biodiesel info

Submitted: Thursday, Feb 23, 2006 at 23:04
ThreadID: 31100 Views:6267 Replies:7 FollowUps:27
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I was listening to radio national today and they had an interesting segment on biodiesel. Apparently we are a bit slow on the uptake of this fuel, a large percentage ( I can't remember the figures sorry) of the diesel sold in some European countries such as Germany, where they pay through the nose, is boidiesel. With our climbing diesel prices it is economically viable to make your own so it was said, they mentioned about 80 cents a litre using new vege oil and less using waste cooking oil, this was in WA. Sorry I can't give a more detailed sumary of the show as I was looking after the kids and can't multi task too well. You may find more info on the ABC web site. They did list a good biodiesel website and at least I got that down.
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Reply By: Member - Andrew W (SA) - Thursday, Feb 23, 2006 at 23:15

Thursday, Feb 23, 2006 at 23:15
Hi Warthog,

We are very slow - you are right.

You are right about everything.

There are a lot of ground level Australian groups - try Biofuels Forum.

Unfortunately the Australian industry is making a lot of biodiesel and selling it in (you guessed it) Europe. In fact, your tax payer dollars are providing grants to companies doing just that so that they can be funded to build their plants!

You can get Biodiesel in most states (20% biodiesel) and 100% biodiesel in SA and NSW although at limited outlets as of now.

I've been running it for 20K's mostly in my 100 series LC with no problems.

Ciao for now
Andrew.
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Follow Up By: warthog - Thursday, Feb 23, 2006 at 23:32

Thursday, Feb 23, 2006 at 23:32
Thanks Andrew, I'm interested in running it, but it's not available in Alice and I don't have the spare time or knowledge to make my own at the moment. Perhaps it's viable to freight it in in 44's?
There was an interesting show on 4 corners recently about fossil fuel co's influencing governmental policy. They are no doubt also busy behind they scenes slowing/eliminating the roll out of biodiesel. Hopefully when we move from here and I have a bit less on my plate I can make my own.
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Follow Up By: Member - TPM (SA) - Friday, Feb 24, 2006 at 00:44

Friday, Feb 24, 2006 at 00:44
G'Day Andrew ,

Where do they sell it in Adelaide ? Can you mix it with standard diesel with no problems ?
Just wondering if I filled up with the SD drove to Adel, had 1/2 a tank left.Filled up with BD and mixed it would it be ok ?

Cheers
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Follow Up By: Tim HJ61 (WA) - Friday, Feb 24, 2006 at 01:01

Friday, Feb 24, 2006 at 01:01
SAFF sell a blend.

Yes, you can mix it.

Tim
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Follow Up By: Member - TPM (SA) - Friday, Feb 24, 2006 at 01:11

Friday, Feb 24, 2006 at 01:11
Thanks Tim

Cool 61 series !

My old troopy had the 2H, still makes me weep to think I traded it in a moment of weakness :( 320 k on it and still going strong , tough as nails those motors, sorry gotta run cant type with red eyes !!.........
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Follow Up By: Member - Andrew W (SA) - Friday, Feb 24, 2006 at 07:45

Friday, Feb 24, 2006 at 07:45
SAFF sell B20 (20% Biodiesel) and call it Premium Diesel (it still meets the Diesel spec) at ALL SAFF outlets.

Their sites.

They also sell B100 (100% Biodiesel) during summer and a high content blend during winter (they call it Biodiesel) at their sites at Martins Plaza and Market Fuel Centre at Pooraka.

Where are you? You might be interested in the Adelaide Glycerine Cooperative.

Ciao for now
Andrew.
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Follow Up By: Member - TPM (SA) - Friday, Feb 24, 2006 at 17:20

Friday, Feb 24, 2006 at 17:20
Thanks Andrew

Central Yorkes or Croydon

I will definately check it out.
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Follow Up By: Member - George (WA) - Friday, Feb 24, 2006 at 22:32

Friday, Feb 24, 2006 at 22:32
Looks like there is only one outlet in WA - Mundrabilla. From Perth it will only take 2 days to get there and a couple of fills
Cheers
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Follow Up By: Member - Andrew W (SA) - Friday, Feb 24, 2006 at 22:35

Friday, Feb 24, 2006 at 22:35
Sorry George. Look, if you're coming this way drop by for a beer!
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Follow Up By: Member - George (WA) - Friday, Feb 24, 2006 at 22:43

Friday, Feb 24, 2006 at 22:43
Thanks Andrew, will do that but may be 12 months or more away
Cheers
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Follow Up By: Member - Jeff M (WA) - Friday, Feb 24, 2006 at 23:34

Friday, Feb 24, 2006 at 23:34
I'm running Biodiesel in the surf in Perth, I buy it in 44 Gallon drums from a guy in Bullsbrook. If you do a search on this site there is a thread with his number in it from a few weeks ago.
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Follow Up By: Tim HJ61 (WA) - Saturday, Feb 25, 2006 at 00:38

Saturday, Feb 25, 2006 at 00:38
So how's that supplier working out Jeff? It's been a few weeks now hasn't it?

BTW, I just picked up 120l of lovely cottonseed oil from my fishychippy friends. I pumped it out of their waste drums whilst still warm with my rotary drum pump, will filter it then use it.

Tim
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Follow Up By: Member - Jeff M (WA) - Saturday, Feb 25, 2006 at 10:33

Saturday, Feb 25, 2006 at 10:33
Well I ran it a few days on Biodiesel, but then my missus went up north for work so I've been using her company car ever since (free fuel is better than cheap fuel!!). She got back last night, so the surf will be fired back up again soon, I'm also going to Wedge next weekend, so that will be a good test for it.
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Follow Up By: Member - Jeff M (WA) - Saturday, Feb 25, 2006 at 10:40

Saturday, Feb 25, 2006 at 10:40
Actually I will ad one other thing... The surf is not a smokey diesel, well not since I removed the safari snorkel restrictor, put a decent exaust on it closed off the EGR and reguarly used Nulon Injector cleaner, in fact it very rarley make smoke unless I really give it a hiding at high revs and then it spits a small amount out.

However, it always blew a massive cloud of BLACK smoke on startup. Didn't matter if it was warm, cold, glowed or not glowed, half a turn of the engine to start or 5 turns of the engine to start it always did it. Seeings as 95% of the time it start within to turn of the engine I figured it was nothing to worry about and probally the ECU choking it or somthing to start it.

But on Biodisel it blows a very small cloud of a grey smoke that smells like fish and chips and you can varley see it unless you start it and then run around to the back and look for it.
That's gotta be a good thing...
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Follow Up By: Member - Andrew W (SA) - Saturday, Feb 25, 2006 at 18:22

Saturday, Feb 25, 2006 at 18:22
Hey Jeff,

If you let the glow plugs warm up by putting the ignition "on" before you turn the ignition to start (you may already, but in case you don't), you will reduce the smoke on starting and it should start easier.

Biodiesel is a much cleaner and burns much cleaner - typically white smoke totally non-toxic and which is probably just unburned biodiesel.

Ciao for now
Andrew.
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Reply By: warthog - Thursday, Feb 23, 2006 at 23:23

Thursday, Feb 23, 2006 at 23:23
Couldn't find the transcript yet but this one had a bit of info.
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Reply By: StephenF10 - Friday, Feb 24, 2006 at 09:35

Friday, Feb 24, 2006 at 09:35
I contacted Landrover Australia about using biodiesel in my TD5. Their reply, "Land Rover Australia does not recommend the use of biodiesel at all and the use of this product in your vehicle could have an effect on your new vehicle warranty."

I find it hard to believe that bio would have any detrimental effect, in fact it has greater lubricating properties, but there you are. I think that it's time vehicle manufacturers encouraged the use of biofuels instead of unecessarily frightening people off.

Stephen.
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Follow Up By: Member - Andrew W (SA) - Friday, Feb 24, 2006 at 11:36

Friday, Feb 24, 2006 at 11:36
they should have said:

fuel quality is an issue for your fuel supplier.

Talk to SAFF - they will give you a consumer warranty on their fuel.

I've never had to call on it, but they are retailing it, and fully aware of the Trade Practices and other obligations - I have spoken with them.

Ciao for now
Andrew.
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Follow Up By: Alan H - Friday, Feb 24, 2006 at 11:42

Friday, Feb 24, 2006 at 11:42
Good one Steve I was just going to contact the main stealer about making and using it in my Td5 and now don't have to. Maybe the filtration system isn't up to it for biodiesel and they're probably in league with the oil manufacturers anyway.
Apparantley if you make your own you have to pay excise to the fed government and no doubt the states would want to get their hands on a bit more of our hard earned as well.
Good incentive to motorists to cut back on the use of fossil fuels but we can expect nothing else from any of them.
Alan.
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Follow Up By: Member - Andrew W (SA) - Friday, Feb 24, 2006 at 12:01

Friday, Feb 24, 2006 at 12:01
There are people on the www.biofuelsforum.com running it in TD5s for a long time very happily.

I recommend you speak with them.

Excise issues are a bit of a problem in the make your own department but I am sure there are a lot of people making it under the radar.

Ciao for now
Andrew.
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Follow Up By: StephenF10 - Friday, Feb 24, 2006 at 12:02

Friday, Feb 24, 2006 at 12:02
Alan, I suspect the real reason is that they haven't bothered to test biodiesel and are covering themselves. I can see the reason for not approving home brew as there is no formal quality control, but commercially produced bio is becoming more readily available at the pump. If, as Andrew said, SAFF are giving a consumer warranty it should be good enough for the vehicle manufacturers to give commercial biodiesel the green light (or very good reasons why they cannot).

Stephen.
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Follow Up By: Alan H - Friday, Feb 24, 2006 at 12:08

Friday, Feb 24, 2006 at 12:08
Thanks for the info fellows. I'll follow it up and if viable and can make it to a high standard will give it a go.
I've always been a believer in avoiding paying tax whenever and will be again if possible so good luck to those that can.
Cheers.
Alan.
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Reply By: Mr Fawlty - Friday, Feb 24, 2006 at 11:20

Friday, Feb 24, 2006 at 11:20
I saw an interesting show on Foxtel sometime back where some Yank had a patent on a fuel that was powerded coal and diesel which had incredible potential. Not sure of all the details but the coal was pulverised to finer than talcum powder and had problems (as you do) with the coal spontaneously combusting and the addition of the diesel stopped this and also meant that the mix could be used in Deisels with little modification...
Some of us will recall how well coal (carbon) burns in sump oil in Jackeroo's with faulty Injector seals.....
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Reply By: Steve M - Friday, Feb 24, 2006 at 11:21

Friday, Feb 24, 2006 at 11:21
There seens to be conflicting information on the performance of biodiesel compared to petrodiesel.

From the ABC interview:-
"Adrian Lake: Because of the alcohol in it, biodiesel is oxygenated so it carries a little less energy than petro-diesel. You’d probably get between 8% and 12% less power than you do out of petro-diesel"

From the SAFF/Farmers fuel site:-
"Premium performance:Biodiesel provides a marked increase in combustion smoothness (anti-knock), resulting from its very high cetane content of over 50. Also, Biodiesel's oxygen content (11% w/w) provides better combustion - improving the efficiency of the engine. "

and
"Premium Diesel improves performance, torque, fuel economy & power. "

Anyone have any definitive info on performance??

Steve M

PS- the sooner we can get this into perth bowsers the better.
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Follow Up By: Member - Andrew W (SA) - Friday, Feb 24, 2006 at 11:59

Friday, Feb 24, 2006 at 11:59
SAFF experience has been my experience. Improves performance.

SAFF buy their fuel from Andrew Hill's Rutherford operation in NSW - Australian Biodiesel Industries I think and are very much interested in quality.

Biodiesel Association of Australia or Australian Biodiesel Consultancy or (Adrian Lake's mob) may not be producing fuel at their Gosford NSW plant to the same quality or he may have some other reason for keeping expectations low. Seems counter to everything I have read too.

Most of all it is a negligible contributor of greenhouse gases (net effect) and SAFF is involved in ensuring their operation is net zero by planting trees and the like.

There is a vibrant Perth Biodiesel community - just without a mainstream fuel option at the moment to my knowledge, but get in touch with them (through www.biofuelsforum.com) and see.

Ciao for now
Andrew.
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Follow Up By: cokeaddict - Saturday, Feb 25, 2006 at 08:31

Saturday, Feb 25, 2006 at 08:31
I agree with SAFF as well.
I have found nothing but improvements for my GQ running biodiesel.

I have posted these in here over the past few weeks, things like...
Smoother idling
more power low to mid range
engine running cooler
engine starts up much quicker

I am due for an oil change in around 800 kms, I am looking fwd to it as i am sure i will see some im provements in oil quality too. From waht i have heard from others using biodiesel for over 20,000 kms now, most agree the engine oil lubrictase the engine better for longer. Time will tell.

Ange
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Follow Up By: Eric from Cape York Connections - Saturday, Feb 25, 2006 at 10:41

Saturday, Feb 25, 2006 at 10:41
Andrew just had a look around your web site. Looks good.

All the best
Eric
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Reply By: Assegai - Friday, Feb 24, 2006 at 19:35

Friday, Feb 24, 2006 at 19:35
I run biodiesel in my Terracan and have no problems. Sounds a bit quieter if anything.

TPM on your way to Yorkes you can also get biodiesel at Port Wakefield SAFF which often is cheaper and missed because its on the out bound (from Adelaide) side.

Brad
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Reply By: sjp - Saturday, Feb 25, 2006 at 08:01

Saturday, Feb 25, 2006 at 08:01
i'dlike to know what amount of diesel iwould get from i ltr of pure veg oil(considering the cheapest is about $1.30./litre)and from used oil ,which i can get for nothing ,i just cant see it being worthwhile other then the satisfastion of not helping the cause of the diesel ripoff|||
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Follow Up By: cokeaddict - Saturday, Feb 25, 2006 at 08:35

Saturday, Feb 25, 2006 at 08:35
sjp, cant help u there mate but do some research, if u have access to used oil, ur way infront. Al u need now is some free time to make the stuff. I can assure u though, once ur set up, u will save heaps on fuel costs.

If ur interested....check this out http://www.sydneybiodiesel.com/

these guys have been making it for years, they r very helpful too. Might give u a better understanding of whats involved.

Ange
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Follow Up By: Member - Andrew W (SA) - Saturday, Feb 25, 2006 at 18:14

Saturday, Feb 25, 2006 at 18:14
Hi sjp,

You'd get about the same volume as pure veg oil and a little less than the same volume of waste veg oil but you do have to put in 25% methanol (some of this is recoverable but costs) and some catalyst - KOH or NaOH (Caustic soda) which is quite inexpensive.

Usual cost in Australia for no cost WVO including heating costs ends up being about $0.20-0.40 per litre.

Ciao for now
Andrew.
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Follow Up By: sjp - Sunday, Feb 26, 2006 at 00:11

Sunday, Feb 26, 2006 at 00:11
now doesent that sound good ,dunno if iam game to put it in the cruiser but ive got a couple of tractors ,1956 fordson and a backhoe in the same vintage that i will try on for a start
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Follow Up By: Member - Andrew W (SA) - Sunday, Feb 26, 2006 at 00:17

Sunday, Feb 26, 2006 at 00:17
They'll need synthetic (rather than natural rubber) fuel pipes/system ...

Best to check first ;-)
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Follow Up By: sjp - Sunday, Feb 26, 2006 at 06:52

Sunday, Feb 26, 2006 at 06:52
ohyea ,forgot about that ,the backhoe leaks enough gear oil as it is ,dont want the fuel pump to leak also,the pipes seem to be steel,just the pump gaskets i quess
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