Places and ExplorOz Image Library

Submitted: Thursday, Mar 23, 2006 at 17:30
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Hi all,

This information will come out in the next newsletter however I thought I would pass it on early via the forum and get some feedback.

With the advent of Places it appears that we are building one of the first geo-referenced image libraries which contains Australian landmarks and tourism images. During our research of the Places images we became aware of a number of sites that "apparently" have images available for a fee. Most of them are rubbish or are very general. So we have decided to proceed with the places image library in such a fashion as to share the opportunity to generate a return on images you supply to the library.

As of now all places images have had a copyright notice overlaid to reduce/remove the ability for people to just download the image and use it without permission (as we already know this has happened - it is a pity to have to do this but seems to be the best way to protect our interests). We will add a message on the image display screens to advise people of the commercial costs of reuse of the images we have in the library (this will be based on resolution & size of the master image which you upload to the library). If someone wants to use an image we will return 50% of the nett revenue received to the submitter of the photo.

All the mechanics of this have not been built however I just wanted to gauge some feedback from those people who have submitted or would consider submitting images under this type of arrangement. All feedback on this topic welcome.
David (DM) & Michelle (MM)
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Reply By: Atropos - Thursday, Mar 23, 2006 at 17:43

Thursday, Mar 23, 2006 at 17:43
Hi David,

Are we able to submit places for inclusion?

regards
John
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Follow Up By: ExplorOz Team - David - Thursday, Mar 23, 2006 at 17:56

Thursday, Mar 23, 2006 at 17:56
John,

Yes this feature is being developed at the moment. I am working very hard on it, I just have a few issues with the validation checking of the data and the options to allow editing of existing information. I do not want to have the data sabotaged (by acceident or intention) so I need to have a load of checks in place when places are added. I am hoping the add of places will be done in a few days, I only have a fews hours left today but will have a good go at it.
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Follow Up By: Atropos - Thursday, Mar 23, 2006 at 17:58

Thursday, Mar 23, 2006 at 17:58
Hi David,

Yes understood keep up the good work..

I think if you coud find someway to include a link to this it might be usefull.

http://www.toiletmap.gov.au/

One never knows if one is going to get "caught short"

regards
john
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Reply By: Old Scalyback & denny - Thursday, Mar 23, 2006 at 17:48

Thursday, Mar 23, 2006 at 17:48
goodday david
that sounds like a fair deal to me as i often wonder about the images we post

steve
AnswerID: 162515

Follow Up By: ExplorOz Team - David - Thursday, Mar 23, 2006 at 18:04

Thursday, Mar 23, 2006 at 18:04
Steve,

Images you post have never been re-used by us without first seeking permission to do so. So up till now we "ExplorOz" have never re used anything (cannot be sure if images loaded here have not been copied and psted by others however) without asking.

We still have not installed any protection on rig pics or gallery pics however we could if you wanted it. Though on these images we throw away most of the image quality when you upload it. The image upload program resizes and reduces the Rig & Gallery pics down to an almost un-usable quality (now when I say un-usable I really mean printed media).

On the places system we take the image as supplied and store it, then we make smaller samples which are used for the output on the site. Having said this if you upload a lower quality image (resolution I mean not the photograph itself) then it will not be made available for re-use as we really need images of high quality if peope will be interested in re-use.

I hope this makes sense.
David (DM) & Michelle (MM)
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Follow Up By: Old Scalyback & denny - Thursday, Mar 23, 2006 at 18:51

Thursday, Mar 23, 2006 at 18:51
goodday david
are we able to add to eg caravan parks or do we send the info to you to edit and add as time permits

ps (dont read this ruth) still nothing on birdsville c/p
have to rely on the adds on here

steve
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Follow Up By: ExplorOz Team - David - Thursday, Mar 23, 2006 at 19:54

Thursday, Mar 23, 2006 at 19:54
Steve,

I have almost finished the first version of Place add - it is really a hard piece of code. It will be loaded in the next 30 mins, if I stop answering the forum.

I will be working on Edit after V1 of the New program is loaded. Will be back soon to tell you.

David (DM) & Michelle (MM)
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Follow Up By: ExplorOz Team - David - Thursday, Mar 23, 2006 at 20:16

Thursday, Mar 23, 2006 at 20:16
Place Add is now available. Please have a go and let me know if you have any problems with the screens or messages.

It is at the bottom of the pages in the Places System.
David (DM) & Michelle (MM)
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Reply By: Wombat - Thursday, Mar 23, 2006 at 18:36

Thursday, Mar 23, 2006 at 18:36
"If someone wants to use an image we will return 50% of the nett revenue received to the submitter of the photo."

Who sets the value of each particular image?
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Follow Up By: ExplorOz Team - David - Thursday, Mar 23, 2006 at 19:45

Thursday, Mar 23, 2006 at 19:45
Paul,

As per the comment in the initial post.

"We will add a message on the image display screens to advise people of the commercial costs of reuse of the images we have in the library (this will be based on resolution & size of the master image which you upload to the library)."

So if the image is 300 dpi and a certian size it would be worth X if 600 dpi and a size then Y. As metentioned this has also not been fully determined.
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Follow Up By: Member - Mike DID - Friday, Mar 24, 2006 at 08:35

Friday, Mar 24, 2006 at 08:35
A way of measuring ""image detail" that avoids having to quote both size and dpi, is to quote the number of megapixels in the photo.

Mike
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Follow Up By: Wombat - Friday, Mar 24, 2006 at 10:21

Friday, Mar 24, 2006 at 10:21
So what you are proposing is a simple, royalty free, flat fee structure based purely on image resolution, regardless of whether I use the image on a short run, in store point of sale poster or the front page of a multi-million run, national, or international magazine. Is this correct?
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Follow Up By: ExplorOz Team - David - Friday, Mar 24, 2006 at 12:10

Friday, Mar 24, 2006 at 12:10
Maybe and maybe not - I am not proposing anything in detail at this stage. As I have said I am getting feedback and gaining some understanding of the requirement from the site users some of whom have already uploaded images and some who may or may not be prepared to do the same. As yet there is NO structure in place.
David (DM) & Michelle (MM)
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Reply By: greydemon - Thursday, Mar 23, 2006 at 19:06

Thursday, Mar 23, 2006 at 19:06
Hi David,

I already have images with a stock library and have had a few sales. I can confirm for members that 50% of the fee for the photographer is standard. The fee itself depends on the use to which the image is to be put. Main factors are the size of the image and the circulation. Placement can also have an influence, for example the front cover of a magazine is worth more than an inside page. Limited issue usages such as souvenir coasters or calendars bring in much less than magazines and books. Low Res images can be used on websites but are of no use for print media and similar.

Until fairly recently only slide images would be accepted, with medium or large format prefered, now digital is OK but high resolution is required. For a while I got away with using a 6.3 megapixel SLR camera but have recently had to upgrade to an 8.1 megapixel to produce the required quality (Canon 20D).

Most photographers have hundreds of images with their stock library/libraries, about 10 years ago when I started the conventional wisdom was that on average you could expect to earn $1.00 per image per year. With inflation that is probably now $1.25 !

Of course, you can get lucky, a friend installed his pool on the proceeds of a series of images taken at the local zoo ( he had special access, the shots couldn't jhave been taken from the public area)

Have fun but don't expect to get rich.

Nick

AnswerID: 162532

Follow Up By: Willem - Thursday, Mar 23, 2006 at 20:41

Thursday, Mar 23, 2006 at 20:41
Greydemon

Interesting.

Ten years ago we sold sold a number of trannies to a very well known Publishing House at an agreed value of $40 each passing copyright to the new owner. This value was low at that time as the publisher took quite a number of photos.
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Follow Up By: greydemon - Thursday, Mar 23, 2006 at 23:03

Thursday, Mar 23, 2006 at 23:03
Selling copyright is something I would normally only agree to for a) a lot of money, or b) for non-profit organisations ( sporting clubs my kids are involved in for example).

The normal procedure is for the photographer to retain the copyright and the user pays for use. Commissioned photos are a bit different as you are paid an agreed fee and expenses for your expertise up front and are usually shooting a subject provided by the hirer - company shots for board reports for example.

The comment elsewhere about paying for images in advance would never work - there just isn't enough money around in this business. The stock library, in this case Exploroz, really just acts as an agent, providing the shopwindow for you to display your wares. There is a lot of work in assessing, cataloguing and sending out images and then following up with invoicing and passing on payment to the photographer so the agent earns their 50%.

The key to running a stock library is quality, quality, and quality.

Nick
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Follow Up By: Wombat - Friday, Mar 24, 2006 at 11:06

Friday, Mar 24, 2006 at 11:06
You've taken the 3kg hammer and clobbered that little sucker right on the head, Nick. May I suggest that from a client's perspective, as well as quality of the images being paramount, other important factors for a successful stock library are easy access to the appropriate images. They must be catalogued in a manner whereby they can accessed, analysed and compared easily.
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Reply By: Member - John L G - Thursday, Mar 23, 2006 at 19:54

Thursday, Mar 23, 2006 at 19:54
David

That seems fair to me although I wonder if this access to a $ return on the image should be restricted to fully paid up members of the site.

It would seem to me to be a way to value add the worth of membership
AnswerID: 162538

Reply By: Bonz (Vic) - Thursday, Mar 23, 2006 at 20:18

Thursday, Mar 23, 2006 at 20:18
Sounds like a good arrangement to me David
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Reply By: Willem - Thursday, Mar 23, 2006 at 20:48

Thursday, Mar 23, 2006 at 20:48
David

My opinion is that any photos you display in your Library must be bought by EO(including copyright) from the original owner.

Now this would not normnally be possible, financially. So you will have to set a benchmark as to what you are prepared to pay per photo sold. The photos may reside in your library without payment to the owner until such time as it is sold. You may then make your profit on such a sale which need not be disclosed to anyone.
AnswerID: 162552

Follow Up By: ExplorOz Team - David - Thursday, Mar 23, 2006 at 21:03

Thursday, Mar 23, 2006 at 21:03
Willem,

I do not get it - sort of. You say I should pay upfront then say pay per photo sold. I may be miss reading it or something. Basically I am offering people the abilty to load images for use in the Places system and the oportunity to receive a reward if someone out in the world decides to use the image. I will be loading around 10,000 images from our personal library and if someone what to use one then I will make the same offer of 50% to me and 50% to the business.

If I needed to pay for the images up front the system would not be possible financially. However I want others to be able to share in any future benifit that we may be able to make from the library itself. There are heaps of people out there that have been loading images and do not care about the re-use however I just want to be able to offer some incentive to load images to the system.

As I say I am just after ideas and feedback on the issue.
David (DM) & Michelle (MM)
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Follow Up By: Willem - Friday, Mar 24, 2006 at 08:51

Friday, Mar 24, 2006 at 08:51
David

You misunderstood me.

I suggested a benchmark price per photo including copyright IF and WHEN the photo is sold out of YOUR library.

Example: Member X approaches you with 100 images. You pick 30 which you regard as saleable. The rest you delete into cyberspace. You agree with said Member that you will store the images on your database at no cost and that you will pay pay him/her $00 per image WHEN the image is sold to a 3rd party including or excluding copyright. This leaves you with the advantage of making a profit at your discretion.

The scene has changed dramatically with digital photos. In the past you would sell a transparency(tranny aka slide) to a client with or without copyright for an agreed fee.You then had the transparency over to the buyer. These days the image is already there in you computer. If you do not wish to keep the photo then ethically you would delete it but there is nothing stopping you from storing it for a long time.

My thoughts.
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Follow Up By: Wombat - Friday, Mar 24, 2006 at 10:53

Friday, Mar 24, 2006 at 10:53
"These days the image is already there in you computer. If you do not wish to keep the photo then ethically you would delete it but there is nothing stopping you from storing it for a long time."

Firsty, simply storing an image on your computer is not an infringement of copyright. Only when a photograph is used for commercial gain does the question of ownership become an issue. I could dowload every picture on ExplorOz (other than Nudie's rig pic, because it's just too ugly) without any fear of prosecution unless I was to use them for monetary gain.

Usually the images that can be dowloaded for free from photo libraries are only low resolution and therefore able to be used only for layout purposes, so the image is not already there in your computer. Upon approval of a layout a price is determined for the use of the image based on many factors including copyright ownership, potential exposure, the length of the campaign, rarity and any exclusive publishing rights.
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Reply By: Rodos - Thursday, Mar 23, 2006 at 21:39

Thursday, Mar 23, 2006 at 21:39
I think you have lost some of the value of the service you were offering. The copyright image in the middle of the picture makes it look silly. I want to look at a nice picture of the place, show it to my wife and kids and say hey, lets go there. Now its got a silly copyright text slap bang in the middle. Sure people could crop them and load them onto their own site but lets not destroy the main game. Is the main game for people to be able to share photos or is the main game to protect the photos that people are happy to load freely to your site from other sites and make a buck from it if they want to.

I say this as someone who has loaded photos and will be happy to load more.

My vote, move the copyright statement to bottom of the image.
AnswerID: 162564

Follow Up By: ExplorOz Team - David - Friday, Mar 24, 2006 at 01:24

Friday, Mar 24, 2006 at 01:24
I must admit I do agree with you on this point, I am just in the process of showing the options and gauging opion. Thanks for this feedback.
David (DM) & Michelle (MM)
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Follow Up By: ExplorOz Team - David - Friday, Mar 24, 2006 at 01:32

Friday, Mar 24, 2006 at 01:32
Rodos,

I agreed enough that I have moved it. I think you are right it is much better to be able to see the image and relly on the fact that most people would hopefully do the right thing in terms of seeking permision etc.
David (DM) & Michelle (MM)
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Follow Up By: Rodos - Friday, Mar 24, 2006 at 08:13

Friday, Mar 24, 2006 at 08:13
David. you listened to feedback, made up your own mind and actioned. Wow. This might make me consider becoming a member this year. Sanity can be hard to find ...
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Reply By: Member - Doug T (QLD) - Friday, Mar 24, 2006 at 00:51

Friday, Mar 24, 2006 at 00:51
Hi David
I get about a fair bit , If you need a photo or a GPS reading for a creek or anywhere out here in the NW Qld just ask and If i can OK If I can't I'll let you know.The web site is unreal,though it contains a wealth of information ,the amazing part is ..every thing /link works, well done.
Doug
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Reply By: ExplorOz Team - David - Friday, Mar 24, 2006 at 01:27

Friday, Mar 24, 2006 at 01:27
Oh one little addtional bit if info - you can now create new places there is a new place button at the end of the index and search pages. So if yo know of a place and it is not in the system please feel free to add it.

BTW: If you do not know the GPS pos etc that is fine we can add it later. You only need to know the Name, State and type of point to load a place. It wouldbe best to have the position nut if you do not know do not guess someone will most likley know and update it donw the track.
David (DM) & Michelle (MM)
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Follow Up By: Wayne (NSW) - Friday, Mar 24, 2006 at 08:22

Friday, Mar 24, 2006 at 08:22
You can tell when David has been working late.

The mind is working faster than the fingers.

Wayne
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Reply By: Member No 1- Friday, Mar 24, 2006 at 08:28

Friday, Mar 24, 2006 at 08:28
David,
will members of EO be able to use free without infringement of copy right?
AnswerID: 162605

Follow Up By: Wombat - Friday, Mar 24, 2006 at 10:29

Friday, Mar 24, 2006 at 10:29
Richard,

The copyright always belongs to the original photographer unless he signs it over to another party. ExplorOz would not be able to offer imunity from prosecution on any photographic submissions except their own personal shots.
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Follow Up By: Member No 1- Friday, Mar 24, 2006 at 10:54

Friday, Mar 24, 2006 at 10:54
Oh does that mean my rig pic has to have a c in a circle to prevent unauthorised use ...such as dart board
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Reply By: Member - Sam (NSW) - Friday, Mar 24, 2006 at 09:21

Friday, Mar 24, 2006 at 09:21
How does the copyright work in this situation? Is the original artist/photographer still the original copyright owner or is the copyright transfered to EO or the purchaser?

I am guessing the copyright is still held by the photographer/artist.
AnswerID: 162614

Follow Up By: Member - Sam (NSW) - Friday, Mar 24, 2006 at 11:04

Friday, Mar 24, 2006 at 11:04
Ignore that post. I didn't read what was written in the previous follow-up by Wombat.
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Reply By: Member - David 0- Friday, Mar 24, 2006 at 23:32

Friday, Mar 24, 2006 at 23:32
David

It is a nice touch, the whole place photo thing. I am not sure what demand you have for images, but there are very good stock libraries on the net, with extensive searching and cataloging capabilities. Still it may be worth a shot.

I personally would not submit photographs for sale under a royalty free arrangement unless for significantly higher gain than for a royalty arrangement, and then only after very careful consideration.

Though I already submit images to a stock library, I would consider submitting some images to such a scheme in order to raise my profile withing a specific genre, if I thought it worthwhile, but not royalty free.

Keep up the good work, and hope this helps.

PS Photo in competition past-Running creek appears to be on the coast but the map shows it inland???

Dave O
AnswerID: 162755

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