Best way to charge car batteries......some advice please.

Submitted: Wednesday, Apr 05, 2006 at 13:37
ThreadID: 32545 Views:4994 Replies:11 FollowUps:15
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G'day,

I'm new to this forum. We have recently purchased a new camper trailer and plan to start going on regular trips with our two kids (1.5yrs and 3yrs old). Our maiden voyage was a month ago - not far, just up to Cairns and we stayed on a unpowered site in a caravan park. After running out of battery power after 3 days we ended up going back home one day early. We thought they would have lasted for 5 days.

Now, we do have a dual battery set up in the 4wd. The camper has it's own 100amp hour battery which is about to be hooked up in serial to a blue top (100 amp hour) Orbital deep cycle. We are going to purchase a anderson plug so that if these run out we can also hook up to the dual system of the car. I imagine this should get us one weeks worth of power (at least) running only standard stuff like 60lt engel fridge, lights, water pump and not much else really.

On top of all this we are considering purchasing some form of battery charger or generator - I guess to keep the batteries topped up if we want to stay in one spot for an extended period. My question is what is the best thing to go for?

Reading previous posts on here Yamaha & Honda generators come highly recommended and also the Christie Battery Charger. So which would be more suitable to our use - the Christie, which I imagine is purely for charging a battery & quickly, or a Generator which will take alot longer to charge a battery but is more versatile?

Any feedback would be appreciated & also interested on what setups other people have.

Outa Bounds
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Reply By: Member - Paul P (Bris) - Wednesday, Apr 05, 2006 at 14:29

Wednesday, Apr 05, 2006 at 14:29
Greetings

A search of this site may assist. As well Camper Trailers. If you flattened your batteries you should read this Battery FAQ. As a guide only 50% of a batteries stated amp/hours is available for use.

Other perhaps more qualified will also reply and I expect the answers to be many and varied.

Generators - usually equate with noise and there are many camping spots you either cannot use them or use is restricted. Still probably the most cost effective method of supplying reliable power.

Solar Power - Quiet and pollution free in use. Expensive and performance is subject to the vagaries of weather and geographic location ( sun hours). Good if you stay in the one spot for a few days.

Vehicle alternator - Limited and subject to similiar noise problems as a generator if you attempt to charge when stationary. Many standard vehicle alternators can barely charge a second battery in less than 2 hours running above idle.

You will need to calculate your power usage per day.
Calculate youre vehicle alternator output and how long it takes to charge you second battery (and trailer batteries) from 50% discharge.

Then you will be able to decide how your are going to replace the energy consumed based on how long you wish to stay at unpowered locations.

As an example

I run a 39 litre engel fridge and 2 x 1amp camp lights. I have dual batteries in the vehicle with only the fridge plugged in. I use a seperate ( small) battery for the camp lights.

I can stay without power, for a maximum 3 days arriving with full batteries. I obtain a powered site at caravan parks and recharge batteries using a 240volt 3 stage charger and run the Engel on 240volts.

Alternativley I need to drive for around 4 hours on the 4th day to get the vehicle alternator to recharge the batteries to the full state.

Regards

Paul
AnswerID: 164998

Reply By: Member - Beatit (QLD) - Wednesday, Apr 05, 2006 at 14:42

Wednesday, Apr 05, 2006 at 14:42
G'day Outa Bounds,

This is well answered by Paul so I only want to add that I found a Honda and a 3 stage charger the ideal situation. We run 2 x 50 litre Weacos via a 75 AH battery this way. Also the genie can provide clean power to run the lappie, charge batteries and run my welder in the bush. When it is running, usually avo and early evening it is used to provide lighting etc.

Kind regards
AnswerID: 165000

Follow Up By: StephenF10 - Wednesday, Apr 05, 2006 at 17:05

Wednesday, Apr 05, 2006 at 17:05
Beatit,

What type of 3-stage charger do you have (brand, amps) and how long does it take to charge your battery from flat? I have a Honda and ordinary 6amp charger and am looking at getting a decent 3-stage charger to reduce charging time.

Stephen.
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Follow Up By: Member - Beatit (QLD) - Thursday, Apr 06, 2006 at 07:58

Thursday, Apr 06, 2006 at 07:58
G'day Stephen,

I have a Durst 15 amp charger mounted in a tool box in the camper trailer like so,

!MPG:6!

I don't let the battery get flat. If we pull over somewhere just for a night I may or may not turn the genie on - really depends on the circumstances. If we pull up for a couple of days I will look to have a powered site or run the genie. Reckon there is no real benefit to running the battery down so I try to keep it fully charged. This I find is even more relevant in hot climates. We did a 3 month trip to the Kimberley last year this way and it worked without a problem.

Kind regards
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Reply By: Member - Robert G (WA) - Wednesday, Apr 05, 2006 at 15:22

Wednesday, Apr 05, 2006 at 15:22
outa bounds,

a mate has a new generation honda inverter generator and I have never come across anything like it to date. I want one........
AnswerID: 165011

Reply By: TerraFirma - Wednesday, Apr 05, 2006 at 15:33

Wednesday, Apr 05, 2006 at 15:33
You can use a generator to power a battery charger if you like. The trick is to use the most powerful (Amperage) battery charger suited to your batteries.

For example if you are charging 200AH worth of batteries you might be able to use a 30amp or 40amp battery charger. You would be looking at 4-5 hours using a 40 amp charger to re-charge the batteries. (Check with someone at Batterywold for advise, they do a lot with RV's and Motorhomes etc)

My Kipor Generator runs for around 5 hours on a tank of fuel , around 5 litres. It is very quiet, you wouldn't hear it much if it were positioned 20-40 yards away etc. Good battery chargers include Xantrex (www.xantrex.com) .
AnswerID: 165014

Reply By: 3F62 - Wednesday, Apr 05, 2006 at 16:43

Wednesday, Apr 05, 2006 at 16:43
I run 2x 220amp 6 volt deep cycles in camper. Run same as most, fridge, lights etc.

I use a BP Solar panel in 80 watts & can use Honda 650 Genny if needed. Thats if the big light in the sky goes out for more than a couple of days. If i arrive with fully charged batts i am good for 4 days before charging is needed..

Good luck
AnswerID: 165019

Reply By: muzzimbidgie - Wednesday, Apr 05, 2006 at 16:53

Wednesday, Apr 05, 2006 at 16:53
If you connect up your camper to your car after you have flattened the batteries in the camper, you will simply drain the aux in the car very quickly. Then when you start the car, your alternator will be flat out keeping up with 3 batteries and whatever accesories you may be running, and it would take days of driving to get back up to a decent level of charge, but still not fully charged.

Firstly, try to keep the all your batteries the same type - wet cell, dry cell, agm, deepcycle type, cranking type etc - (they charge and discharge at different rates)

Try to charge them as often as you can. Discharging them big-time stuffs em up.

If you run a gennie, you can put a loaf of bread on while you're at it.
AnswerID: 165023

Follow Up By: Member - Norm C (QLD) - Wednesday, Apr 05, 2006 at 17:37

Wednesday, Apr 05, 2006 at 17:37
muzz, what you say about battery equalization is true, but I don't think it is as bad as often stated. It takes a fair time for it to happen. In any case, to overcome any potential problem, I generally start the vehicle before connecting the CT if I think the state of charge is significantly different between the CT and vehicle DCs.

Also, while it may be good to have all your batteries the same, it is certainly not necessary. I and many other on this forum have successfully mixed batteries for some time. I have one wet cell and two AGM DCs and a wet cell starter. They are paralleled for charging and occasionally (but generally not) all DCs remain in parallel for discharge. I have had not problem in about a year of this set up. Many others have successfully done it for several years.

So while I don't disagree with either of your statements, I think they are situations that can be managed.

I do agree on keeping the batteries as charged as possible, and I love fresh baked bread when camping (but I cook it in a camp oven).
Think I've covered it all.
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Follow Up By: muzzimbidgie - Wednesday, Apr 05, 2006 at 17:52

Wednesday, Apr 05, 2006 at 17:52
Norm, agreed, but I have just had to replace the deep cycle wet cell in my patrol, which didn't last 2 years, and some mumblings from the auto sparkie about trying to keep batteries the same type if possible makes me think this was part of the reason.

But yes, as you have stated, not paramount.

Also, for the work I was doing with my fridge, lights etc, he suggested to stick with a normal cranking battery, the same as my calcium starting battery, which is what I always used to do. So thats what I will do from here on, untill I can afford the Odysee AGM.

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Follow Up By: wheeleybin - Thursday, Apr 06, 2006 at 07:39

Thursday, Apr 06, 2006 at 07:39
Hi
When you have different bateries in parallel in most cars the car rareley gets past 14.4 V so no damage occurs as the regulator shuts back at around 70-75% of battery capacity.
The time you run into trouble with mixed batteries is when you smart charge with a 240V charger with un regulated solar and Smart alternator chargers that can fully charge to 100%.
A truelly smart charger is one that calculates the condition of the battery and has varying voltage selection for different batteries.
A lot of three and four stage chargers sold as smart chargers are not smart and have fixed time charging that can damage the batteries if not used properly.
Wheeley
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Follow Up By: Member - Mike DID - Thursday, Apr 06, 2006 at 09:19

Thursday, Apr 06, 2006 at 09:19
With AGM's being reasonably priced these days, there is no point in buying Wetcell Deep cycle batteries.

Unless you carefully charge and discharge Wetcell Deep cycle batteries, they won't last long. When travelling it is very hard to charge and discharge batteries, and AGMs are alot more forgiving - and they can be used for starting in an emergency.

Mike
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Follow Up By: wheeleybin - Thursday, Apr 06, 2006 at 12:05

Thursday, Apr 06, 2006 at 12:05
Mike wet cell deep cycle batteries have the longest life and are more tollerant of voltage charging than AGM and Gell which are voltage sensitive.
All batteries need careful charging and the wet cell life is wrecked with the human element of not checking the water levels which is not the batteries fault.

I have no trouble charging while travelling and charging to 100% because I fitted a genuine smart charger that uses the alternator to give 4 stage charging with analysis of battery condition every time the ignition is turned on and complete with thermal control to both battery banks and achieves the power ain in one hour of driving that would normally take four hours.

This gives me double the life, double the capacity and safe working alternator and batteries.

If I went to an auto elect and asked for a split battery charging system they would want a lot of money and it would still only give me a 75% charge unless I drove 24/7 and would basically shorten the life of the 2nd battery system.

I say make what you have efficient first before you spend money adding on product that is still inefficient and costs around the same.

Wheeley
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Follow Up By: Wok - Thursday, Apr 06, 2006 at 15:17

Thursday, Apr 06, 2006 at 15:17
Wheeley,

Any link to this alternator add-on?

Thks.....eng
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Follow Up By: Member - Mike DID - Thursday, Apr 06, 2006 at 15:19

Thursday, Apr 06, 2006 at 15:19
Yes, I've been the engineer responsible for deep-cycle installations with 6 inch wide bus-bars, but the the only thing that 20 year design life stationary batteries have in common with the Deep cycles people here will buy, is that they contain Lead and Acid. They are designed for rare discharges and can't cope with any vibration. They use very carefully controlled charging.

Modern AGM's are very robust against variable charging and discharging.

The "car batteries are never charged above 70%" myth is just no longer true with electronically controlled Alternators.

Mike
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Follow Up By: wheeleybin - Thursday, Apr 06, 2006 at 16:38

Thursday, Apr 06, 2006 at 16:38
Mike
Static deep cycles yes but what FWC battery is designed and built with vibration in mind and is used extensively is mobile situations.
US2200 along with Trojan and if you maintain them no AGM will get the life span.

There is a chance with the CSIRO designed Supergel as it is now replaceing FWC batteries in outback areas because of the extra heat tollerance along with long life but it is a Gel.

I would not say all AGM,s are equal as the majority of cheaper AGM,s will not accommodate fast recharging and you have to pay a lot more for the quality AGM,s that make it a far cry cost wise for the man that maintains his batteries properly.

Wheeley

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Follow Up By: wheeleybin - Thursday, Apr 06, 2006 at 16:50

Thursday, Apr 06, 2006 at 16:50
Wok
Wait for a while longer as Geoff from Newcastle a forum member looks like fitting his new 2006 Troopey with the gear and the proof of the statements will be forthcoming as he understands where its coming from and can make his own assessment which Im sure he will post.
Just to add a bit a major Australian service Company had power troubles using two 180AH batteries with an inverter in a service van and was running out of power after lunch.
They were fitted with a trial unit and new batteries which increased the working capacity of the vehicle out to 16/18 hours per day.
There is no other charging regime used in these vehicles.
It appears they could be now considering upgrading all problem vehicles.
Wheeley

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Follow Up By: wheeleybin - Thursday, Apr 06, 2006 at 16:59

Thursday, Apr 06, 2006 at 16:59
Wok
Wait for a while longer as Geoff from Newcastle a forum member looks like fitting his new 2006 Troopey with the gear and the proof of the statements will be forthcoming as he understands where its coming from and can make his own assessment which Im sure he will post.
Just to add a bit a major Australian service Company had power troubles using two 180AH batteries with an inverter in a service van and was running out of power after lunch and with new batteries they started to lose capacity after one month.
They were fitted with a trial Smart Batt to Batt unit and new batteries which increased the working capacity of the vehicle out to 16/18 hours per day and after three months the batteries are still top performing.
There is no other charging regime used in these vehicles.
It appears they could be now considering upgrading all problem vehicles.
Wheeley

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Reply By: Member - Norm C (QLD) - Wednesday, Apr 05, 2006 at 17:21

Wednesday, Apr 05, 2006 at 17:21
Outa Bounds, you have had some good advice so far. If you are looking for a generator, consider the Kipor. I have one and I think it is very similar to the Honda. Very quiet and so far, very reliable. It's main attraction is it is about $400 cheaper than the Honda and Yamaha and has similar features. Hasn't proven it's longevity yet, but OK so far.

When you run your cable via Anderson Plug, use the thickest cable you can manage. It will reduce voltage drop and give a better charge. I used 25mm squared double insulated welding cable (from electrical wholesaler). A number of others on this forum have used the same thing, or similar.

Even if you don't get a generator initially, it is well worth getting a good multi stage charger. I have a CTEK 25 Amp, which is very good, but there are a number of other good brands as well. If going away for a few days or more, I always fully charge off 240 V before heading off. When on a big trip, we do the same whenever we have access to 240V (occasional CP, drop in on friends etc). We only run the gennie when necessary.

I run a 105AH Deep Cycle and two 120AH AGM Deep Cycles. They run a 70 Lt fridge (with freezer compartment), water pump, up to 6 lights and an inverter for charging laptop, camera and other batteries. If ambient temp is not above mid 20s, we get about 6 days, but this includes a bit of driving (say average one hour per day) that helps a bit on the vehicle mounted DC. If ambient temp is well into the 30s (often is, I'm in Qld), this can cut time down to 4 or 5 days due to extra cycling of the fridge. I mention this to ensure you have a realistic view of what your batteries can achieve.

Well worth the time and investment to get this sorted well.
Good luck.
Norm C
AnswerID: 165032

Reply By: Trevor R (QLD) - Wednesday, Apr 05, 2006 at 18:43

Wednesday, Apr 05, 2006 at 18:43
Hi OB,

I have seen advertised in magazines, a small motor with a 50 amp (maybe more?) alternator attached to it. You would use it like a genset but you would be pumping 50 amps in at any one time as opposed to the smaller amps a gennie or charger could put in. Therefore less time would be required running the noise box to have full batteries again. I can't remember names or prices for these things (others may help here) and I understand their limitations compared to the genset but it may be worth looking in to as this may suit your requirements and budget better than an expensive 3 stage charger and gennie ???
Plenty of advise on best way to go so I won't comment on that as you already have enough ammo to get you thinking for days.

Cheers Trevor.
AnswerID: 165048

Follow Up By: Outa Bounds - Wednesday, Apr 05, 2006 at 18:56

Wednesday, Apr 05, 2006 at 18:56
That's what I was referring to when I said the Christie Charger - it's made by Christie Engineering. So if anyone has any experience or comments on those it would be great! And thanks for your replies so far, will definitely be considering all angles.

And yes my mistake, we only got 2 days out of the 100amp hour battery in the camper, so we'd probably get 4 days with the extra one in line.

Both car batteries are those expensive sealed jobs too.
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FollowupID: 419934

Reply By: Member - Crazy Dog (QLD) - Wednesday, Apr 05, 2006 at 20:04

Wednesday, Apr 05, 2006 at 20:04
Yo Outa Bounds,

Where you from?

I live in Cairns and have just started a campertrailer group up here (no membership-fees etc just agroup of people camping and swapping ideas etc) that could probably assist you to get things sorted.

This forum is really great - listen to the old hands - they have the experience - don't take too much notice of the jibes - they are mostly in fun - we are all fair game on this site. I was so impressed with the site and the respondents I joined (couldn't afford to buy it though). If you are interested let me know thru here (email address) and I will get the info to you.

Yes we are all interested in probs like this and the focus of one of our weekends away will to be to swap ideas along this line...

Hope to talk soon....

Grrrr!!
AnswerID: 165067

Follow Up By: Outa Bounds - Thursday, Apr 06, 2006 at 07:56

Thursday, Apr 06, 2006 at 07:56
Hi Crazy Dog,

We're in Townsville at the moment. We would be interested in joining a 4wd or camping group of some sort, it's something we've thought about but haven't as yet got around to doing it. Now that the kids are a little oler we're beginning to get back into the camping thing alot more. We were acutally planning to explore the Tablelands way for a few days but gave it a miss this week (due to cyclone & other reasons). Around July we're planning to do a trip to Cape York (we'll have about 18 days to do it).

Sorry if I'm going off topic for the original post, but since we're only "visitor" status here at the moment I couldn't send a personal message.

Some more info about your group would be great, you can reach us on this email address: kristina00@optusnet.com.au

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Reply By: Jack 2000 - Wednesday, Apr 05, 2006 at 20:24

Wednesday, Apr 05, 2006 at 20:24
Kippor 2000 genset, and a three stage smart charger will do the job. ebay has both at huge savings.ie genset =$895 and charger =$200. use these and you will last forever.
AnswerID: 165076

Reply By: Member - Mike DID - Thursday, Apr 06, 2006 at 09:15

Thursday, Apr 06, 2006 at 09:15
"I imagine this should get us one weeks worth of power (at least)"

- this is not a good way to PLAN on using your batteries if you want a long life. Whenever a battery is less than 100% charged, sulphate is building up.

You should PLAN on totally recharging your battery every day. If the sun doesn't shine etc etc and you occasionally leave them uncharged for several days, it won't have a major impact.

Mike
AnswerID: 165181

Follow Up By: Member - Roachie (SA) - Thursday, Apr 06, 2006 at 16:56

Thursday, Apr 06, 2006 at 16:56
I agree with that 110% Mike....well spoken.
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