Which HF unit to buy

Submitted: Friday, Jan 13, 2006 at 19:05
ThreadID: 29669 Views:4614 Replies:16 FollowUps:32
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I would appreciate some help. I’m thinking about purchasing a HF radio unit.

Prior to speaking to retailers, it would be helpful to hear from people who have had long term experience with HF in their 4WD. This is what I would like to know:

• Which product and models, Barrett or Codan?
• What features should I be looking at?
• Ongoing costs through the networks.
• Is training required to get the best out of the unit?
• GPS connectivity.

If you can help, it would be appreciated.

Regards

Kim
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Reply By: Mike Harding - Friday, Jan 13, 2006 at 19:18

Friday, Jan 13, 2006 at 19:18
I think you should buy a Waeco.

Mike Harding
AnswerID: 148381

Follow Up By: howie - Friday, Jan 13, 2006 at 20:02

Friday, Jan 13, 2006 at 20:02
will you stop it!!!!
everyone knows the coban is best.

don't listen to mike, he's a comedian
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Follow Up By: Mike Harding - Friday, Jan 13, 2006 at 20:16

Friday, Jan 13, 2006 at 20:16
>everyone knows the coban is best.

I think he means the Cobb - but that's rubbish, don't listen to him, he knows _nothing_ about radios! Cobbs consume far too much charcoal.

Go Waeco!

Mike Harding
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Follow Up By: howie - Friday, Jan 13, 2006 at 20:36

Friday, Jan 13, 2006 at 20:36
err, has a waeco got auto-tune?????? i don't think so
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Follow Up By: Mike Harding - Friday, Jan 13, 2006 at 20:46

Friday, Jan 13, 2006 at 20:46
They did... but they were frozen out of that market by cheap Engles being imported on the grey market from China. So... go ahead then! See if I care... buy an Engle with an auto-tune but don't come whining back to us when your $98 Bunnings generator breaks down!!!!!!!!!!

Mike Harding
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Follow Up By: kimprado - Friday, Jan 13, 2006 at 20:50

Friday, Jan 13, 2006 at 20:50
Why would I buy a Waeco to clean the festering puss from my toe nails in the bush?

Regards

Kim
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Follow Up By: Mike Harding - Friday, Jan 13, 2006 at 20:52

Friday, Jan 13, 2006 at 20:52
Perhaps you should see a doctor?

Or a vet...?

Mike Harding
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Follow Up By: Mad Dog (Australia) - Saturday, Jan 14, 2006 at 19:30

Saturday, Jan 14, 2006 at 19:30
Hey Mike, what you you know about radio
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Follow Up By: Mad Dog (Australia) - Saturday, Jan 14, 2006 at 23:55

Saturday, Jan 14, 2006 at 23:55
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Follow Up By: Mad Dog (Australia) - Saturday, Jan 14, 2006 at 23:58

Saturday, Jan 14, 2006 at 23:58
u know if I put a word such as "grin" between greater than and less than symbols then nothing appears...WTF
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Follow Up By: Mike Harding - Sunday, Jan 15, 2006 at 16:05

Sunday, Jan 15, 2006 at 16:05
>Hey Mike, what you you know about radio

When I removed the cover from the new rig I recently bought and took a look at the circuit diagrams (why do they bother?!) my answer to that question is: not much! :)

Mike Harding
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Follow Up By: Mad Dog (Australia) - Sunday, Jan 15, 2006 at 16:18

Sunday, Jan 15, 2006 at 16:18
OMG and you're a design engineer, what hope have I got.
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Reply By: Member - Davoe (Widgiemooltha) - Friday, Jan 13, 2006 at 19:23

Friday, Jan 13, 2006 at 19:23
Barrett - Codan = Nissan v Toyota, Engal cs Waeco etc etc
Personally I worked at a place that used barretts most of them fairly old, The radiaos just got swapped from old vehicles to new (along with the Engals) and the vehicles copped some punishment so that was good enough for me.
The features i wanted were talk, and sellcall and the ability to uprade to Radtell (just needs and extra tap or 2 on the ariel
And it had to be cheap
I ended up with a Barrett 250 which has given me all that
My ariel is VKS frequncys only which is about $90 a year for membership.
Wanting low cost and simplicity with few requirments besides VKS I went for a multi tap antenae but most prefer Auto tunes which gives you easy access to alot more stations.
Training for anything is always handy but they are not to complicated to work out for yourself with a bit of reading and perhaps a mate in the know giving a few pointers
AnswerID: 148383

Reply By: Member - Luxoluk - Friday, Jan 13, 2006 at 19:48

Friday, Jan 13, 2006 at 19:48
Hi Kim
After lots of use I find only one channel gets a hammering and that's channel 2 on the VKS network. If you can get selcall that's an advantage and a multi tap is as good if not better than the autotune. Remote head is also convenient depending upon your intended use. Keep it simple and you will get some change in your pocket. As for GPS I reckon the jury is out on this. Check out "bcon" if you have a special interest in this. Good luck in any event.
AnswerID: 148393

Reply By: Member- Rox (WA) - Friday, Jan 13, 2006 at 19:50

Friday, Jan 13, 2006 at 19:50
It was Barrett for Me why
it was second hand from the trader only 3 months old
Saved me $1300 off new price
Barrett is in WA
I use VKS & Radtell + becon & Selcall. Can also listen to radio when in the desert.

I wouldn't be with out 1 now as I used it Round Oz for 1 year.
AnswerID: 148394

Reply By: Member - David 0- Friday, Jan 13, 2006 at 20:00

Friday, Jan 13, 2006 at 20:00
I bought and old Codan 8528, because I got a nice deal from footloose.
It has given me good service apart from the one problem, it has never been able to send a selcal. Well it can send, but to the wrong person- seems the tumber switches for the code are out of synch. I've not bothered to get footloose to have a look at it again because I'm too damn lazy. But as far as the rest of it goes, it works damn fine and has given good service. I went for a multitap becasue I am on a budget and I think they work better- inconvenient but better in my view.
AnswerID: 148399

Follow Up By: Footloose - Friday, Jan 13, 2006 at 22:19

Friday, Jan 13, 2006 at 22:19
David, email me when you're ready to sort out the selcall.
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Follow Up By: Member - David 0- Friday, Jan 13, 2006 at 23:00

Friday, Jan 13, 2006 at 23:00
will do mate.
Thanks for the offer.
It was only an issue on the last trip, and not a big bother.

Before I contacted you I was going to try a spray with contact cleaner...anyway your service is fantastic and will def talk to you about problems
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Reply By: Member - Paul P (Bris) - Friday, Jan 13, 2006 at 20:08

Friday, Jan 13, 2006 at 20:08
Kim

After much thought I purchased a Codan NGT AR Voice. I liked their technology, small form factor and reputation. Codan know has a slightly cheaper NGT model with a number of options available for it for the traveller like us. The GPS module is an option for the NGT.

You will need to understand the limitations of HF radio. One of the reason I purchased the CODAN NGT was for its simplicity of operation when properly pre programmed.

I am a member of the VKS737 HF radio network and I use RADPHONE for my HF telephone connections.

Biggest hassle I had was mounting the HF auto tune and the resultant increase in vehicle clearance (height) along with the vagaries of ADR compliance when mounting ( unfortunately this appears to vary from state to state).

Regards

Paul
AnswerID: 148406

Follow Up By: Member - Roachie (SA) - Saturday, Jan 14, 2006 at 08:27

Saturday, Jan 14, 2006 at 08:27
Paul,
Looking at one of your rig pics I can see what you mean about the auto-tune being a suseptible to being caught etc.
I have a Barrett and the auto-tune base is substantially shorter and is about equall to the rof line of the GU when using the bracket on the rear door.
Not saying that this would be a reason to look at changing to a Barrett; just an observation.
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Follow Up By: geocacher (djcache) - Saturday, Jan 14, 2006 at 14:24

Saturday, Jan 14, 2006 at 14:24
There's other mounts that get the spring down at around roof line.

Then if you use an RFI stainless whip and make an adaptor bolt up you have a really flexible whip the same length and efficience of the fibreglass Codan whip that you can leave on all the time.

No damage from tree or bird strikes and you don't trash the flouros in the under cover car parks either.

Dave
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Reply By: Willem - Friday, Jan 13, 2006 at 20:34

Friday, Jan 13, 2006 at 20:34
I have a wonderfully old Codan 6924 circa 1973

It works on skip sometimes.

I have it should an emergency arise.

I also have a Satphone

Codan products are by far more superior than Barrett Products, so I am informed, but Barret works just as well.

You can get into a Codan HF from around $150 for the unit and $250 for aerial(second hand of course) and go upwards from there to around $4000 for the NGT model
AnswerID: 148416

Follow Up By: Mike Harding - Friday, Jan 13, 2006 at 20:40

Friday, Jan 13, 2006 at 20:40
>Codan products are by far more superior than Barrett Products,
>so I am informed, but Barret works just as well.

If Barret works just as well as Codan why are Codan [sic] more superior?

Mike Harding

PS. What's the deal with the sat phone subsidy?
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Follow Up By: Willem - Friday, Jan 13, 2006 at 22:13

Friday, Jan 13, 2006 at 22:13
I typed a reply but then EO went AWOL

Here we go again..............

Radios are radios

Codan has spent $20 million on R&D and the majoprity of its customers are overseas. 4WD, recreationalists and emergency services in Australia account for only 5% of Codans customers. NGT radios are more sophisticated than Barrett, so I am informed, by a luminary.

Satphone subsidy expires mid 2007. Anyone can apply. Just have to state that you are travelling for a number of months per year outside the CDMA phone range. Get about $1500 subsidy on $2000 phone
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Reply By: kimprado - Friday, Jan 13, 2006 at 21:13

Friday, Jan 13, 2006 at 21:13
Mike,
I did that, but all I was given was dog food. It cleared up my complextion. However, the puss remains. I am now starting to understand your point of view. I was totally focussed on a HF unit to cure my ailment. Now I can see that Waeco is the only answer.
Regards
Kim
AnswerID: 148428

Follow Up By: Mike Harding - Saturday, Jan 14, 2006 at 06:48

Saturday, Jan 14, 2006 at 06:48
Having reflected overnight on the argument presented by Howie regarding the autotune aspect of the Waeco I have had a change of heart and am now convinced you should opt for the Honda.

Mike Harding
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FollowupID: 401715

Reply By: Footloose - Friday, Jan 13, 2006 at 22:24

Friday, Jan 13, 2006 at 22:24
* Codan or Barrett, depending on your preferences and what you can afford.
* Selcall, telcall, possible GPS connectivity, size of remote head, accessability of operational features to a beginner.
* 737 around $80 pa, Radtel around $150 ?
*How familiar are you with HF ? If not at all, then training is a great idea but not essential if you can learn things by yourself.
* Few networks can actually utilize the GPS connectivity at the moment, but this will change in the near future...we hope.

AnswerID: 148441

Reply By: Member - Geoff M (Newcastle) - Friday, Jan 13, 2006 at 23:04

Friday, Jan 13, 2006 at 23:04
Hello kimprado,
I've a Codan HF, sold secondhand to me by member "Footloose"
His post is above mine. Jim refurbishes and sells secondhand Codans' with autotune aerial and backs them well.

For me that was the best deal,

Geoff.
Geoff,
Landcruiser HDJ78,
Grey hair is hereditary, you get it from children. Baldness is caused by watching the Wallabies.

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AnswerID: 148449

Reply By: Martyn (WA) - Friday, Jan 13, 2006 at 23:26

Friday, Jan 13, 2006 at 23:26
Kimprado,
I have a 40 ltr Engle for the record, worx a treat, never been a problem. I also have a Barrett 550 which has also been trouble free, I use a multi tap, find the reception is better, might be a tad painful for adjusting the frequency but hey you need to get out now and again anyway. 90% of the time I use only one frequency anyway 8022.
My opinions as usual.
Keep the shiny side up

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AnswerID: 148455

Reply By: geocacher (djcache) - Saturday, Jan 14, 2006 at 00:46

Saturday, Jan 14, 2006 at 00:46
Hi Kim,

In the past I've owned a Codan 7727B, 87xx, 8528 & now an 9323 & an NGT AR.

I've had an 8558 (2 actually - still have one in bits) and both the 9323 & NGT have 9350 autotunes on them.

I did briefly own a Barrett 550 & autotune and sold it to a friend. I've also trained another VKS member I met in my travels how to use their 550 - they'd had it two years and not ever tried it.

I've also had tapped whips.

I'm a comms tech by trade but hadn't really dabbled in HF for years until I started back again a few years ago.

Barrett/Codan is like Ford & Holden.

Both are good units and for the most part will perform as expected when expected. I have seen some dumb design decisions in the 550 regarding the way the volume potentiometer mounts to the board but it's a problem that would only rear it's head in a few sets and only if subjected to harsh treatment. (Lots of corrugations over a longish period of use.)

A few words of advice.

Yes you can get started for under $500. It's a bit like buying a motorbike helmet though. I always say your heads only worth what you are prepared to pay to protect it. Radios aren't a lot different in some ways. Would you stake your life on a 35 year old radio if you really needed it? Yes they do work but anything that age has passed the expected life of some of the components used to make it. It will fail eventually.

(By the way, with Codan gear the first two numbers indicate the year the model design commenced though not neccessarily the year of manufacture eg. 8528 - 1985.)

Tapped whips are simple. Will generally take a bit of a beating and still perform. You need to manually change the tapping when you change channel though and some people think this is a pain. Not so much if on VKS737 where you'll spend most of your life on 8022, but certainly on Radtel Network where frequency changing is a constant exercise.

The 85xx Codans are good units. Reliable, computer programmed (no crystals) and can be set up a number of ways. The 8528 is the pick of the bunch and gives the user more flexibility in setup, displays frequencies and can phone dial direct. Many are sold with the older 8558 autotune and they are renowned as a piece of crap - failure on a working 8558 is not a case of if as much as when. The later D series is more reliable but only just.

The 8528 however is no longer supported by Codan and parts such as the membrane keypad are no longer available. Should that fail & you can't find spares the set is pretty much useless. That said if they look to be in good nick you could get years of use out of one. Expect to pay $1000-1200 for a set and 8558 autotune, or about $1400-1600 with a 9350.

The 9350 autotune is faster to tune, has a much better system doing it, amplifies internally for listening/scanning and is extremely reliable. On their own they sell for between $500-1200 depending on age & series. New they are about $1450 and Codan still service & sell them.

The 9323 is a much better radio than the 8528. More channels. Alphanumeric labelling of channels. Multiple selcals (good for a separate outgoing billing selcal for Radtel) and memory setup. They are still serviced/supported by Codan. Easy to use with a little practice and good value for under $2000 with a 9350 autotune.

The NGT is the ducks guts if it has the right program profile in it. If not it's a pain in the ar$e. I bought mine a little while ago and I'm getting the hang of it now. I had it reprogrammed and the firmware upgraded by Lake MacQuarrie Comms who operate the Radtel Network and now it's extremely simple to use. Great for Lynne who was always reluctant to get on the air.

The DSP filtering called Easytalk makes static much less of an issue and listening is so clear it is unbelievable. Other features are usefull but most people won't ever use them to their potential.

An NGT Venturer will set you back about $4000 or a bit less if you haggle hard new. (I heard of one at $3700 recently) Second hand you can pick up NGT AR's for between $2300-$3500 with an 9350 if you shop around.

If you have the $$ the NGT is the way to go. The 9323 a close second and if push comes to shove a Barrett 550 before the 8528 but make sure you get a late model (grey) autotune not the creamy color one. The cases on the early ones are now fatiguing apparently though I've not seen it.

The Barrett will inevitably be cheaper. (I picked one up that needed a little work for $400 but that was a steal. Sold it for just under a grand when repaired and that's probably about where the market is for those right now.)

They are a good set, but difficult to use if you are used to Codans. Once you understand the button & menu system it's quite intuitive.

Join VKS737 and the best way to learn is to get on the scheds. Don't be shy. The operators are very supportive of newbies. Make sure everyone in the car - kids too - know how to get on the air and selcall a base. No good having one operator if they're the one in trouble.

Radtel is good and I've used it a bit. Cheaper than the Satphone (1/2 price of Iridium) for call costs and quite clear if you pick your frequency well. There's a way of doing that.

Any other questions fire away.

Seeing as how the thread degenerated earlier - I own an Engel and a 9350 autotune. Both as reliable as each other but no matter where I set the dial on the fridge the antenna won't tune to it..... as long as the beers & bundies were cold and I could listen to the footy on the Canning I didn't care though....

Hope that helps,

Dave

AnswerID: 148468

Follow Up By: geocacher (djcache) - Saturday, Jan 14, 2006 at 00:49

Saturday, Jan 14, 2006 at 00:49
If you do end up with an early model radio for affordability there's nothing wrong with it, it's just not optimal but that's life & budgets - but don't go earlier than an 8525B.

Preferably get one with a remote head so that the head of the radio can be mounted in the front of the truck while the bulky transmitter receiver can be mounted down the back or on the cargo barrier.

Forgot to mention that.

Dave
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Follow Up By: Member - Luxoluk - Saturday, Jan 14, 2006 at 11:08

Saturday, Jan 14, 2006 at 11:08
There's only one unit that counts....a Codan 9320...any idiot can use it!!
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Follow Up By: Willem - Saturday, Jan 14, 2006 at 12:10

Saturday, Jan 14, 2006 at 12:10
I agree that my 6924 has passed its Use By Date but at this stage of my life I am not going to fork out $4000 for a NGT.

I have found a company in Adelaide who can still service and repair them.

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Follow Up By: geocacher (djcache) - Saturday, Jan 14, 2006 at 14:22

Saturday, Jan 14, 2006 at 14:22
So what is it that you are admitting about yourself in this very public forum Luxoluk??

Give yourself a little credit! You did manage to fit it yourself - rather nicely too I might add.

Dave
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Follow Up By: Member - Luxoluk - Saturday, Jan 14, 2006 at 16:30

Saturday, Jan 14, 2006 at 16:30
Hi ya Dave. Yeah I thought my comment may get a response and very positive at that too!!
Do you look like being a goer for the salt races in March? I'm a remote posibility but something else will have to give if I take another week off. Fly out tomorrow and away for a fortnight so leave is getting a bit tight.
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Follow Up By: geocacher (djcache) - Saturday, Jan 14, 2006 at 22:55

Saturday, Jan 14, 2006 at 22:55
Hope to get to the salt. Just have to talk to Pete regarding dates.

Have a good trip - pleasure or pain (work?)

Dave
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Follow Up By: Member - Luxoluk - Sunday, Jan 15, 2006 at 11:18

Sunday, Jan 15, 2006 at 11:18
Hi Dave...all pleasure but as for pain...... I suppose I should say SWMBO is also going. Cheers for now
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Follow Up By: geocacher (djcache) - Sunday, Jan 15, 2006 at 12:43

Sunday, Jan 15, 2006 at 12:43
I hope she doesn't surf EO.com on the sly searching your posts...

Have a good/safe trip mate.

Dave
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Reply By: Mike DiD - Saturday, Jan 14, 2006 at 09:14

Saturday, Jan 14, 2006 at 09:14
When considering antennas, keep in mind that in several states, it is now illegal to mount AutoTune HF antennas (diameter greater than 30mm) at the front of the vehicle.

Tests done by Codan show that it is less efficient (and you have more chance of wiping it out when you forget its there and drive under low branches/rooves), but we have no choice.

Mike
AnswerID: 148485

Reply By: Darian (formerly Banjo) - Saturday, Jan 14, 2006 at 09:43

Saturday, Jan 14, 2006 at 09:43
My first HF was Tracker Scout (8 crystal operated, set channels) -a solid reliable unit with excellent quality voice comms (nearly always far superior to the modern radios) - I had a tapped whip antenna. If all you need is voice, such a unit could be your HF entry point - and they are old now to the point that they are just about give-aways ..... the tapped whip antennas though are rarely give-away. These crystal radios can still be repaired by the techs. - some parts are available, but they seem to last forever. I moved up to a Barrett 950, to gain selcall (and the subsequent Radphone facility). Any quality selcall capable radio, regardless of model or age will drop you into this next level of HF usage, as long as it is all in good order. Codan has a great reputation - Barrett too has many satisfied, long term devotees. Got my 950 at a bargain price - too good to let go - could easily have been a Codan 9323 or possibly an NGT though. As for GPS - I'm told the current crop all have GPS units that can be retro fitted within the main case. I know bugger all about the practical use of this facility though.
One comment re use of GPS data - at VKS737 (I'm a staff volunteer) the policy is NOT to process GPS data for members, due to both reliability of transmission and liability factors ........ other service providers may be happy transmit the data though. As mentioned above, base operators are happy to have a chat on sked to any member - particualrly new members - welcome at any time to give the radio a "run".
AnswerID: 148491

Reply By: Member - Phil G (SA) - Saturday, Jan 14, 2006 at 12:05

Saturday, Jan 14, 2006 at 12:05
Just my personal experience as I was in the same situation as you 3 yaers ago:

#1 I bought a new Barrett 950 Autotune because the retailer was the most helpful, and offered free training; because they were considerably cheaper; because the autotune is not as tall, so easier to install, and because they are an aussie company like Codan. If buying tomorrow, I'd look at similar factors again, and if they favoured Codan then I'd buy codan.

#2 450channels: you can get them all preprogrammed into the latest sets which means you can flick channels like you do on the TV and listen to the networks, ABC, Radionational, aeroplanes etc etc etc

#3 Telcall means you can use your HF as a telephone. I signed up to Bushphone ($115 per year) and its been worth every cent. I can call the wife every morning to tell her where I am and that puts her mind at rest, or if she's away with me, we call up the kids. I've also used it to phone friends, motels, spare parts places etc etc etc The best part of this is that you can call out easily, but no body can bother you by calling you - so I tell work that I'm non-contactable :-)) If someone needs to contact you, Bushphone will selcall you. And Bushphone also make you a member of a second 4wd network for free, but because VKS737 is so good, I've never found this necessary.

#4 Training is essential, and needs to happen over a period of time. Best to do a short course, and follow it up, by using the radio, getting the hang of the lingo etc etc It helps if you've got a mate who can help.

#5 GPS connectivity. Mine can have this, but can't think of what I'd want it for.

#6 Train your partner how to use it as well - HF is not much use if you're the one who'sinjured.

Cheers
Phil
AnswerID: 148512

Follow Up By: stubby - Sunday, Jan 15, 2006 at 12:52

Sunday, Jan 15, 2006 at 12:52
Hello Phil, I am interested in the hf antenna mount on the back of your ute.Could you let me know some details about it please
Thanks Stubby
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Follow Up By: Member - Phil G (SA) - Sunday, Jan 15, 2006 at 16:51

Sunday, Jan 15, 2006 at 16:51
Hi Stubby,

I made it myself - it simply bolts onto the back of the canopy. The bit coming out is 50mm RHS steel with a mounting hole drilled in the end. To access the nut is deliberately difficult - need to remove the end cap to do so.

To get the best transmission possible, the aerial is sitting back as far as is reasonable, and its tilted away from the canopy - it needs at least 160mm clearance at the base, and more clearance higher up.

I also carry a "SuperRod", which is a 9 metre collapsable HF aerial stocked by Electric Bug in Adelaide. I can hook it into my autotune which gives it performance as good as most base stations, and it only takes a minute to set up and put down. My superrod fits into a mount I made near the top of the autotune.
!MPG:20!

Cheers
Phil
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FollowupID: 401938

Reply By: Member - Jim (Syd) - Saturday, Jan 14, 2006 at 16:19

Saturday, Jan 14, 2006 at 16:19
We have a Barrett 950 Autotune, my mate in Adelaide has a Codan. Both work very well. Doug Taylor at Radtel sells both and the iCom unit.

Best of luck with your choice. BTW, neither every seem to tune into the Engel, but the beer is still okay.
Jim
VKS 737
Call Sign Mobile 2737

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AnswerID: 148544

Follow Up By: Bonz (Vic) - Saturday, Jan 14, 2006 at 17:59

Saturday, Jan 14, 2006 at 17:59
You need the Cooper STT autotune inverter to tune the Engel. Many will steer you in the direction of the Southern Cross easyrect tuner but the Cooper outperforms all but the t-Van.
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Follow Up By: kimprado - Sunday, Jan 15, 2006 at 15:04

Sunday, Jan 15, 2006 at 15:04
Bonz,
I think you need a Hi-Lift kit and chrome sump for that to work.
Regards
Kim
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Follow Up By: Bonz (Vic) - Sunday, Jan 15, 2006 at 15:16

Sunday, Jan 15, 2006 at 15:16
Of course, the Hi-Lift offsets the Magellan effect of the canvas, how did I miss that detail, thankyou Kim I am forever in your debt.
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Follow Up By: Member - Geoff M (Newcastle) - Sunday, Jan 15, 2006 at 15:54

Sunday, Jan 15, 2006 at 15:54
Well Bonz,
If you treat the canvas as a proper Garmin this will totally negate the Magellan effect leaving plenty of time for draining Engel's and the occassional Waeco.

Geoff.
Geoff,
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