with age... You need to have been inherantly stupid your whole life for that one... Springvale Rd is outer east/south east of Melbourne... I'm sure as I age my skills may diminish but I'm in favour of all drivers on the road having to sit a basic road skills test when renuing the ticket... Perhaps every 3 years until about 26, every 5 years until about 55 and back to 3 years until we are no longer able to drive safely.
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Reply By: Jarse - Wednesday, Jan 11, 2006 at 20:25

Wednesday, Jan 11, 2006 at 20:25
Sorry, disagree Willem. You might have the right to own a motor vehicle, but that doesn't automatically give you the right to operate it. Not legally, at least.

Show me in the Australian Constitution where it states that we have the [i]right[/i] to a drivers licence.

Nope. Not there. Gidday ;)
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Follow Up By: Member - JohnR (Vic)&Moses - Wednesday, Jan 11, 2006 at 21:26

Wednesday, Jan 11, 2006 at 21:26
The Australian Constitution is more about governing of the Commonwealth and States and Territories and very little about anything on personal rights. Bearing that in mind Jarse, what is your point?
Cheers,
Who?
John

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Follow Up By: Willem - Wednesday, Jan 11, 2006 at 22:51

Wednesday, Jan 11, 2006 at 22:51
Jarse

Methinks that licences came in around 1912

The constitution was written in the 1890's

What is the point of owning a motor vehicle is you are not allowed to drive it. Next you will want an operators licence for an electric shaver LOL

Cheers
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Follow Up By: Austravel - Thursday, Jan 12, 2006 at 14:57

Thursday, Jan 12, 2006 at 14:57
I thought most of our rights had to be earned or am I from the old school. If it was a right to own one you'd get it and keep it for good wouldn't you?
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Reply By: Member - Luxoluk - Wednesday, Jan 11, 2006 at 20:33

Wednesday, Jan 11, 2006 at 20:33
In the "good ole days" you only had to prove you were safe in what you were doing. Loosly interpreted that meant you could cruise Vic highways at a ton (160ks for those that weren't around then, and whilst in new vehicles then they were on reflection just heaps of crap. Single freeways, slow old trucks, heaps of passing and best judgement and, if lucky, you survived. My point you say...well, lets get some perspective on where we have come from and where we are at today..chalk and cheese I say! Perhaps the only thing we have lost is tolerance??
AnswerID: 147875

Reply By: Gajm (VIC) - Wednesday, Jan 11, 2006 at 21:30

Wednesday, Jan 11, 2006 at 21:30
I think part of it is the "P" plate itself, it has a bit of a stigma to it so some of these drivers try to prove that they are "skilled" drivers in spite of the 'P" plate and go out of their way to show their car control with burnouts, high speeds and just idiotic risks that I am sure they think the rest of us are actualy impressed with.

I think a better system is needed, I am not sure what tho, I remember when they tried reducing bikes to 250cc for learners, and the Japanese made 250's that would do over 200kph, so my initial thought of reducing horsepower available to P platers probably wouldn't do any good.

Until something is done I will just keep shaking my head and hope I don't see them wrapped around a tree somehwere or worse, wrap me and my family around a tree.
AnswerID: 147892

Follow Up By: Axle - Wednesday, Jan 11, 2006 at 21:42

Wednesday, Jan 11, 2006 at 21:42
Now thats what Im talking ABOUT

Amen Axle
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Follow Up By: Member - Blue (VIC) - Thursday, Jan 12, 2006 at 00:40

Thursday, Jan 12, 2006 at 00:40
"so my initial thought of reducing horsepower available to P platers probably wouldn't do any good. "

I have shown(yes sometimes am still a knob) that the mighty Triton is good for atleast 160... Some would say it's power-to-weight figures would make it a good car for a young driver... Also the LSD combined with relatively low weight over the rear axle makes these kind of utes the perfect vehicle for a young'un trying to take advantage of a wet road.

So yes I agree reducing power is not the answer..
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Reply By: Notso - Wednesday, Jan 11, 2006 at 22:42

Wednesday, Jan 11, 2006 at 22:42
The trouble with our licencing system is that most kids are taught how to get a licence rather than how to drive.

The first time most of them get to control a vehicle in an emergency situation is when their lives depend on it.

There needs to be more emphasis put on teaching them how to drive. To have sympathy for and understand the dynamics of the vehicle they are driving and to have sympathy for other road users.

Most of us have an inbuilt level of risk that we are prepared to expose ourselves to on the road and in everyday living. If the car makers improve their vehicle safety and add all those electronic gizmos then we, the drivers think well it's safer so we can drive it faster and take more risks to bring our risk level back up to what we are comfortable with. Same thing when they improve roads. Safer so we drive faster and take more risks.

One approach would be to try and raise drivers awareness of the risks of driving so that we lower an individuals Acceptable risk level.
AnswerID: 147911

Reply By: rickwagupatrol - Wednesday, Jan 11, 2006 at 23:27

Wednesday, Jan 11, 2006 at 23:27
my aproach to this is simple......teach my kids how to drive,, take them down to license bureau to get piece of plastic,,,walk out door and promptly take it off them.
i drive for a living every day and see what happens out there, so to give my kids the best chance of surviving, its off to do a full advanced driver ed program for them. and unless they pass at least 95%, i don't give them the piece of plastic.

draconian you may say, but i would rather see my daughter's come home every day.

rick.
AnswerID: 147922

Reply By: Brian B (QLD) - Thursday, Jan 12, 2006 at 00:24

Thursday, Jan 12, 2006 at 00:24
Hi Axle,

I agree with Mike Harding on this one.

Education is the key but governments etc like to beat their chest and say how much they are doing but in fact they come up short.

I think people approaching the age to get a licence need to firstly be correctly taught how to drive including basic vehicle maintenance and then they should move on to an accredited defensive driving course and if succesful at this level they then should move on to a more advanced vehicle handling course which would cover things such as how to control a vehicle in a front wheel skid etc.

I know this sounds like a lot of training but I think it needs to happen before people are unleashed on the roads.

When I joined the ambulance service it was a pre-requisite to have your drivers licence but you didn't get near any of their vehicles until you had done the defensive and advanced training.

I know when I showed up to do this I thought I was pretty clever but I was put into situations where the instructor by way of using the dual controls in the vehicle quickly made me aware of how much I didn't know.

I think some of this education could be implemented while kids are in the later years of high school but in reality I think I am only dreaming.

I don't think fines etc are the answer.

Anyhow that's my two cents worth.

Have a good one.
AnswerID: 147928

Reply By: michael42 - Thursday, Jan 12, 2006 at 01:46

Thursday, Jan 12, 2006 at 01:46
Damn interesting. I've a 16yo daughter who is being taught now (by both parents) and is also lined up for lessons by others (including an accredited truck driver assessor). We have some really interesting conversations in the car, especially when she is a passenger, she tends to pick us up on faults. But, she is starting to learn to be aware, rather than just drive. The ability to drive is one thing, the awareness of the surroundings is another. She scares me, but I am a very cautious driver. I let her drive home from the RTA when she got her learner's permit. It's extremely daunting to learn how to drive, but once the mechanics and reactions are in place it get easier. In NSW they have to produce a log book of 50 hrs in varying conditions. 50 hrs is nothing, its guided experience they need and lots of it. Daughter is getting lots of experience in excess of the 50hrs (and has driven Big Red). I know that there is no guarantee when they get out by themselves, but a steady hand explaining the situations, even when she is a passenger, goes a long way.

Ohhh...and what car will I let her drive when she gets her licence...the 2.8d Hilux of course....lol.

We were all bullet proof once, I intend to let her see some of the scars where we had the near misses.

Cheers,

Michael
AnswerID: 147942

Reply By: Tellem Bugrem - Thursday, Jan 12, 2006 at 06:41

Thursday, Jan 12, 2006 at 06:41
CURFEWS, PASSENGER LIMITS, AND POWER RESTRICTIONS
FOR YOUNG DRIVERS.

Imagine a youth at 16 years of age targeting a career as a journalist, having had twelve years at school without the compulsory subject of English. The youth would crash at the first hurdle! This is what is happening to youths who are embarking on a life of driving a car, having had little or no education on the subject.

The three E's of road trauma countermeasures are Enforcement, Engineering and Education. In the past there has been substantial advancement in Enforcement (random breath tests, speed cameras, red light cameras etc.) and Engineering (seat belts, air bags, abs brakes, dual carriageways, roundabouts, etc.), but there has been little advancement in Road User Education. How many P platers have learnt how to drive at night, on gravel roads, in wet or snow/frost conditions? How many have learnt how to maintain a car, motor cycle or even a bicycle in a safe operating condition? How many have learnt how a road is designed or how to recognise hazardous conditions?

Curfews and passenger limits may be very effective Enforcement remedies and, car power restrictions may be a very effective Engineering countermeasure to reduce road trauma, but, where is the Education that will reduce the need for these restrictions? Perhaps our educators can develop a year 1-12 subject to cover all aspects of road safety from pedestrians to professional drivers, from skateboards to road trains, and from footpaths to freeways.

A graduate in this subject will have a far greater chance of survival and not crash at the first hurdle.

Rob Caldwell.......Traffic Engineer
AnswerID: 147948

Follow Up By: Footloose - Thursday, Jan 12, 2006 at 08:52

Thursday, Jan 12, 2006 at 08:52
One of the problems on our roads is driver attitude. There's too much "lead or get outta my way" attitude in young (and many older)drivers. Too little understanding that the speed limit is just that. A LIMIT. Not a compulsary speed. Doing 110 in a 100 zone is NOT compulsary. Nor, in many cases, is it safe, even if others are doing it in the mornings to get to work. Better late, than dead on time.
I knew a bloke who would sit his car on a certain speed OVER the limit, but wouldn't exceed that speed. That speed was the speed at which he would be fined the least if he was caught by the radar. It had nothing to do with road or traffic conditions. What a hero !

Notice I'm not talking about young people here.

Modern vehicles can easily lull a driver into doing things that are unsafe at speed. Coupled with aggression, lack of experience and a complete disregard for anyone else, these factors can be deadly. We need an attitude change in the motoring population. We need to be convinced that it's cool to drive defensively, not cool to hoon because we can't see a cop. We need appropriate driver education.

BUT

School curriculae are crowded enough, there is little space for passing more parental responsibilities to the schools.
It's all very well to say "teach them in school" but when ? By the time a kid has been "exposed" to the academic, sporting , social and cultural activities that society has dumped on the system, there's very little time left over.

If we're really serious about driver training, then we need to prioritize and fund it as a distinct compulsary subject taken over the six years of secondary education. And this, my friend, will come out of your taxes.

How long is it going to take us to realize that a good education is useless if the child doesn't survive their driver's license?

I've never forgotten what the policeman who gave me my license said.
"Congratulations, here's your license to kill."

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Reply By: 944runner - Thursday, Jan 12, 2006 at 09:03

Thursday, Jan 12, 2006 at 09:03
No matter how many times I see this topic it annoys me every time I read it.
First of all I am not a P plater.
Why do we always tag P platers as bad drivers? is it because they have that plate on their car that makes us remember them more? I can tell you right now if I counted the number of d*&k heads on the road I see in one day it would be lucky if 1 out of 10 was a P plater.
Is it just that we see the plate and automatically tag them as young and stupid?
Yes the system may be a little light on in allowing young people to get driving licenses and yes I had a few accidents when I was younger but hey everyone needs to learn from their mistakes!
I have a young one and new one on the way (about 1 week away) and I am dreading the day they get behind the wheel but I have learnt from friends teaching their kids that we can't wrap them in cotton wool (as much as we would like).
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Follow Up By: BenSpoon - Thursday, Jan 12, 2006 at 15:40

Thursday, Jan 12, 2006 at 15:40
Too right.
While we are on the case of penalising all P platers, should we make it compulsory for all E-plate drivers to wear big "I AM A DRINK DRIVER" stickers on their back windows? Why stop there? Lets ban all 4WDs from the city too.

If you are a P plater you are more likely to make errors in judgement because you are inexperienced- thats why we have the P's.

A simple question-
Whats your occupation now? Have you made mistakes in your profession?
now take a seat.

bleep s behind the wheel... thats something different.
Its human nature to show off or find excitement. I still find it funny how someone scared to sit on a quad bike for the first time will be hammering around within just a few minutes of learning the gears, and then within an hour will have their first stack and be scared of it again. Its called learning.
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Reply By: flappa - Thursday, Jan 12, 2006 at 09:47

Thursday, Jan 12, 2006 at 09:47
My daughter has got her P's.

She is FAR more aware of the rules then I bet most adults are.

What she does lack though , is experience.

Regretably , thats the biggest issue which causes the most problems.

When "we" were growing up , we got experience by clowing around on a mates farm , or back paddock , to see what our and the cars limits were.

Unfortunately , thats not as available and is frowned upon these days , coupled with Cheaper and VASTLY more high powered vehicles . . . its a worry.
AnswerID: 147971

Reply By: Fab - Thursday, Jan 12, 2006 at 11:44

Thursday, Jan 12, 2006 at 11:44
Who's the meat head who decided to give their daughter, what appered to be her first time behind the wheel driving lesson in peak hour traffic in Adelaide in none other than a V8 100 series Cruiser. Really!
As someone previously stated, driver behaviour is more often than not a result of their trainning, in many instances, their parents!
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Reply By: Fab - Thursday, Jan 12, 2006 at 11:45

Thursday, Jan 12, 2006 at 11:45
P.S. The Cruiser didn't even have an ExplorOz sticker on it. Shame shame shame. I guess that would account for the meat head comment!
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Reply By: Member - t0me (WA) - Thursday, Jan 12, 2006 at 11:54

Thursday, Jan 12, 2006 at 11:54
The reason I went out back of Kelmscott and thrashed around in my old Datsun 180b in the gravel pits(long closed now - sorry kids) is the same reason I suspect kids are doing stupid things on the road. They want to see what happens when... Also, some of you will have to admit, there's something pretty satisfying about pulling a hand brakey then flooring it and getting a nice moving 360 before heading off in the direction you were going in a cloud of dust. (flame on! I know I loved it as a kid)

course I'm older now, that old bomb I had died a horrible slow death many many years ago.

I know, thrashing that old car in the gravel taught me how to handle a skid and more importantly it taught me how quickly it can all go wrong and how little real control you have when the fit hits the shan (which it does very quickly when you're doing silly stuff).

Testing your limits is part of growing up.
Where can kids go today and sow those wild oats safely?

In the UK it costs a lot more to own and run a car, so people there seem to take more care of them, and more care of their driving. The motorway speed limit is 80 mile/hour but the cops won't stop for the most part unless you break the ton (100m/hr) unless you're restricting the flow of traffic. I doubt its an official ruling but certainly thats the case. People tend to be far more courteous and let you in graciously and (almost) always wave thanks if you let them in. There's more of the golden rule in practice there (people doing unto others as they would have them do unto them). They have a rule that makes you have to drive in the left most lane suitable to you, that the right lane is for overtaking, AND IT WORKS! (only critisism is they should ban trucks from ever going into the right lane, I mean, wtf is going through a truckie's mind when he feels the need to overtake the truck in front at 1m/hr faster than its going, blocking up the road for the hundreds of cars backed up behind him who are travelling faster).
They also allow motorbikes to filter between cars at the lights.
Other road users are more than just tolerant of bikers, they often move to the side of their lane to let you zoom past.
The government recognises that motorbikes and scooters are the way to go (especially in the Cities, and for commuters) and they have (some) specific lanes for them (bikes/taxi's/busses), they also don't charge them congestion fee's.
I rode a motorbike in central London for nearly 7 years and I never had an accident due to anyone else's negligence or stupidity.

The police have the focus of maintaining the flow of traffic rather than pedantically upholding the letter of the law, or using it for revenue raising.

Considering the density of the population and number of cars in such a small country they also have a surprisingly low amount of fatalities. Compared to here.

My 2 cents, I'm folding up my soapbox now ;-)
AnswerID: 148003

Reply By: Trev88 - Thursday, Jan 12, 2006 at 13:46

Thursday, Jan 12, 2006 at 13:46
Hi all

IMHO the agression on the road is a by product of the pressure we all put ourselves under every day. And it is manufested as road rage or shopping rage car park rage or just rage. While we all find excuses as to why we rage we in some way allow it to esculate. That is what we allow today will be the norm tomorrow.

I try and set targets when i drive to work of how many cars i can let in in one 45 min trip. so far my record is 48 cars that i have slowed to allow to change lanes and cut in front of me or pull in from a side street when stopped in traffic.

I warm thing is I still get to pass many of the people who i slow down to allow to cut in on me as I just make my way to work. The weavers generally get stuck behind a bus or slow moving vehicle at some point. It's hard to explain the warm glow as I pass them and wave good morning. They seem to forget that it was me who let them in only 200 mtrs back down the road and they mouth and give signs that would indicate that Im the DH.

TM2CW

Trev
AnswerID: 148026

Reply By: Justin - Thursday, Jan 12, 2006 at 14:14

Thursday, Jan 12, 2006 at 14:14
Attitude.

I don't think any amount of training will help if you have the wrong attitude to driving. If anything, too much training results in young drivers having a bad attitude. Driving is a very dangerous thing to do, and entails a huge amount of responsibility - especially to innocent others on the road.

I am aware of advanced driver instructors who comment that young girls these days are rapidly becoming as reckless as the boys - becuase of a shift towards a more aggressive attitude to driving - unfortunatley this is also being reflected in the accident stats. I wonder if computer driving games/media has a little to do with this shift in attitude?

I don't know what the solution is, but I don't think more 'education' will necessarily help. However, I do agree with the comment someone made about driving in the gravel pits out Kelmscott way - fooling around like that truely does teach some people how quickly you can loose controll in a car. Those kind of expereinces worked for me (and I was usually the passenger!) - but not for my best mate who was the driver who still drove like a D@#k head for many years, but my mate survived somehow and has since slowed down. Interestingly, loss of license and fines had little impact on him in the early years.

Anyway what works for one person does not necessarily work for others. Any form of driver training needs to recognise this...
AnswerID: 148034

Reply By: atoyot - Thursday, Jan 12, 2006 at 14:44

Thursday, Jan 12, 2006 at 14:44
Something you rarely see on the roads now is courtesy and respect. Come to think of it, you rarely see it anywhere now.

Andrew
AnswerID: 148046

Follow Up By: Austravel - Thursday, Jan 12, 2006 at 15:16

Thursday, Jan 12, 2006 at 15:16
How right you are and that's at all ages. Seems to be our society is heading down the path where courtesy, respect, tolerance, logic, common sense, trustworthiness, attitude etc, etc, etc are either not the common place or seen as weakness. This seems to be one major element of the knobs driving around today, ie not just P platers but the above attitudes/outlook in life that predisposes them to dangerous and poor driving.

Of all the "tools" I see driving a damn lot have had their licience for a long time. I'll make a bold statement- generally the ones I see with a major attitude in their driving also have one in life. Their the one's that camp real close with the music blaring, the generator running, their kids running around screaming or causing mayham, toss out rubbish, very agressive etc, etc. Yep then sit back and see how they drive!! The drama I see is that this group's membership number is getting pretty large and fines, education etc won't stop it. Not sure what will.
0
FollowupID: 401323

Reply By: Richard Kovac - Friday, Jan 13, 2006 at 00:42

Friday, Jan 13, 2006 at 00:42
Axle Hi
how did we get here
all they have to do is survive and they will get here Too
thats life

Richard
AnswerID: 148221

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