low sulpher in deisel has ruined my seals

Submitted: Tuesday, Jan 17, 2006 at 16:30
ThreadID: 29792 Views:1710 Replies:8 FollowUps:11
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My 4runner fuel pump seals need replacing due the new deisel. What I have discovered is that this fuel has been fazed in over the last 3 or so years. A similar question was posted here 2-10-04 ( post ID 16737) The response suprised me. I live in Mackay and it seems we are just starting to get pump seal problems now. Is this because we have only just started to get the new fuel? People here did not seem to be informed of the change in the fuel, even a local independent servo owner was very suprised to find out his supply of deisel was different. Can anyone inform me when this areas supply changed, why there was a lack of information, are we entitled to any compo as said by prl on 2-10-04. These pumps aren't cheap to fix and I feel we're getting ripped off. Any advise would be greatly appriciated.
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Reply By: Rigor - Tuesday, Jan 17, 2006 at 16:40

Tuesday, Jan 17, 2006 at 16:40
Hi Matbran , I thought this issue was all over and done with , I would be surprised if the low Sulphur fuel was only getting to your area now . Yes the price is a ripoff considering that in most cases there is only 2 maybe 3 seals to replace, the spindle seal , the input shaft seal (usually OK) and the top plate seal .I think a major part of the cost is getting the pump off then re-calibrating after re-assembled, then fitting and timing.

cheers Dave L.
AnswerID: 149164

Follow Up By: matbran - Tuesday, Jan 17, 2006 at 16:49

Tuesday, Jan 17, 2006 at 16:49
Thanks Dave,
I'd hope we wern't that far behind either but our local Toyota has done 60 pumps in the last 2 weeks and our deisel injection shop in town is full up for 1 month. I think somethings wrong. Do you think a really bad batch could do this or the low sulpher?

cheers mat
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Follow Up By: ACDC - Tuesday, Jan 17, 2006 at 21:40

Tuesday, Jan 17, 2006 at 21:40
We have done a few top seals in the last month but all the vehicles were approx 10 years old the seal rollsover causing the leak,never had to take a pump off yet to replace seals.
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Reply By: Member - Bill S (NSW) - Tuesday, Jan 17, 2006 at 20:10

Tuesday, Jan 17, 2006 at 20:10
Matbran, How come you are all so------- Tested in USA years ago 20 vehicles fitted with FITCH no sulpher NO leaks 20 like vehicles no FITCH ALLleaked. WAKE up guys and Gals.
We do not advertise on this site for nothing. The most Dumbest remarks are made about this product on this site are uttered all without proof of what is said.
You asked for advice well I am telling you fit a FITCH and your problems will vanish
Keep your eyes and ears open and learn

Regards BILLS (just could not help myself with what I know).
AnswerID: 149210

Follow Up By: Bilbo - Wednesday, Jan 18, 2006 at 01:19

Wednesday, Jan 18, 2006 at 01:19
What's a FITCH?

Bilbo
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FollowupID: 402442

Follow Up By: matbran - Wednesday, Jan 18, 2006 at 10:31

Wednesday, Jan 18, 2006 at 10:31
hi bilbo,

some brief surfing found this website
www.fitchcatalyst.com.au
this should answer your question

cheers mat
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FollowupID: 402488

Reply By: dieselup - Tuesday, Jan 17, 2006 at 20:42

Tuesday, Jan 17, 2006 at 20:42
Are you sure the low sulpher fuel is the cause and not another contaminant is the cause of your problems?
Low sulpher fuel appeared in underground coal mines around about ten years ago to improve emission levels - emissions are strictly monitored
It runs in a wide variety of engines and fuel systems, Caterpillar, bosch,stanadyne,zexel diesel kiki, very similar pumps to your 4 runner
I havent seen any pump failures on mass due to the fuel its self ,it's usually due to water ,algae or some other contaminant that shouldn't be there
Contact an independant test lab in your area ,get them to test a sample of the fuel
The results might be interesting
AnswerID: 149214

Reply By: Billowaggi - Tuesday, Jan 17, 2006 at 23:55

Tuesday, Jan 17, 2006 at 23:55
I agree with ACDC, there is a big rip off going on with some mechanics and pump shops. We have had low sulphur here in the west for about five years and since then I have done a heap of top seals [maybe 15or20] only once has the pump had to be removed to fix a leak from somewhere else. The top cover seal costs $15 and I charge 1 hour labour to fit it.
Regards Ken.
AnswerID: 149272

Reply By: Bilbo - Wednesday, Jan 18, 2006 at 01:34

Wednesday, Jan 18, 2006 at 01:34
Low Sulphur is refined by using a slightly different method to the older diesel. This results in a different molecular structure (or different chemical compund if you like) of the diesel.

It's this new chemical structure that causes old seals to swell and leak.

It's a bit like using petrol to clean off bitumen spray of your car - no problem. But then try using acteone - see which one takes the paint off.

It's not the lower suplhur that's the problem.

Blame the refiners.

Bilbo
AnswerID: 149287

Reply By: Bodge - Wednesday, Jan 18, 2006 at 03:05

Wednesday, Jan 18, 2006 at 03:05
I had my LC injectors replaced recently by a well regarded diesel specialist. He told me that modern fuels wear the injector pump much faster than the old so they are having to be serviced more frequently. He strongly advised using an additive to add lubricant - any of the reputable ones available in stores he said. The costs is probably small in relation to a pump rebuild ($1500?).
AnswerID: 149290

Reply By: richopesto - Wednesday, Jan 18, 2006 at 09:09

Wednesday, Jan 18, 2006 at 09:09
I bought a car off an OHS rep for BP mid last year. He told me that since the intodruction of low suplhur diesel, Shell, BP and others continue to try and reduce emissions and sulphur content as far as possible.
Apparently BP is the lowest sulphur diesel on the market currently - >2ppm ??(or something very low). that is to say - the diesel they are now making is FAR worse for older diesel motors than when it was initialy produced a few years ago.
It would seem fuel companies determination to reduce emission based on envoironmental concerns is in direct contradiction to the needs of, particularly older, diesel motors.
After hearing this news, which I assumed to be a good thing, (and not knowing any better) I drove around Tassie for 4 weeks using nothing but BP diesel (Hilux '89 2.8D). By the time I was driving back up the Hume, my trucks engine rattles were drowning out the stereo !! If I didnt know better, I would have thought I was running on half oil.
Addition of some 'dirty' Woolies diesel and some well-renowned lubricant additive and my motor went all quiet again.
In a nutshell - ALL modern diesel fuels require an additive if your car is more than around 5-7 years old. Mostly indirect injection models.
But, Im making bio-diesel now so these concerns are not so relevant to me anymore :-)

cheers
richopesto
AnswerID: 149323

Follow Up By: richopesto - Wednesday, Jan 18, 2006 at 09:14

Wednesday, Jan 18, 2006 at 09:14
I meant "well renowned DIESEL additive" doh.
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Follow Up By: ACDC - Wednesday, Jan 18, 2006 at 22:48

Wednesday, Jan 18, 2006 at 22:48
Your pump will wear out quicker with bio diesel.
Read the latest renew magazine there's an article from a fellow who has been running it for years in his 80 series the pumps been rebuilt 3 times so far!
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FollowupID: 402747

Follow Up By: richopesto - Thursday, Jan 19, 2006 at 10:18

Thursday, Jan 19, 2006 at 10:18
Thats a pretty brave statement. One persons experience (as long as it may be) is not hard data. No length of time, no km's travelled. Has he tested his bio-diesel for quality?
Much information on the internet, and other peoples experiences, would put your statement seriuosly to the test.

I think people get confused between the product biodiesel - which cleans all the crap out of your fuel system thus causing blockages and other problems, and the USE of biodiesel, whch is commonly used in conjunction with petro-diesel.
Bio-diesel does not "ruin your injector pump". The contaminants leftover from ptero-diesel usage raised from the system when bio-diesel is used are more likely to cause damage.
Admittedly - bio-diesel does rot rubber - fuel lines, return lines, seals etc. Non-rubber replacements are easily available for all these parts. It is not uncommon to have to replace most of these parts shortly after commencing bio-diesel use, this is normal. especially on older vehicles.
Furthermore, many folks throw a few chemicals together and give little regard to the quality of the fuel they are making. Bad bio-diesel is possibly worse than bad peto-diesel for your system. (it is highly possible your "years of experience" guy does this).
Is he still using bio-diesel? That would be my next question.
Your glib statemen, without any hard data, is relatively innocuous. Bu if you take these bar-room comments as fact, and you drive a diesel, your missing out on the next big thing in automotive advancement.
You only have to look at the number of TDI passenger vehicles and the massively increased demand for commercial bio-diesel use in Europe (yes, big companies sell it at bowsers) to predict the future for here.

cheers
richopesto
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FollowupID: 402849

Follow Up By: ACDC - Thursday, Jan 19, 2006 at 19:02

Thursday, Jan 19, 2006 at 19:02
Give Cooma diesel a call they made the statement and did the repairs apparently its the moisture in the fuel that turns to steam and damages the housing!
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FollowupID: 402946

Follow Up By: richopesto - Friday, Jan 20, 2006 at 09:24

Friday, Jan 20, 2006 at 09:24
ACDC,

So what your really saying is WATER caused the damage. Nothing to do with bio-diesel.
Thus my suspicions were correct - your mate has been using crappy bio-diesel.
Well made bio-diesel has the same or less water content than petro-diesel. It requires 'drying' after making it, which is basically heating it to 50C to remove any water that remains from the washing process. Bio-diesel can easily be made to, or even surpass, ASTM standards. So, your mate could have easily had the same problem with water contaminated petro-diesel.

In fact, your mates water problems could have come from anywhere. He might have left his filler cap open on a dewy night, for all we know. Nothing to do with bio-diesel at all.
Please confirm your facts prior to making such glib statements.
Its a real shame places like Cooma Diesel are spreading ill-informed rumours about a perfectly good product. Thanks for the tip! I wont be going anywhere where such rubbish is spouted.

Did you know Rudolph diesel designed his first motors to run on peanut oil...or any vegetable oil ?

http://www.tasmanenergy.com.au/biodiesel.htm
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FollowupID: 403083

Follow Up By: ACDC - Friday, Jan 20, 2006 at 19:13

Friday, Jan 20, 2006 at 19:13
Did you have a bad day at the office!
I was stating what was in the article and no he's not my mate.
touchy touchy!!
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FollowupID: 403222

Follow Up By: richopesto - Monday, Jan 23, 2006 at 13:35

Monday, Jan 23, 2006 at 13:35
Hiya ACDC,

Bad day? - only due to uninformed and uneducated responses.
Once again, one persons' experiences are sprayed around as 'gospel'.

You said: " Your pump will wear out quicker with bio-diesel. "
Nowhere in the Renew article does it say this. Nowhere.

You also extrapolated two statements in the article into one "fact":
"...apparently its the moisture in the fuel that turns to steam and damages the housing..."
Yes it does. But the manager of Cooma Diesel never said it was caused by bio-diesel.
He is paraphrased as saying:
1. "...moisture in the fuel turns to steam and damages the pump..."
And in an entirely seperate paragraph...
2. "...similar damage on another pump using bio-diesel..."

Yes, as I said, WATER in ANY fuel will cause damage. Having now read the article, I'd lay a pretty safe bet by the sounds of Vince Jones' experiences that he is making crap bio-diesel with a high water content. I could be wrong, but either way, BIO-DIESEL IS NOT THE PROBLEM, WATER IS.

There seems to be so many people with a malign for bio-diesel, propogated further by poorly researched and uneducated opinions which do nothing for accurate community awareness.

If you are going to make ill-judged remarks, always preface them with "I believe" or "I think", then you are not committing yourself that your are presenting "facts".
Apologies, If Im all steamed up ;-), I'm a diehard convert to bio-diesel and there is just so much rubbish being presented that its a crap fuel.
If it were no better than petro-diesel it would still be a preffered fuel simply due to its carbon neutrality (nil - minimal environmental impact) when used. For this reason alone, the argument for bio-diesel wins hands down.

But as a reader of Renew, I figure you are already on the 'good side' of the Earth. So, why aren't you using bio-diesel? ;-)

cheers
Richo
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FollowupID: 403735

Reply By: snow - Wednesday, Jan 18, 2006 at 12:00

Wednesday, Jan 18, 2006 at 12:00
Since the fuel pump relies upon clean diesel for lubrication is it possible that contaminated or dirty fuel or even lack of lube as a result of frequent running the tank dry be the cause?

My Hilux ('84) seals went at the same time as the low S fuel was introduced...BP footed the bill (upon proof of fuel purchase). On that occasion itwas only the top seal which was easy and cheap fix. Mid last year the internal seals went and the pump started destroying itself requiring a complete rebuild (1100) this appeared to be as a result of contaminated fuel etc
AnswerID: 149364

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