Biodiesel.Will this work?

Submitted: Friday, Apr 07, 2006 at 01:50
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A question for the biodiesel experts. Is it possible to put straight vegetable oil into a tank with dino diesel in it without any ill affects? i know you can buy blended diesel, but can i simply go to the store and buy some vegetable oil and simply pour it into my tank which already has dino diesel in it? also would it matter if it is new oil or can you use filtered used oil? just curious. thanks for the replies.
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Reply By: Kiwi Kia - Friday, Apr 07, 2006 at 06:46

Friday, Apr 07, 2006 at 06:46
Depends on what you call 'filtered'. Do you know what it costs to o/h a fuel pump !
AnswerID: 165456

Reply By: turbopete - Friday, Apr 07, 2006 at 07:28

Friday, Apr 07, 2006 at 07:28
why dont you go to the fruoterer and buy all the old vegetables they give away to feed the chooks etc you could put them in the kitchen whizz with a bottle of vegetable oil canola is ok mix all up and shove in tank lettuce leaves r not much good nor r parsnips most other veges r OK.
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Follow Up By: Michael ( Moss Vale NSW) - Friday, Apr 07, 2006 at 07:34

Friday, Apr 07, 2006 at 07:34
I always find that the lettuce leaf stick to the strainer in the tank and stop the flow of fuel,, LOL!
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Reply By: Member - Oldplodder (QLD) - Friday, Apr 07, 2006 at 07:40

Friday, Apr 07, 2006 at 07:40
I have been doing some research and slowly learning.
Just search the biodiesel sites, a wealth of information out there.

From what I can work out, running straight vege oil is not safe.
1. When vege oils burn, or more correctly come into contact with high temperatures, they form longer chains of molecules, which can carbonise. One spot this can happen is at the injectors, so blocked injectors.
2. There is a wide variation in vege oils, some are worse than others.

The biodiesel manufacturing process stops this from happening.
They use an alkali to pull the glycerine out of the oil.
The level of glycerine is called the iodine level, since iodine can be mixed with a sample of the vege oil and the amount absorbed indicates the problem.

So some vege oil may be OK, but 100% definitely not.

Now, being new to this biodiesel business, I am open to correction.
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Reply By: Rigor - Friday, Apr 07, 2006 at 07:53

Friday, Apr 07, 2006 at 07:53
From what I understand the process called transesterification is to remove the glycerine from the vegie oil to produce the Bio diesel . Apart from filtering and unsuring correct PH and water content thats about it. The glycerine will cause the problem with carbonisation as mentioned above.

Dave L.
AnswerID: 165477

Reply By: StephenF10 - Friday, Apr 07, 2006 at 09:05

Friday, Apr 07, 2006 at 09:05
I thought that "blended diesel" referred to a blend of petrodiesel and biodiesel, not petrodiesel and SVO (Straight Vegetable Oil). SVO is not recommended for some pumps (CAV Rotodiesel is one I know of) unless it is pre-heated. This means that you start on diesel, switch over to SVO when it has warmed up, then switch back to diesel before shutting down so that there is diesel in the pump when it next starts. I don't know the effects of a blend of diesel and SVO but I would do a whole lot of research before trying it.

Stephen.
AnswerID: 165503

Reply By: Pterosaur - Friday, Apr 07, 2006 at 09:11

Friday, Apr 07, 2006 at 09:11
Check out this site - apparently, if veggie oil is (pre)heated to lower its viscosity, it works fine

" target="EOF" class="lbg">www.greasel.com/

regards
Terry
AnswerID: 165505

Follow Up By: Pterosaur - Friday, Apr 07, 2006 at 09:14

Friday, Apr 07, 2006 at 09:14
Don't know why that didn't work

try

" target="EOF" class="lbg">www.greasel.com/Home
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Follow Up By: Pterosaur - Friday, Apr 07, 2006 at 09:19

Friday, Apr 07, 2006 at 09:19
Bugger ! Got me stumped - works on my bookmarks - cut and paste the link gives a "404 error" - try searching on google should get you on to the site - maybe have to log on or something.

Anyhow, they sell units which allow diesels to run on straight veggie oil, new or used - one made by Mercedes from memory. Also sell a unit which allows you to pump directly from "greasy Joe's" into your vehicle.
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Follow Up By: Pterosaur - Friday, Apr 07, 2006 at 09:21

Friday, Apr 07, 2006 at 09:21
Now called " Golden Fuel Systems"
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Reply By: Tim HJ61 (WA) - Friday, Apr 07, 2006 at 09:29

Friday, Apr 07, 2006 at 09:29
Peter,

I'm surprised your forum search didn't show up my contributions on this topic before.

Yes it is possible.

There are a wealth of good links with a few starting points being:

www.ravenfamily.org/andyg/vegoil.htm
www.greasecar.com/
Site Link
www.frybrid.com/
www.biofuelsforum.com/ go to the WVO section

Adding brand new supermarket vegetable oil - available on special at my local supermarket for $1 litre - at a blend of up to 25% oil requires no modification, no concern for clogged injectors or rings, will remove the diesel smell from you exhaust, extend your use of fossil fuels, give you a great talking point, run your engine quieter, minimise the black smoke. You will also be breaking ATO laws by blending an excisable fuel and a non excisable fuel. To get around the tax laws, you run a two tank system where you start up and shut down on dino diesel and when the engine is warm, you switch to heated full strength vege oil.

A diesel can run 100% vege oil new or used without problem as long as it is viscous enough to be injected properly otherwise you may/will have problems with coking injectors and rings. You reduce the viscosity by either heat - at 70°C canola oil reaches a viscosity similar to diesel - or by thinning it.

You can heat it either electrically, or the favoured method of using a heat exchanger off the coolant system. To thin it people use dino diesel, kerosene and in the US they use unleaded.
Adding even a few litres to a tank full of dino diesel will increase the lubricosity of the dino diesel substantially for the benefit of your pump.

Filtering is critical. Vege oil users can buy 5 micron sock type filters that are adequate. Supermarket oil does not need filtering, just pour it in.
Heating, blending etc., can be avoided as per the above post, by converting the vege oil to biodiesel, which several forum users are reporting on.
Using vege oil, new or used, is NOT biodiesel.
Some diesels, notably rotary Lucas pumps are not suited to vege oil.
The jury is out as far as I know on VO for high pressure common rail engines. It would simply be a matter of viscosity through the pump and injectors.

Caveat emptor. Do your own research. Try it once with new supermarket oil. It's only kinky the first time.

Regards
Tim
AnswerID: 165509

Follow Up By: Michael ( Moss Vale NSW) - Friday, Apr 07, 2006 at 22:24

Friday, Apr 07, 2006 at 22:24
I think when we all get a clear handle on the do's and dont's, revenge may follow on the oil companies!!!
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Follow Up By: Peter - Saturday, Apr 08, 2006 at 23:29

Saturday, Apr 08, 2006 at 23:29
Tim,
thanks for the info. i have read many of your replies on biodiesel. they are very informative and a great read.
just couldn't find the one specifically on my question. i put it down to my lack of search skills.
i read how to make biodiesel. i read that i can run SVO from a separate tank. i just didnt read if i could blend dino with svo. the info you supplied is as usual very good and the links are great. oh and a special mention to saurus. the link almost worked.
all there is to do now is give the mix a test run. might even make my own proper biodiesel. hopefully the old injector pump wont blow the still original seals as a result. surprised it hasnt already with the low sulfur diesel. still i put some lucas or moreys additive in every so often so maybe that is doing as they claim and keeping the seals from leaking.

peter
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Follow Up By: Tim HJ61 (WA) - Saturday, Apr 08, 2006 at 23:46

Saturday, Apr 08, 2006 at 23:46
Thanks for the feedback Peter, you're probably right that I hadn't previously answered your specific question, no worries.

This isn't the best forum to be getting the technical tips on vege oil and bioD, it's good for lot's of things, but there are much more comprehensive sites out there that are better, and with fewer naysayers, for this stuff.

One of the problems with VO and even BioD made in the backyard is the legal aspect. it's all a bit underground - I've heard about this bloke that ...., so as to avoid undue attention from the ATO. Bit sad really.

One of the things I've learnt with the WA Renewable Fuels Association meetings, www.shortcircuit.com.au/warfa/warfa.htm are the lubricosity benefits to IP's by adding a couple of litres of new oil to each tank. Not as anything special to save the environment, but as an additive to increase the lubricosity of diesel. Now I don't know why the seals might be leaking, but I'd be betting 2 litres of vege oil will be a lot cheaper than anything branded Lucas or Morey's, and just may have similar benefits.

Personally, I can't see myself making bioD. Not enough room at home, too many dangerous chemicals. I failed Chem at school, it's all a bit spooky to me. I'll be buying bioD when it's available, but making it.... not for me. Each to their own.

All the best in your journey.

Tim
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