Miracle Cures

Submitted: Monday, Mar 06, 2006 at 22:28
ThreadID: 31490 Views:2041 Replies:12 FollowUps:17
This Thread has been Archived
I see posts all the time for miracle cures for power/economy etc.

Having worked in the engine development, and operated probably the most sophisticated chassis dyno and emissions cell in Australia, I never saw an gizmo/additive or anything that works.

Note to all those who will say this works or that works consider this : having seen the amount of money that is spent on engine development, if it was that easy it would already be in the design.

There is one exception, you can sacrifice ONE of the following for the other - power, fuel economy, emissions.

KISS

Now I have put the cat amongst the pidgeons, lets here it. (Yes I have read the ranting on previous posts)

Steve

Back Expand Un-Read 0 Moderator

Reply By: Wayne (NSW) - Monday, Mar 06, 2006 at 22:43

Monday, Mar 06, 2006 at 22:43
Steve,

A turbo is a add on, and I think that they work.

Wayne
AnswerID: 159000

Follow Up By: Wayne (NSW) - Monday, Mar 06, 2006 at 22:51

Monday, Mar 06, 2006 at 22:51
Steve,

I would also say that they are more fuel efficient gives more power and are emission friendly.

Wayne
0
FollowupID: 413509

Follow Up By: Steve M - Monday, Mar 06, 2006 at 22:58

Monday, Mar 06, 2006 at 22:58
Yes I agree turbo work, but I was talking more about the things engine manufaturers dont use.

Another exception that can be sacrificed that I forgot is reliability.

Steve
0
FollowupID: 413513

Follow Up By: fisho64 - Monday, Mar 06, 2006 at 23:14

Monday, Mar 06, 2006 at 23:14
quote"Having worked in the engine development, and operated probably the most sophisticated chassis dyno and emissions cell in Australia, I never saw an gizmo/additive or anything that works.

Note to all those who will say this works or that works consider this : having seen the amount of money that is spent on engine development, if it was that easy it would already be in the design. unquote"

turbo is a good example of a "gizmo", fitted to practically every late model diesel nowadays as they are unlikely to pass emmission tests without.

but the real snakeoil etc is the hiclones etc.
however improvements in reciprocating engines now are likely to be small developments, variable valve timing, higher pressure injection etc rather than a sudden breakthru.
That is more likely to come from a different type of engine, yet to be seen.
0
FollowupID: 413518

Follow Up By: Scoey - Tuesday, Mar 07, 2006 at 09:53

Tuesday, Mar 07, 2006 at 09:53
I once read a sentence that I reckon is spot on when it comes to tuning engines. Of the three qualities (Cheap/Reliable/Powerful) you can only ever have two in an engine! So simple but so true!

Cheap & reliable won't be powerful,
Cheap & Powerful won't be reliable, and
Reliable & Powerful is never gonna be cheap!

Not an answer to a question, I know, but kinda still on topic! haha!

Cheers
Scoey!
0
FollowupID: 413554

Reply By: Member - Davoe (Widgiemooltha) - Monday, Mar 06, 2006 at 23:58

Monday, Mar 06, 2006 at 23:58
I think you missed 2 things you can sacrifice to get extra power or economy
1 is cost and the other is reliablity
Gas injection is supposed to give better power and economy but is expensive especially as it doesnt give you the complete benifits of lower cost gas as it supplements diesal not replaces it.
i am also unsure what effect it might have on reliability for a vehicle not desighned for it.
Otherwise i firmly believe the majority of stuff is in the same catogary as the 5 min fat blaster video. Hair regrowth clinics, Anti Wrinkle Cream etc etc In that they target what people want making it an easy sell. It has been going on forever and instead of the internet making people more wary with additional information rather they use it to spread the word of their miricles - No longer does the salesman have to ride into town with his boz of miricle elixers
AnswerID: 159016

Reply By: Member - Bware (Tweed Valley) - Tuesday, Mar 07, 2006 at 00:25

Tuesday, Mar 07, 2006 at 00:25
You are right . The above replies are about turbo diesels which are incorporated into modern designs. Therefore your argument has yet to be challenged. Irrelevent answers are endemic to sites like this; generally questions aren't answered
AnswerID: 159019

Follow Up By: Member - Coyote (SA) - Tuesday, Mar 07, 2006 at 08:05

Tuesday, Mar 07, 2006 at 08:05
So tell me what am I sacrificing if I upgrade to a 3 " mandrel bent exhaust and a 'tune up' for my 4.2 GU turbo diesel?
0
FollowupID: 413542

Follow Up By: Member - Andrew W (VIC) - Tuesday, Mar 07, 2006 at 10:27

Tuesday, Mar 07, 2006 at 10:27
"""""So tell me what am I sacrificing if I upgrade to a 3 " mandrel bent exhaust and a 'tune up' for my 4.2 GU turbo diesel?""""

Unless your getting it fitted and tuned for free would that be ecconony? ie extra cost???
0
FollowupID: 413555

Reply By: Member - Brian (Gold Coast) - Tuesday, Mar 07, 2006 at 08:49

Tuesday, Mar 07, 2006 at 08:49
Heres a thought.........

Steve M may NOT have been talking about turbo's.......

He might have been talking about the bolt-on add-ons.... things like FITCH, Hi-Clone etc.............

it's entirely possible I am wrong here...

Just a thought

Cheers

Brian
AnswerID: 159037

Follow Up By: Steve M - Tuesday, Mar 07, 2006 at 14:45

Tuesday, Mar 07, 2006 at 14:45
Yes, in a moment of lunacy after reading about catalysts/additives in this forum I vented my frustrations with this post. Maybe I should keep my thoughts to myself.

Steve M
0
FollowupID: 413614

Reply By: Robin - Tuesday, Mar 07, 2006 at 08:50

Tuesday, Mar 07, 2006 at 08:50
Hi Steve, I'm a pidgeon

I think their is a mechanism by which some things can work which your
statement does not cover.

Almost all weird things and reported results from the number of UFO's to
fuel savings in gizmo x , move back towards reality as the measurements
systems and control of results improve.

But, your statement implies that A/ the manufacturer has
incorporated proven features in car model X and-
B/ That those features are set/working at optimum.

Taking a practical example , say a Unichip operating in the
open loop mode.
It can improve things by ensuring the air/fuel mixture is optimum
in areas that the normal ECU control system doesn't significantly affect.

For cost reasons the manufacturer of my car (4800 petrol Nissan patrol)
does not incorporate an "open loop control system feedback loop"
and like most just use a closed loop oxy sensor system.
(p.s. I know the self contradiction in those terms - but its a good
layman analogy)
Now Nissan relies on fixed settings determined during development
which are an approximation and for saftey opt on the rich side.

By measuring the real world results on a given vehicle and
programming them back in for daily running all round imrovements
can be made.

Hence for cost and practically reasons - the best setup was
not originally used.

Herein lies the opportunity for practical improvement.

Robin Miller
AnswerID: 159038

Follow Up By: Steve M - Tuesday, Mar 07, 2006 at 14:40

Tuesday, Mar 07, 2006 at 14:40
Robin

I am interested in aftermarket ecu's or ecu add-on's such as you descibe as I have just bought a Navara (yet to pick it up) and after test driving think it has a lot more power but seems to have less torque than the 2.8d hilux it is replacing. I need to do a lot more than some test drives to confirm it has the torque I would prefer.

Having programmed ecu's as a job I am aware of the parameters that can be changed in the maps, and why, so the easiest adjustment to make is sacrifice power for torque which may suit me.

Not having looked at the Navara yet, you say this is a closed loop. Does this mean there are no sensors (if there are what type) and what additional sensors does the Unichip provide?

Steve M
0
FollowupID: 413613

Follow Up By: Robin - Tuesday, Mar 07, 2006 at 16:02

Tuesday, Mar 07, 2006 at 16:02
Hi Steve

Don't know at what level you have got involved and it can
be a big subject and an advantage if your into electronics.

If you haven't already, then reading the jacar book
of electronics for cars is great value, even if you never
build anything.

Haven't played with a new Navara, but got two mates who
got last of 3lt ones. These certainly lack torque down
low, ones now gone ditronic and happy, after a bit of a play
in the sand in which I showed no mercy.

The area where you can gain everywhere is using these
things to blueprint the open loop combustion cycle just like you
can with the more familar mechanical engine blueprinting.
Gains here are typically small 5-10% but real.

Many closed loop ECU control systems can to a degree
effectivily tune back out changes. But most vehicles
have both open and closed loop modes. Open usually
being fixed settings used when throttle is wide.
Because of this there are usually no additional
sensors needed and you rely on the skill of the
ECU programmer to get the correct fixed settings,
sounds like you might be better at commenting in this
field.

Seperately if your into electronics a bit it is possible
to defeat the factory settings to a degree in closed loop
mode, with add on control systems by changing the fundamental
reference value (i.e. effectively setting the OXY sensor
to other than 14.7).
But of course this is at the cost of another factor as per your
original post

Robin Miller
0
FollowupID: 413626

Reply By: glenno(qld) - Tuesday, Mar 07, 2006 at 10:14

Tuesday, Mar 07, 2006 at 10:14
What about the block of wood under the accelerator pedal .
AnswerID: 159050

Follow Up By: Scoey - Tuesday, Mar 07, 2006 at 10:32

Tuesday, Mar 07, 2006 at 10:32
Yeah, you're losing power on that one Glenno! ;-) Hehe but funnily enough, it's about the most credible fuel saving device on the market! haha!
Scoey
0
FollowupID: 413556

Reply By: OLDMAGPIE - Tuesday, Mar 07, 2006 at 11:08

Tuesday, Mar 07, 2006 at 11:08
three cheers for steve m,
AnswerID: 159056

Reply By: ev700 - Tuesday, Mar 07, 2006 at 11:12

Tuesday, Mar 07, 2006 at 11:12
Steve M

Next you will be criticising gadgets that impress a charge of ions all over the vehicle's paintwork to stop rust.

The aftermarket industry has to find faults to suit the products available for sale.

It is about leveraging the dollar out of the consumer's pocket into the entrepreneur's wallet.

It's a bit like bottled water: first you make consumers dissatisfied with what they've got (ie find 'problems') then you sell them the 'remedy'.

How else do you explain thousands of fourbies running around cities with massive steel bullbars? ; )
AnswerID: 159057

Follow Up By: Member - Norm C (QLD) - Tuesday, Mar 07, 2006 at 11:57

Tuesday, Mar 07, 2006 at 11:57
How else do you explain thousands of fourbies running around cities with massive steel bullbars? ; )

I think that is called a fashion accessory.

Norm C
0
FollowupID: 413565

Follow Up By: F4Phantom - Tuesday, Mar 07, 2006 at 12:03

Tuesday, Mar 07, 2006 at 12:03
Hey they use this system everywhere on static metal structures, poles, bridges, piers, ships (not static) and a few more. It works just like you say it does by replacing electons which are being reacted away. The thing is, the water is the electrlyte and does the circuit connecting. The idea is the same with a car but I think it would only work when half underwater as you cant conduct current without the conductor. So it aint so mystical as you allude but the principle does not work on vehicles and to me using the paint work does not sound good enough. Also the proof is in the pudding, if someone shows me proof it works, then who am I to disagree. Strictly speaking tho, science can disrove but not prove.
0
FollowupID: 413566

Follow Up By: Footloose - Tuesday, Mar 07, 2006 at 13:15

Tuesday, Mar 07, 2006 at 13:15
You can hit a roo in Canberras suburbs. You can drive your city 4wd for an hour from a city and have a collision with an large straying animal.
What are you suggesting ? That the Dpt of Bars set up fitting and removing checkpoints along roads leading into a city ? Tax owners of bars that have vehicles registered in city postcodes ? I don't think so.
0
FollowupID: 413576

Follow Up By: glenno(qld) - Tuesday, Mar 07, 2006 at 15:35

Tuesday, Mar 07, 2006 at 15:35
If i didnt have a bullbar how would i knock saplings over to form a new track in virgin scrub , run over stray dogs , where would i put my massive spotties , huge CB , UHf and HF ariels and winch that i never use ?
0
FollowupID: 413622

Follow Up By: Footloose - Tuesday, Mar 07, 2006 at 17:39

Tuesday, Mar 07, 2006 at 17:39
Glenno you could put the aerials and lights on the roof bar on your subi, then let your wife do the rest. All you'd need then would be a fax machine and ...oh sorry, wrong person. :))
0
FollowupID: 413641

Reply By: Member - Collyn R (WA) - Tuesday, Mar 07, 2006 at 12:45

Tuesday, Mar 07, 2006 at 12:45
Like many a marriage, passenger car and 4WD engine design tends to be a compromise between overall practicality and performance.

Because of this it is often possible to improve one aspect but usually at the expense of another. It is often readily possible to extract more power or torque but at trhe expense of fuel consumption and (commonly) the engine rev range across which the improvement is obtained. Even turbos may increase torque at middle and upper rpm, but decrease it at low rpm.

In my years at GM Research I never once found an add-on device, fluid, or any other mechanism that improved one parameter but not at the expense of another.
If we had, does anyone seriously believe we would not have used it??

In that industry, were one to make an overall (even) '1% improvement', one's Ph.D would be virtually in the next post!
Collyn Rivers
AnswerID: 159073

Reply By: Footloose - Tuesday, Mar 07, 2006 at 13:01

Tuesday, Mar 07, 2006 at 13:01
One factor seems to have been forgotten. The element of time. The design to sale cycle is often quite long. Should something that works appear, it could be on the market as an aftermarket for a while before it's noticed by the R@D Dpt. A good example of this was the electronic ignition and spark fatterners that were on the market well before they became everycar items.
All we have to do is to find something that works :((
AnswerID: 159079

Reply By: Gerhardp1 - Tuesday, Mar 07, 2006 at 14:54

Tuesday, Mar 07, 2006 at 14:54
I actually think this statement is incorrect.

Additives DO work, and manufacturers DO use them all the time.

Let's get scientific for a minnie - For a theory to be disproven, only ONE example needs to be given.

So - My limited slip diff will die without an additive in the oil for the clutches. I f I use normal diff oil, it's dead.

One example, theory out the window.
AnswerID: 159102

Follow Up By: Member - Bware (Tweed Valley) - Tuesday, Mar 07, 2006 at 16:24

Tuesday, Mar 07, 2006 at 16:24
Mmmmmm, I think the original post was refering to 'power/economy' which is directly related to engine performance not diffs or anything else.
0
FollowupID: 413630

Reply By: brd - Tuesday, Mar 07, 2006 at 22:03

Tuesday, Mar 07, 2006 at 22:03
Hi Steve

Firstly, what you say is probably correct as a VERY BROAD generalization, and this is exactly why there is so much scepticism to additives & gizmos. However, look long enough and hard enough and you will find some that do live up to their claims. Yes, even on new engines.

Secondly, all your engine testing would be done on as new engines, for obvious reasons, but none of us use new engines for very long, and eventually build up of deposits occur in numerous areas, which can cause deteriorated performance. Maintenance or lack of it, can be the cause, but not always. Sometimes engine duty cycle, (eg short runs, excessive idling) is to blame. The correct use of an appropriate product is the most cost effective means of correction. This will RESTORE both lost power and efficiency. Most dealers routinely use injector cleaners. Toyota have their own brand. I don't think they'd bother selling piddly amounts of a chemical just to boost their bottom line!

By comparison, the costs of mechanical repairs/cleaning, and the associated downtime are many, many times dearer. In addition, if an operating problem is causing the problem, why undergo mechanical repair at regular intervals, when preventative measures are available?

As far as comparing one product against another on a deposit fouled engine on the dyno, it is not possible. A clean, as new engine makes a good reference point for comparison. You can't get two identically fouled engines to compare test products. Also, you can't test two products on the same fouled engine, since any degree of cleaning alters the reference point. You can test one product before and after on a fouled engine, but how do you quantify the initial reference point, when there is no standard for a fouled engine? For most additives/devices dyno tests on a new engine do not demonstrate their intended purpose, so it's not surprising that you come to the conclusion that you do.

Finally, in fairness, I should point out that I am a chemical supplier, whose products are often reported on, in this forum, so I felt a need to challenge Steve's point of view. My apologies to all who might be offended by what might be perceived as biased comment.

Regards
Brid Walker
Cost Effective Maintenance (CEM)
AnswerID: 159211

Follow Up By: Steve M - Wednesday, Mar 08, 2006 at 22:10

Wednesday, Mar 08, 2006 at 22:10
What we did is get engines with partially fouled injectors that had done many hours in other types of testing , tested them to produce a baseline, then ran additives to try to achieve improvements, then tested them again. No measurable improvements were noted.

Hope this answers your question

Steve M
0
FollowupID: 414005

Sponsored Links

Popular Products (13)