DC-GENERATOR WITH DC AIR CONDITIONING??????

Submitted: Wednesday, Mar 08, 2006 at 17:19
ThreadID: 31547 Views:4598 Replies:15 FollowUps:32
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Hi there,
we are a innovation company in Australia and try to develope a
DC-generator to run DC-Airconditionings and other DC-devices.
We are just wondering if there is a market for that in Australia.
DC-Air conditionings cost around 4 to 5000 dollar, but the advantage
is, you do not need to run the Generator during the night which means
a quit night.
What do YOU think???
We need every feedback!
Cheers Daniel
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Reply By: Member -Dodger - Wednesday, Mar 08, 2006 at 17:42

Wednesday, Mar 08, 2006 at 17:42
Great idea about the DC air cons for vans and campers, as long as you can limit the power requirements to less than 5amps.
I used to have a handle on life, but it broke.

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AnswerID: 159345

Follow Up By: GaryInOz (Vic) - Wednesday, Mar 08, 2006 at 17:59

Wednesday, Mar 08, 2006 at 17:59
5 Amps eh....

5 x 12 = 60 watts total power (twice that of a 35 litre fridge)

Average small bedroom aircon 3/4-1 hp = 600-750 watts!!!

not going to happen.......................
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Reply By: Mike Harding - Wednesday, Mar 08, 2006 at 18:14

Wednesday, Mar 08, 2006 at 18:14
Daniel - I think: either you have no idea at all what you are talking about or you know a great deal more than me?

Mike Harding
AnswerID: 159352

Reply By: MartyB - Wednesday, Mar 08, 2006 at 18:25

Wednesday, Mar 08, 2006 at 18:25
You're a bit late, I have seen a DC inverter split system being used at Telstra remote CDMA sites. But I bet they use a bloody lot more than 5 amps.

Marty.
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Follow Up By: Member No 1- Wednesday, Mar 08, 2006 at 18:59

Wednesday, Mar 08, 2006 at 18:59
yes but thats just the dc compressor...all the rest is ac...you need ac to drive it all
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Follow Up By: Member - Davoe (Widgiemooltha) - Thursday, Mar 09, 2006 at 03:14

Thursday, Mar 09, 2006 at 03:14
underground refuge champers run aircons that can be switched over to run off DC but I just assumed they run through an inverter?
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Follow Up By: GaryInOz (Vic) - Thursday, Mar 09, 2006 at 12:51

Thursday, Mar 09, 2006 at 12:51
The compressor is simply run by a motor, and can be AC, DC, or mechanical. Think of your Engel linear compressor,the Waeco piston compressor, and the air con in the car driven from the crankshaft.

All the heat pump fans can similarly be whatever you want.
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Reply By: Dan0603 - Wednesday, Mar 08, 2006 at 18:30

Wednesday, Mar 08, 2006 at 18:30
Our 1hp (9000 BTU) DC-Air Conditioning need 470 watts which are 19.5 Amps.(24V)
If you have a 400 Ah battery, you can run the AC the whole night. Not a problem!
Other concerns????????
Appreciate your answer
AnswerID: 159355

Follow Up By: Mike Harding - Wednesday, Mar 08, 2006 at 18:46

Wednesday, Mar 08, 2006 at 18:46
Well...

470W at 12V is ~40A x (say) 10 hours = 400Ah.

Given that one should not discharge a battery below 50% (70% ideally) one would need 800Ah of battery power at 12V to run your system for one night. Do you have any idea how big, heavy and expensive 800Ah of battery is!? Not to mention the issues of recharging it.

Call me old fashioned if you will, but I'd use a ceiling fan or nothing at all and just get use to the climate in which I lived.

Mike Harding

PS. Why 0603 - that is a surface mount package size?
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Follow Up By: Member No 1- Wednesday, Mar 08, 2006 at 19:10

Wednesday, Mar 08, 2006 at 19:10
i would like to know what is going to run the aircon during the night...fridges are bad enough ...but aircons ?
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Follow Up By: Atropos - Wednesday, Mar 08, 2006 at 19:10

Wednesday, Mar 08, 2006 at 19:10
Hi Folks

19.5 amps at 24v, thats some powerfull battery pack, you would have to snaffle a couple of the "knife cells" that run the local telephone exchange and you would need a ute to carry them away...

If you must have air-con in a remote area you would be better advised to run a generator (with a very long power lead so you could not hear it)

and a small 240v air con split system can be bought for a very modest cost

No its a non starter IMHO (sorry)
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Follow Up By: Member - Davoe (Widgiemooltha) - Thursday, Mar 09, 2006 at 03:19

Thursday, Mar 09, 2006 at 03:19
FollowUp 2 of 3 posted 08 Mar 2006 at 18:10
Member No 1 posted this followup

i would like to know what is going to run the aircon during the night...fridges are bad enough ...but aircons ?

Mainy will be along in a minute to tell you
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Follow Up By: Member No 1- Thursday, Mar 09, 2006 at 07:54

Thursday, Mar 09, 2006 at 07:54
taa Davoe
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Follow Up By: Member - MrBitchi (QLD) - Thursday, Mar 09, 2006 at 08:58

Thursday, Mar 09, 2006 at 08:58
Not exactly going to be a mobile solution. I can just squeeze a 100 AH battery under the bonnet of the Paj. 400AH? Me thinks not.....

Put 4x100AH batteries in the camper? 4x25kg=100kg extra weight....
Not for me.
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Follow Up By: Bonz (Vic) - Monday, Mar 13, 2006 at 20:09

Monday, Mar 13, 2006 at 20:09
umm I am not one to quibble but 1 hp is 746 watts not anywhere near 470w that makes your battery as big as a trailer.
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Reply By: Member No 1- Wednesday, Mar 08, 2006 at 19:01

Wednesday, Mar 08, 2006 at 19:01
what is the compressor make and model
what are capacities in btu's or kWr
AnswerID: 159361

Reply By: Dan0603 - Wednesday, Mar 08, 2006 at 19:16

Wednesday, Mar 08, 2006 at 19:16
The DC-generator has 2.5 KWs and the DC-air conditioning has a cooling capacity of
9000 Btu which are around 2.65KW COOLING CAPACITY.
AnswerID: 159363

Follow Up By: Mike Harding - Wednesday, Mar 08, 2006 at 19:25

Wednesday, Mar 08, 2006 at 19:25
I think your numbers are a bit out Daniel but if you really can get 2650W out for a 2500 watts input I'll buy one whatever the cost.

Mike Harding
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Follow Up By: Atropos - Wednesday, Mar 08, 2006 at 19:29

Wednesday, Mar 08, 2006 at 19:29
DC-generator??? what is the power source of this "generator"

A 9000BTU split aircon system (240v ac) can be bought for about $300 from K-mart and a petrol generator to run it for about the same price (Aldi had one last week 2.5k from memory for $299 ) .. so why would I want to spend $5000 on a dc system..

If noise is a problem its nothing that 100meters of extention lead wont fix

Sorry Dan, I dont see it being a winner...

Perhaps you might like to tell us some more details so we can understand better

Regards
John
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Follow Up By: Member No 1- Thursday, Mar 09, 2006 at 08:04

Thursday, Mar 09, 2006 at 08:04
mike...input kilowatts is not the same as output kilowatts

refigeration duty is generally expressed as kW but it is really kWr ....kilo-Watts refrigeration
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Follow Up By: Member No 1- Thursday, Mar 09, 2006 at 08:05

Thursday, Mar 09, 2006 at 08:05
mike...input kilowatts is not the same as output kilowatts

refrigeration duty is generally expressed as kW but it is really kWr ....kilo-Watts refrigeration
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Follow Up By: GaryInOz (Vic) - Thursday, Mar 09, 2006 at 12:57

Thursday, Mar 09, 2006 at 12:57
Stop right there.

air conditioning does not invole the creation of heat/cold, it is simply the transfer of heat energy from one area (inside your hot lounge room) to another area (the outside unit)

I have a split system aircon that is 1500 watt (2hp motor), but does 3500 watt heating and 3700 watt cooling. It is MOVING heat, not creating it.
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FollowupID: 414118

Follow Up By: Member No 1- Thursday, Mar 09, 2006 at 13:40

Thursday, Mar 09, 2006 at 13:40
yep you are right gary...all airconditioning or refrigeration does is to shift heat from one spot to another
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Reply By: Lone Wolf - Wednesday, Mar 08, 2006 at 19:34

Wednesday, Mar 08, 2006 at 19:34
you is good inovasion company but we r not wanting cold airs in sleeps because we are very hard pepoles here and we do not like be called wimps to air condishion in our camp or other men think we are camp.

good luk

Woolfy
AnswerID: 159371

Follow Up By: Atropos - Wednesday, Mar 08, 2006 at 19:39

Wednesday, Mar 08, 2006 at 19:39
Hi Woolfie

The "Yanks" all have air-con in their tents when they go to war.. and roast turkey dinners....

Must be making them soft.....

But as long as "The beer" is cold we should not complain :-)
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Reply By: Dan0603 - Wednesday, Mar 08, 2006 at 19:44

Wednesday, Mar 08, 2006 at 19:44
I just checked it, the cooling capacity is almost 3000 watts.
But the air conditioning needs just 470 watts ELECTRICAL power.
That is different do cooling capacity.
Anyhow, the advantage is, that the generator is fixed in your motorhome, and you
don't need to switch it on or to refill it, cause it starts automatic and uses the diesel tank of your vehicle.
The other advantage is, that the aircon runs of your battery with a much higher efficiency rate than AC Air conditionings. That means you don't need to care to hide your generator and no refilling anymore.
AnswerID: 159373

Follow Up By: Atropos - Wednesday, Mar 08, 2006 at 19:51

Wednesday, Mar 08, 2006 at 19:51
So what you are talking about is a diesel powered motor driving a dc alterator suppling power for a dc air-con, alternator charges batteries and air-con connected to battery....

why not have the diesel motor driving an a/c genset then you can run the whole camp of it....

A built in gen-set in a camper van would be ok but no one is going to pay an extra $5k for such a system

IMHO sorry
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Reply By: Dan0603 - Wednesday, Mar 08, 2006 at 20:06

Wednesday, Mar 08, 2006 at 20:06
With our system you don't need to run a generator during the night. AC air cons need a generator.
AnswerID: 159378

Follow Up By: Atropos - Wednesday, Mar 08, 2006 at 20:11

Wednesday, Mar 08, 2006 at 20:11
This of course depends on the size and capacity of battery storage, I think thats the "problem" with your concept, batteries are large and heavy, thats the reason we dont see many electric cars, I think you would find that your system would need the diesel to kick in every hour to charge the batteries...

All this complicates matters ...

Come up with a fuel cell to run the thing and it might fly, but with battery technology as it is , I think you have a problem
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FollowupID: 413965

Follow Up By: kesh - Wednesday, Mar 08, 2006 at 20:37

Wednesday, Mar 08, 2006 at 20:37
Dan. We have a big, big tent. When cooling needed we say "punkah, wallah" and he pull punkah all night and we sleep cool. Very quiet and peace, like.
Is this what you have in mind?
Cool, eh?

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Follow Up By: Atropos - Wednesday, Mar 08, 2006 at 20:46

Wednesday, Mar 08, 2006 at 20:46
I think its time for a cup of cha... (tea)

Chawalla himelf
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Reply By: Jimbo - Wednesday, Mar 08, 2006 at 20:53

Wednesday, Mar 08, 2006 at 20:53
Air Conditioning running from a 12 volt battery?????????

Spare me.

It is not possible.

Do the Maths (not "Math').

Unless of couse you are planning to travel with a Pantech full of batteries.
AnswerID: 159388

Follow Up By: agsmky - Wednesday, Mar 08, 2006 at 21:25

Wednesday, Mar 08, 2006 at 21:25
Don't you have A/C in your car.....

Andrew
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Follow Up By: fisho64 - Thursday, Mar 09, 2006 at 03:01

Thursday, Mar 09, 2006 at 03:01
DAHH
the AC in your car doesnt run on 12 volt- only the compressor clutch does, and the compressor runs off the V belts and crankshaft pulley.
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FollowupID: 414045

Follow Up By: GaryInOz (Vic) - Thursday, Mar 09, 2006 at 13:03

Thursday, Mar 09, 2006 at 13:03
.....and pulls about 5 hp (= 3700 watts) off the engine just to keep your car cool. That's withoutth current of the electric clutch and the twofans (inside vehicle/in front of radiator)
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Reply By: techo2oz - Wednesday, Mar 08, 2006 at 21:22

Wednesday, Mar 08, 2006 at 21:22
G'day Dan0603,
I think the quintessential question is, if such an expensive device (both to acquire and to run) is required for people to escape to "the bush" or other out of the way places in our beautiful country, then why bother going.

I think that if that sort of paraphernalia is required to maintain creature comforts, it would be best to save your money, let someone else (who enjoys the experience) slog it out, film it then distribute it on film or DVD. Then you can stay at home with all the creature comforts and no doubt full multimedia viewing with huge plasma and air conditioning to boot. When you then get up in the morning you won't have to worry about getting charge back into batteries to ensure no damage is done. Nor will you have to worry about the gasses given off the batteries from such high discharge then charge cycles. Nor the topping up of electrolyte ....

Personally, I don't think there would be a large enough market to make it viable.

Cheers
AnswerID: 159398

Reply By: russ36 - Wednesday, Mar 08, 2006 at 23:34

Wednesday, Mar 08, 2006 at 23:34
to offer feedback for your research....only probably 10-20 % of australia requires air con at night for a comfortable sleep but only during 1-2 months of the year. and by midnight its time to turn it off because it gets too cold and noisy. so ,when its time to turn off the genny for a peacefull night ,say 7- 8 pm. there is only a few hrs of uncomfortable heat to deal with......heaps of us are already using honda gennies and 1/2 hp household air- cons[quiet, economical,effective, easy]
AnswerID: 159427

Reply By: Member - John (Vic) - Thursday, Mar 09, 2006 at 00:16

Thursday, Mar 09, 2006 at 00:16
Sounds like a Troll who has a few on the line.
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Follow Up By: Atropos - Thursday, Mar 09, 2006 at 08:41

Thursday, Mar 09, 2006 at 08:41
I dont think it was a "troll" I think it was just someone who thought he had a good idea but perhaps did not think it through enough.

Most caravans these days come with an air-con option, so there is a demand there for air-con, however the concept that Dan described was flawed due to the requirment of massive battery capacity to try to run the system overnight without charging, and also by its cost.

I think however that most campers as opposed to caravaners find the best way to beat the heat is to have a "cold one" around the camp fire

But if you are desparate to get cool a good tip is to put your feet in a bucket of water , you will be amazed at how much that helps.

Oh well the thread made for some entertainment on an otherwize dull night

Best regards
John
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Follow Up By: Member - John (Vic) - Thursday, Mar 09, 2006 at 09:24

Thursday, Mar 09, 2006 at 09:24
If your assumption is correct then maybe he should start a development company that is keen to develop bigger buckets.
It may make more sense than the rubbish he goes on with here.
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Follow Up By: Mike DiD - Thursday, Mar 09, 2006 at 13:40

Thursday, Mar 09, 2006 at 13:40
"Dan0603 replied to the question
I just checked it, the cooling capacity is almost 3000 watts.
But the air conditioning needs just 470 watts ELECTRICAL power. "

- after reading this, I decided not to waste any more time on this thread.

Mike
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Follow Up By: Dan0603 - Thursday, Mar 09, 2006 at 15:01

Thursday, Mar 09, 2006 at 15:01
Hey Mike,
I really don't know what is wrong with this figures, I know the
Air conditioning unit is unbelievable efficient with a EER of around 19.
Please tell me why I am wrong?
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Follow Up By: Member - John (Vic) - Thursday, Mar 09, 2006 at 15:07

Thursday, Mar 09, 2006 at 15:07
Dan you need to check your spelling.

"Air conditioning unit is unbelievable efficient with a EER of around 19"

It should read...

"Air conditioning unit is unbelievable efficient with a BEER at around 1900 hrs"
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Follow Up By: Mike DiD - Thursday, Mar 09, 2006 at 18:02

Thursday, Mar 09, 2006 at 18:02
"unbelievable efficient "

- exactly my point. Bye

Mike
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Follow Up By: Bonz (Vic) - Monday, Mar 13, 2006 at 20:17

Monday, Mar 13, 2006 at 20:17
John he doesnt need a development company he has a innovation company

Six munce ago I cudnt spell Injunier and now I are one.
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Reply By: Redback - Thursday, Mar 09, 2006 at 13:10

Thursday, Mar 09, 2006 at 13:10
I think Honda make a small genny that runs 12v stuff, it has a flexable exhaust that you can put in a small can (ie, coke can) and bury if i remember correctly, that might run it.

Was really quiet when you buried the exhaust.

Baz.
AnswerID: 159493

Reply By: Member - Oldplodder (QLD) - Thursday, Mar 09, 2006 at 17:57

Thursday, Mar 09, 2006 at 17:57
Sounds expensive to me.

That is why when we travel we head north in winter - cooler.
Let alone missing the floods.
Sitting in the aircon watching a flooded creek is not my idea of a holiday :-)

$5000.00 pays for a lot of fuel, will even pay for a 8 week trip for us including fuel.

And yes, I have lugged those 40kg 2V forklift/telstra batteries, but not too often.
6 of them for 12V would be heavy.
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