DSE stuff tracks - king valley

I was the first to drive one of the tracks after the grader and can say that it was left in a bad way, maybe they hadn't finished yet. There was no need in the first place was there the week before, the tracks were fine.

Some might thing I'm exaggerating a bit but these tracks even on some flat sections at slow speed your momentum tries to push you off the track as the 6inch mud gives you no traction even with mud tyres.

Maybe they opted to get their contractors gear out before they couldn't get it out and had to pay him to have it sitting in there doing nothing?

DSE don't set out to deliberately damage their tracks. They spend hundreds of thousands of dollars a year maintaining them. Why would they deliberately undo the work?

131963 is their phone number, and they will happily put you through to someone at the Mansfield office who could answer your question.

Of course if the tracks were as bad as you say, and you opted to drive them anyway it could be strongly argued that you contributed to the present state of the track.

DSE were more than happy to send staff in after hours to assist to get to a girl having an asthma attack in that country recently - and one of the reasons they were was that their staff had a better idea of which tracks were in lousy condition and would prevent access to the patient.

If they leave their track work until spring then they would have to close them long after winter for much longer to allow the work to stabilise - for example after they fixed up Davies Plain Track after the damage from the rain in Feb 03 they closed it until something like Feb or March 12 months later.

Would you rather they did the track work in November and closed them until after Christmas?

Before you get on here and bag them, think about the issues, maybe make some enquiries, and have a think about whether you really needed to drive them in that condition - and if you did whether the track was going to be better or worse after you finished.

After all it's my taxes you are spending too.

No I don't work for DSE either.

Dave

>DSE don't set out to deliberately damage their tracks.

DSE don't own any tracks - we do. And we grant the DSE the privilege of looking after them for us and we pay them to do that. It is an important point and should not be overlooked.

Mike Harding

If those tracks are for fire access - DSE responsibility
If in declared Park and are visitor access roads - PV resposibility

Update

131 963 is Park Victoria's access number

For general information about DSE please contact:
Customer Service Centre
Phone: 136 186

As I said before, there was nothing wrong with most of these tracks in the first place. I have seen changes to these tracks for years and most are a waste of time, one year humps all over the place the next year they remove them and so on.

What a waste of money, using up there budget. The DSE are the ones that damaged these tracks not us, but I bet we get the blame. Pen pushers making decisions from the office without getting off there butts and seeing which tracks need attention or not.

As stated in a previous posts these are the public's tracks, stop closing them and wasting our money and use it as needed. After all it’s called the bush leave it that way, next thing we know a bitumen road will get put in so a mini will be able to drive around the bush.

"DSE don't own any tracks - we do. And we grant the DSE the privilege of looking after them for us and we pay them to do that. It is an important point and should not be overlooked."

WE grant DSE the "Privilege" of looking after them for us????.

What planet do you live on, DSE are mandated by law to do what they do, hardly what could be described as a Privilege and we don't "Pay" them they receive funding like any other government department to conduct operations as required.
And thats an important point and should not be overlooked!!

Oh dear John - yet again your desire to attack overcomes your ability to think through an issue.

Perhaps you could look out a few books on the way democracy works?

I know this may come as a surprise to you - but _we the people_ control this country not the DSE or the state governments or the government in Canberra. It's _our_ country John and _we the people_ decide who does what - and we don't answer to the DSE - they answer to us - that's democracy John and it's what we pay them to do for us – not for themselves – and _that_ is a very important point to remember.

Mike Harding

Yep good to see that once again Michael your self centred, overbearing and condescending attitude to all others shows through in its finest form.

Please point out where I disputed WHO owns what in this country?

Please also point out where it says within the statues of this state that DSE is granted a "Privilege" of anything?
And further please point out where DSE is "Paid" to look after them for us?

I would just like to see you direct DSE or any other State or Federal Government Dept in support of your claim that "WE" control the country.

Oh and by the way DSE don't answer to us they answer to the Minister who then ultimately answers to us.
Maybe a small point in the democratic set up that you seem to have overlooked. You know the politician's are the one's we actually elected?? Remember???

But then again this is Australia and not the old country isn't it Michael?

>Yep good to see that once again Michael your self centred,
>overbearing and condescending attitude to all others shows
>through in its finest form.

Stop beating around the bush John! If you have something to say just come out and say it! :)

John, it's hard to make much sense of your post (situation normal) so I can only reiterate my suggestion that you do a bit of reading on the basics of democracy and you'll find we tell the governments (and their departments) what to do and not the other way around - that's what happens in communist countries.

Mike Harding

PS. You would do well to re-read many of your own posts to this forum and decide how many of the adjectives you apply to me you should, also, apply to yourself.

Probably in a blind panic to spend all the budget money before the end of the financial year they grade the first track on the list. Saw the same in Lerderderg Park recently, two excellent tracks graded for no reason.

Just love the upgrade you've done to the Lux Ray...sort of looks like it means business?? Cheers

That's the advance party Leigh. We use them to clear the tracks and campgrounds of undesirables....

ray the tracks that were graded and widened in lerdy and wombat a while back was to create zones for their "controlled burning" operations.

some of them are wider than the calder fwy now !!

but theres still a lot of nice narrow rarely used tracks around the area ;-)

Yeah It's very easy to get lost down a little track and not see anyone for a week or more, great place. Thanks Brad.

You just proved my point if it can’t be carried out when required it’s a waste of time and money.

As for contacting them directly, have done that and they wouldn't have a clue what day it was, who they worked with, who there boss was, mostly don't care, all they do if give you the run around.

As for the start of winter for the best time to do maintenance what a load of crap, they have to do the roads again after winter anyhow to clear them from trees and other obstacles after the snow and winter storms.

The actual workers and I’m mates with a few of them think the same; they just do what the boss indicates.

Reckon you'd better get back on that class for "road maintenance 101", then you might actually know what you're talking about.

Nice comeback Pterosaur, open your eyes and read I know some of the blokes that do this work they laugh at half the s..t they get asked to do by the DSE.

You wouldn't be one of these pens pushers that have all these ideas, that seem great on paper would you?

Pterosaur,

You'd have to think that in a location like this, and more generally, DSE will have significant allocation for anticipated repair work which will be at the discretion of some managers somewhere.

I happen to think some of the tracks were worse than usual, but that repair work would be pretty futile at this time of year - but I am not a track maintenance worker.

To me, noone has the full story here, so we are best to just lay low and see what happens.

Andrew.

Hound,

no "pen pusher" - I have had to build and maintain tracks in "bush" areas for over 12 years, working under similar conditions to the DSE blokes. I don't do it now, and I don't know the specific places of which you talk, but I have plenty of experience in dealing with the sort of problems you observed, as a hands-on "worker" and as "supervisor/planner" - often all at once.

The "workers" may laugh, as I'm sure many brickie's labourers do, about the tasks they are asked to do - but that doesn't make them right, nor the people best suited to plan and organise whatever they are working on !

Try and find a bit of information about track maintenance and construction and you'll find out I'm correct about the main principle - "getting and keeping the water off", and I'm also sure that you'll find that the general consensus is that the best time to carry out such work is BEFORE the rains hit. ( It goes something like " a stitch in time saves nine" ).

That further work has also to be carried out after winter does not alter this fact - just consider that if (necessary) work was not done before winter, then the "post winter" requirements would be just that much more extensive and costly to perform.

Andrew,

I agree - but in my (tiresome) experience of the funding mechanisms, it's impossible to budge the bureaucratic requirements - track work is expensive, and "head office" is extremely resistant to the idea of giving any significant "discretionary" funding to field officers, and certainly not of the order required to carry out such work on a "needs" basis.

I don't pretend this is an ideal situation, and made many representations to attempt to change it, but with little success.

regards
Terry

Hound. Grading roads when they are dry & dusty is generaly a waste of time as the dirt just blows away. Ideally they normally wait for the first rain so that after grading, it compacts down into a hard base. The risk here of course is that they may get too much rain & then it may need to be redone. Unfortunately the dry period may have led to work being postponed till later than usual. If done now before the heavy rains of late winter & spring the gutters & roads will be formed, erosion control ditches installed, culverts cleaned out, all preventing large washouts that would cost far more to repair in late spring. All these roads will be closed in a few weeks & I guess DSE were hoping to have all the tracks in the area graded for the winter closure so they would be ready for the next season. Bagging DSE for getting too much rain in the week after the work is a waste of time as it's pretty much out of their control. No doubt as you are so keen to have a well maintained track network we'll see you later in the year assisting the 4x4 association in track clearing ;-) No I thought not..............
Cheers Craig.........

> we'll see you later in the year assisting the 4x4 association in track clearing <

I know nothing about this Craig...what's the go

Ray most Victorian 4wd clubs undertake a co operative track clearing program within the arrangement of the Vic 4wd Association.

Have a look at the Vic 4wd Assoc web site it normally has some info on up and coming clearing operations to be undertaken.
Same as rubbish clearance and removal programs, track classification programs and various bush fire assistance programs.

I was offering to help but the Vic 4WD association don't answer emails ... oh well.

Perhaps they don't like non-Vics helping out.
Andrew.

Hound, am interested in your comments and I wonder if you may put up the dates of your visit. It has been pretty apparent that DSE have been having trouble managing everything from backburning, to time of year and management of fuel reduction burning and now the management of tracks.

I know you can never know when you are going get the majority of the rain fall or the season start, but you generally have a good idea. As Crackles says you need some mouisture but they have to learn a little of the weather forecasting and the use of it. Also as Crackles observed some of the tracks will be closed making it easier to manage the traffic and the track surface.

In the outback you are expected to not use tracks if you leave even surface ruts, perhaps you should not have used them anyway. A little self policing. We are differnt in this area wher we have heavier trafficing. We always seemed to know when it was to rain round our district as the Shire used to grade particular roads just before hand. We has had different management since and now we seldom get the rain either or as much through areas to the North of us.

Andrew I can't answer for 4wd Vic, but these events are co-ordinated via the member clubs, so If you happened to be a member of a 4wd club then I'm sure something could be worked out.

Cheers

It appears as though I have to be a club member which I am not.

The extensive track clearing program run last year was so succesfull 4x4 Vic are keen to continue with it again this season. It was run through the clubs for ease of organizing (imagine dealing with 100 individual 4 wheel drivers) but there would be no reason a single driver couldn't assist a club in the area of his choice. Authorised chainsaw opperators are particually sort after but any arms & legs prepared to help would be appreciated. Andrew I'm surprised your offer of assistance was ignored. It was a little rushed last year but a coordinator has since been nominated to organize track clearing with DSE & Parks.
Zac.Powell@fwdvictoria.org.au
The association is currently running an accredited chainsaw course for anyone interested this month & no doubt will be another later in the year should the need arise. Sorry for getting off the topic everyone..........you can all return to bagging the DSE again now :-)))
Cheers Craig............

If you don't like your local club you can join the association as a member directly. Given they are one of the few groups lobbying government on our behalf it can't hurt to support them. Their magazine isn't bad and you then get info about the sort of stuff above and training courses etc.

What I find hilarious about the threads on this site & others bagging DSE is that most if not all baggers get their information from media, and polititicians via media.

Some but not all baggers have never been to the places in question or went there once or twice and thought it was nice.

If you look at the issues they are bagged for weather is a huge factor in what they are often criticised for.

With fuel reduction burning the fires that get away usually do so from a hot spot many days if not weeks after the original burn when conditions become perfect for a fire. Fuel reduction burning is a conundrum. You can't burn when it's wet, you can't burn when it's too dry, or when it's windy. You can't burn when it looks like it'll be dry or windy in the future but you really only accurately know the future weather to 3-4 days in advance.

If you burn you get criticised, if you don't burn you get criticised. If you burn and it gets away a week and a half later you get caned on the internet, radio, tv & papers. If you don't burn and you get huge fires in summer you get criticised for not burning.

The thing that annoys me most is that the people doing the bulk of the criticising are journalists (who wind up the public to sell their media or get their channel watched - facts ?? who cares??) and politicians who want their locals to think they care and get re-elected. Sophie Panopolous is a good example.

Most of the knockers know very little about the science of what they are criticising or the complexity of the operation.

I'm not suggesting that the organisation is perfect, nor do I hold that belief. Most organisations and individuals have imperfections of varying degrees.

I think it's an unfortunate trait of human nature that we don't say thanks or commend them for the good work they do (can anyone remember camping in places like the Wonnangatta after it got popular and before the loos were built? or what some of the valleys out of Mt Beauty looked like before they started blackberry control?) bu they just love to get stuck in on the forums like this one and slander away safely behind an internet moniker and the anonymity it grants.

I wonder how many of the critics would be prepared to say the same at the various public enquiries that have been held, or put the same view in a public forum where they are clearly identified and the body in question has a right of reply.

Internet forums are a great source of information, but the level of negative carping about DSE & the like on this one is beyond belief at times. I wonder if I start a positive post on them how far it would get.

Dave

As I am about to drive to Melbourne and Dave has decided that he is the specialist in fuel reductions and I am the person who mentioned it, I thought I should just mention the word 'timing'. The timing is what the DSE people seem to have missed all around, some times the weather forecast is wrong but the timing of decision processes is the one most frequently wrong, whethe it is the time taken for the decision or the time to enact I don't know.

Fuel reductions have not taken place for so long and that has been a problem with the high fuel loadings. When I get back later I will put up a pic of the fuel loadings round the roadsides of Pomonal and the stark reality of the hot burn round the Grampians. When the burns have taken place, the timing has been so fabulously wrong and we have then killed out huge animal and bird populations .

Enough now, I have work to do....

Where did I suggest I was a specialist? I think most regulars have a fair idea that I'm not a firey nor do I work for DSE.

All I did was suggest that not all the brickbats are as well deserved as you are suggesting. And the topic in question predominantly was track maintenance and their performance.

I think you missed my point.

Up home if they burn they get criticised by the locals because the tourists in Bright complain they can't see the autumn leaves for smoke. Then they get criticised by the same locals again in 2003 because all the tourists stayed home after the bushfires in the peak tourist season, and told they didn't burn enough. They can't burn the whole state every few years though, which is what people seem to want.

By the way, fuel load isn't measured in photographs. It's measured in tonnes/hectare.

If you aren't happy with them go see them about it, don't flame them here before you do though. (For all I know you may have done so already.)

Dave

the smoke last week was mostly from unnecessary burning of the forest detritus after they had done the initial harvesting - not from burning off.

Why they couldn't wait until Winter I don't know?

The valley was the prettiest I have seen it. The smoke was the worst I have seen it, and it burns for days.

Ciao for now
Andrew.

I re-read it Dave, I was in a hurry as I said and was wrong in the way it was said. Have done over 500 k today and much of in traffic and with Moses new boots, so I won't say much now either. I know you aren't a firey or a DSE person, ambo, yes. The photo I have woiuld demonstrate the loading on the outskirts of Pomonal, where it was lucky it didn't get to. I know businesses lost there and saw other damage there from the loadings

Andrew, nothing much would burn in winter in the high country at all. Wet and damp forests need a few good dry days to burn a cool burn which is the objective though a lot of the green purists seem to appreciate a really hot burn. Even if it escapes to surrounding farmn land - "after all, you live there, I wouldn't" One of the big things of the extent of the summer Grampians burn was the extent of wild life loss. I have one photo of a pertified possum, dehydrated on the spot, burnt to a crisp like so many other animals.

The objective of the patchwork burns is to block movement or slow down the hot 'wild fire' burns. Some of the observations I believe were for loadings of 30 tonnes of dry burnable material per hectare, where as there are considerably lower ones - 5-8 tonnes DM/Ha in recently burned areas, may be even lower. As Dave observs I am like others, getting my information from political sources and the media if they are actually interested in printing it, which is seldom.

"Crackles, you wouldn't have a clue how many times I clear tracks I guess your one time a year clearing tracks makes you fell better"

Hound Your another nice bloke, You make an assumption about an issue that you have no knowledge about, how do you know that crackles or anyone else on here clears tracks once or a hundred times a year.

4wd Vic has run extensive track operations with the involvement of 4wd clubs and DSE / Parks on a very large scale if this program had not been run at the opening last year we all would have found huge numbers of tracks still closed today.

The rest of us who frequent the high country many times throughout the year also clear tracks as individuals outside of our club involvement on a regular basis.

You self justification regarding your many track clearing operations is an obvious attempt to gratify yourself above others.

You sure as hell remind me of another sanctimonious POM who posts on here looking for self gratification.

Cheers

Actually John, I should have thought self gratification was a process with which you were well familiar :)

Mike Harding

PS. try not to take it all so seriously – it’s not good for your blood pressure and life is just too short.

Pterosaur, It seems I'm the only one being insulted and the workers I now who have worked and still work in this industry, some for over 30 years as road workers, loggers, machine operators and a few work for DSE.

Just because your text book says do it this way doesn't make it correct all the time, the blokes in the field are often the ones with the best knowledge and experience of how to do things but too often management insist do it this way and only this way. Entire sections of tracks get graded when only small sections need attention loosening the stable bases that has been fine for years, happens all the time get out there and have a look, argue all you like the evidence doesn’t lie.

Hound - I said it before - my experience and knowledge is field based - yours is no more than hearsay - by your own account.

Not saying there isn't a place for "text books" (which in my experience of the topics being addressed here are all produced from field based experience) in the scheme of things. Nor am I saying that everything is perfect - it's not, whether it be in DSE, or anywhere else - it's just that your responses to some of the posts from those who do actually know about this stuff show that you don't.

As for insults - calling other's contributions "crap" etc., seems pretty insulting to me.

There you go with your assumptions again I know nothing. Get back to the post, track maintenance procedures in one area might and should be totally different to others I was specific about one particular area. This area I can’t remember being graded at this time of year before (could be wrong), large number of visitors, wet wether and grading doesn’t mix. These tracks now will have to be repaired again – hence my comment waste of money.

But I guess we beg to differ, I guess its easy to comment without even seeing the affected tracks!