BioDiesel risk

Submitted: Sunday, May 07, 2006 at 17:41
ThreadID: 33652 Views:2868 Replies:12 FollowUps:17
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A write-up in the Motoring pages of the West Australian has a spokesman from Toyota, Mike Breen, state that with a biodiesel blend over 5% you would not be covered by warranty.

Nissan spokesman, Karl Gehling, said that the company did not recommend the use of biodiesel in any of its models.

DaimlerChrysler, Mercedes and Volkswagon spokesmen also said up to 5% was OK with BMW stating that they do not recommend biodiesel at all. Land Rover said that their handbooks specifically stated that their engines were not compatible with biodiesel.

Peugot was the exception with their statement that bio to a maximum blend up to 30% would not void the warranty.

I was just getting interested in the Gull B20, but now, hmmm?

Banjo (WA)
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Reply By: fisho64 - Sunday, May 07, 2006 at 18:08

Sunday, May 07, 2006 at 18:08
Only cos they wont (and dont have to) stick there necks on the line. If the government said they were going to charge extra tariffs or tax for all non bio compatible diesels they'd jump quick then. But they dont need to put their necks on the line so they dont. There is no reason why they cant be used. If you go on the yank bio websites they mostly use the mercedes diesel as being indestructible with bio and straight vege oil.
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Reply By: Member - Karl - Sunday, May 07, 2006 at 18:20

Sunday, May 07, 2006 at 18:20
I am using the Gull B20 and am more than happy with it. Personally I believe that there is more than enough research done to support it and I don't think Gull or anyone would sell a product that they knew was faulty or may casue major damage - as they could be held liable or even be up for hefty repair bills. Just my personal beliefs though.
AnswerID: 171338

Follow Up By: Truckster (Vic) - Monday, May 08, 2006 at 10:33

Monday, May 08, 2006 at 10:33
>>> I don't think Gull or anyone would sell a product that they knew was faulty or may casue major damage -

remember BP with their first effort of Low Sulphur killing pumps?
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Reply By: Member - Pezza (QLD) - Sunday, May 07, 2006 at 18:37

Sunday, May 07, 2006 at 18:37
It's just another B/S statement to confirm the I-scratch-your-back-if-you-scratch-mine relationship between the major motoring manufacturers and the oil companies.
Everybody has their finger in everyone elses pie!

Avagoodn
Pezza

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Follow Up By: Barnesy - Monday, May 08, 2006 at 01:16

Monday, May 08, 2006 at 01:16
Exactly Pezza. How could VW, BMW and other European manufacturers say biodiesel is no good?

aren't about 40-70% (depending on the country) of new passenger cars built in Europe running on biodiesel?

VW and BMW must use different engines in the cars they export to Australia.

What crap.

The first diesels were designed and built to run on PEANUT OIL! How many vegetable oil manufacturers are in bed with corporate VW and BMW Australia?

Barnesy
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Follow Up By: Member - Jeff M (WA) - Monday, May 08, 2006 at 15:07

Monday, May 08, 2006 at 15:07
Yep, read that and thought - scare mongor!.

I've used over 600L of B100 through the surf so far without a single hassel. In fact I reckon it runs better.

Anyway, I don't really give a hoot, the more left for me if noone else uses it, at more than 40c a litire cheaper the less demand on it the better for me!
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Follow Up By: Barnesy - Monday, May 08, 2006 at 18:30

Monday, May 08, 2006 at 18:30
Jeff, 40c a litre cheaper, do you make your own?
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Follow Up By: Member - Jeff M (WA) - Monday, May 08, 2006 at 20:11

Monday, May 08, 2006 at 20:11
No I buy it locally from a guy who's making it commercially. I buy it in 200L drums.
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Reply By: Member - Blue (VIC) - Sunday, May 07, 2006 at 18:58

Sunday, May 07, 2006 at 18:58
If I couldn't gaurantee the quality of the product the consumer was using, I wouldn't warranty it either...

An interesting thing has been going on with the trucking company that delivers all of our bulk products. They have been buying in bio-diesel for their fleet. Some of the drivers were unhappy with the way their trucks were running and the excessive fuel consumption, not least of all the subbies who were also using this fuel as part of their contract... So 2 subbies take samples and one is analysed by Cat Australia and the other by an independant lab. Both samples came back in spec in every way bar moisture content. With over 2500 parts per million(ppm) of water in the fuel, it was slightly over Cat's recommended maximum of 200ppm.

Surely that much water is going to do some long term damage with regard to injector pumps and the injectors them selves...
AnswerID: 171349

Reply By: Member - Nick (Kununurra) - Sunday, May 07, 2006 at 19:25

Sunday, May 07, 2006 at 19:25
Whats the differance anyway,they wont cover you even if its not bio.(the bleeps wouldnt ours anyway).
The bit ive had to do with warranties is they arnt worth the paper there written on.From now on I do all the work on our cruiser,never to Toyota again.(even though its still got 1 year factory warranty left)
AnswerID: 171354

Reply By: hanson - Sunday, May 07, 2006 at 19:53

Sunday, May 07, 2006 at 19:53
i'vwe been using bio diesel since december 05, only modification i have made is to put additional fuel filter in line before standard filter, it traps any dirt and any water, and the bio diesel is home made, works out at about 20c diesel smells like fish and chips ... oil from cafes etc.... hanson
AnswerID: 171366

Follow Up By: hoyks - Sunday, May 07, 2006 at 20:23

Sunday, May 07, 2006 at 20:23
Same here. I have run mine with no problems at all. The second filter doesn't need changing anymore than when running on commercial diesel and when I do change it every 30,000km is hardly contaminated at all.
I have even poured the oil out of the deep fryer through a coffee filter and chucked that in as well.

I think the main problem is that they don’t want to say yes to Bio-D as you can knock it up in the back shed and there is no control over the quality, so I can see their point.
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Follow Up By: big fella - Monday, May 08, 2006 at 05:16

Monday, May 08, 2006 at 05:16
hi hanson do you have a recipe for making your diesel and what quanties do you make your batches in

Regards BigFella
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Follow Up By: ch00k555 - Monday, May 08, 2006 at 09:26

Monday, May 08, 2006 at 09:26
Gidday Hanson,
I to am very interested in your recipe and setup. I'm keen to start making my own bioD.
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Follow Up By: Truckster (Vic) - Monday, May 08, 2006 at 10:35

Monday, May 08, 2006 at 10:35
use google people theres dozens of recipes on biodiesel

goto google and type in Biodiesel, then look...
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Follow Up By: Member - Andrew W (SA) - Monday, May 08, 2006 at 17:31

Monday, May 08, 2006 at 17:31
better still, Bio Fuels Forum.
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Follow Up By: hanson - Monday, May 08, 2006 at 22:30

Monday, May 08, 2006 at 22:30
hi big fella, got my recipe from a book printed in Tassie, it's in shed at moment not very technical at all will check out name and details tomorrow .... hanson
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Reply By: Member - Andrew W (SA) - Sunday, May 07, 2006 at 21:09

Sunday, May 07, 2006 at 21:09
I've done 60,000k's to date mostly on Biodiesel.

The 1HZ's outa warranty anyways so what Toyota says doesn't matter.

Remember that 100% biodiesel is being sold in huge volume and used by many Mercedes, Volkswagens, Toyotas and Nissans in Europe and that this is absolute crap.

In the end, if there are ANY fuel-related problems, the fuel is warranted by the major Biodiesel suppliers in Australia (like SAFF in SA for instance) and there is a Biodiesel standard in Australia that is far more stringent than the standards applying to Diesel (eg. gel temp etc.).

Seriously - unless they happen to test your fuel when you bring it in (like fun), they are NEVER going to know.

What day's paper was this in Banjo - I'd like to see it - could you scan and post it?

Kind rgds
Andrew.
AnswerID: 171401

Follow Up By: Member - Banjo (WA) - Monday, May 08, 2006 at 09:08

Monday, May 08, 2006 at 09:08
Andrew,
Sorry, no scanner. The paper is, as in the original post, the West Australian.
Inside there is a supplement called 'Motoring'.
Does the SA Saturday or Sunday paper have a similar supplement? If so the article possibly reproduced there.
Banjo (WA)
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Follow Up By: Member - Andrew W (SA) - Monday, May 08, 2006 at 17:32

Monday, May 08, 2006 at 17:32
no probs Banjo - the News Ltd paper on Sat didn't have that article in the Motoring section damn it.

Ciao for now
Andrew.
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Reply By: angler - Sunday, May 07, 2006 at 21:13

Sunday, May 07, 2006 at 21:13
Check out www.reefuel.com/ some good info there
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Reply By: Slunnie - Monday, May 08, 2006 at 00:37

Monday, May 08, 2006 at 00:37
I did a bit of reading into it, and was about to try and start using it while my tanks were clean since installing newbies. With LandRover TD5's at least, it seems they run ok on the Biodiesel for a while (as in about 6 months), but although all of the specifications of the Biodiesel are better in most areas that regular dino diesel, the Bio apparently reacts differently under the 20,000psi of pressure from the unit injectors and solids or something can fall out which fouls the injectors. I assume that the cleaning power of Bio cant undo this.

Based purely on this, be it right or wrong, I don't run the bio.
AnswerID: 171455

Reply By: Barnesy - Monday, May 08, 2006 at 01:01

Monday, May 08, 2006 at 01:01
I don't understand this argument. The first diesels over 100 years ago were designed and built to run on PEANUT OIL!

Rudolf Diesel himself stated at the World's Fair in Paris in 1900 (where the diesel engine won gold) that "the value of running an engine on vegetable oil won't be appreciated for a long time, but it will be appreciated".

Seems like that time is now.

Unless the design of the diesel engine has changed marketedly since then, then you have to take what you read in newspapers with a grain of salt.

Barnesy

AnswerID: 171457

Follow Up By: tex1972 - Monday, May 08, 2006 at 15:08

Monday, May 08, 2006 at 15:08
Of course the design of the diesel engine has changed since then, his first engines did not have an injector pump and weighed 250 kg to make 1 hp. It wasn't untill a system of metered fuel delivery was introduced (about 1920) that the diesel engine became useful. About 1926 it was used quite a lot in "lorries". About the only things todays engines have in common with his is the operating principle and the basic piston and bore design.

Tex
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Follow Up By: Member - Andrew W (SA) - Monday, May 08, 2006 at 17:33

Monday, May 08, 2006 at 17:33
and the ability to run very efficiently on transesterified biomass - otherwise known as biodiesel.
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Follow Up By: fisho64 - Monday, May 08, 2006 at 18:12

Monday, May 08, 2006 at 18:12
Actually the first diesels ran on coal dust.
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Reply By: RupertDog - Monday, May 08, 2006 at 16:56

Monday, May 08, 2006 at 16:56
Banjo

Read the same article with interest.

Don't know if it was just me, but the comments against Biodiesel seemed to be directed towards the "backyard DIY" bio, and not the GULL bio. Didn't exactly spell this out in the article, but most comments were "can't guarentee the quality", "inconsistent", etc, etc. GULL claimed their bio met the Govt standard (?) for diesel, not just bio.

I would tend towards the "give it try brigade" (GULL) and less towards the "don't try anything new" brigade (Manufacturers). Good one for the conspiracy hounds !! May even lead to another Engel v Waeco, Nissan v Toyota, ongoing series of discussions.

Unfortunately this is a purely acedemic arguement, as currently run petrol, and not able to upgrade to diesel until the lotto numbers come in!

RD
AnswerID: 171536

Follow Up By: Member - Andrew W (SA) - Monday, May 08, 2006 at 17:43

Monday, May 08, 2006 at 17:43
the gov't standard for diesel is never going to be met by biodiesel, but then neither is fossil fuel diesel ever going to meet the standard for Biodiesel.

Even the parts of it that would matter for fossil fuel, Australian Standard Biodiesel is a much better product.

Certainly, home made biodiesel (which WA is famous for) is unlikely to have been standards tested (certainly not every batch as you have with commercial biodiesel - a requirement in order for the industry to get a rebate!), and could be prone to microbial contamination, high gel point (depending on the feedstock), other contaminants from the reaction or other sources, but for all that, the process of making Biodiesel ensures a high level of quality - if the reaction has occured to completion, the biodiesel naturally separates from the other products (and for that matter unreacted fatty acids) so that there are little contaminants likely to be found after combustion in the engine that the big car companies could notice anyways.

Ciao for now
Andrew.
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Reply By: DesC - Tuesday, May 09, 2006 at 18:54

Tuesday, May 09, 2006 at 18:54
Those vehicle manufacturers must be getting duked by the oil companies
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