Increase engine speed for shower?

Submitted: Saturday, Jun 17, 2006 at 17:39
ThreadID: 35018 Views:2355 Replies:10 FollowUps:14
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Have fitted a shower system to the Patrol (ZD30 engine) but note that the water flow through the heater at idel is pretty much nil, and not a lot better at a few extra revs. I can get things to work if I hold the engine reve up to start for a few minutes, otherwise there is an air lock and nothing happens. Is there a way to hold the Nissan patrol revs up while stationary other than my right foot?

I suspect not being drive by wire, but keen to know if anyone has found a soution.
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Reply By: Member - Ian H (NSW) - Saturday, Jun 17, 2006 at 17:51

Saturday, Jun 17, 2006 at 17:51
If you have poor water flow then I would be looking at the shower pump and maybe air leaks on the suction side. What sort of pump do you have? If it is a Sureflow then check for leaks before the water reaches the pump. Is the water flow from the shower hose clear water or is it aerated water?
I had the same symptom a couple of years ago when I first fitted the shower and that is where my problem was. Good luck.
AnswerID: 178961

Follow Up By: Member - Roachie (SA) - Saturday, Jun 17, 2006 at 18:34

Saturday, Jun 17, 2006 at 18:34
Ian, Not sure and I may be wrong, but I think he is saying that his radiator water/coolant is not flowing enough through the heater to warm up the shower water.

If so, you must remember that with the Patrol you have to turn the heater knob on the dash board, all the way the way to HOT to get the water flowing through the heater element. I believe the 3L has a button on the dash for fast idle too and a mate of mine (Pud and Barb) use that when they use their shower.

If you are using ambient temp water for the shower in this COLD weather, you need to also be aware that it takes several minutes for the water to reach an acceptable showering temp.

If I'm wrong and he IS talking about the shower water not wanting to pump through, then you're probably right about air lock making the pump ineffective. I've had this happen too and solved the problem by fitting a small bulb-primer (like on an outboard motor) on the end of the intake hose. It makes it easy to pump up the initial water to the Shurflo pump.

Cheers

Roachie
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Follow Up By: David from David and Justine Olsen's 4WD Tag-Along - Saturday, Jun 17, 2006 at 19:12

Saturday, Jun 17, 2006 at 19:12
Yes coolant flow is the problem.

Heater knob makes no difference to coolant flow- confirmed by observation.

Several hours is not long enough :-)

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FollowupID: 435264

Follow Up By: David from David and Justine Olsen's 4WD Tag-Along - Saturday, Jun 17, 2006 at 19:24

Saturday, Jun 17, 2006 at 19:24
At idle, the coolant flow is, well, nil.
At a few extra revs, it is not too bad but nowhere near that of a Yota, but sufficient to heat the water as long the Heat exchanger (HX) is at about the same level as the coolant out of the engine, If the HX is mounted such that the water has to flow uphill either upstream or downstream of the HX, then it just doesn't get hot. It is as though an airlock forms in the HX. If I force water backwards through the HX it dislodges the airlock, until next time I attempt to use it.
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FollowupID: 435268

Follow Up By: Member - Roachie (SA) - Saturday, Jun 17, 2006 at 19:28

Saturday, Jun 17, 2006 at 19:28
David,

Might be time to fit one of these......

Site Link
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FollowupID: 435270

Follow Up By: David from David and Justine Olsen's 4WD Tag-Along - Saturday, Jun 17, 2006 at 19:34

Saturday, Jun 17, 2006 at 19:34
Roachie,

I think long term that is the answer, I was looking for something similar. Unfotunately for now I HAVE to make it work TOMORROW. Nothing like pressure is there?

Cheers
David
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FollowupID: 435271

Follow Up By: Member - Ian H (NSW) - Saturday, Jun 17, 2006 at 20:33

Saturday, Jun 17, 2006 at 20:33
Roachie,
Come to think of it,maybe one of these pumps might help the 4.2's with their temp problems under load.
David,
If there is no flow through the HX then maybe the connections to the heater system are incorrect.
Try removing the outlet hose from the HX and connect a length of hose from the HX outlet and feed it back into the radiator at the fill up cap point. Then block off the first hose. Then with the heater valve turned off, start the motor at idle and have a helper (wife) turn on the heater valve and see what flow rate you really are getting. Then increase idle speed and see what happens.
If it is high then maybe the return line from the HX is connected to the wrong spot where the pressure difference is not that great. Worth a try if it has to work tomorrow!
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Reply By: Member - JohnR (Vic)&Moses - Saturday, Jun 17, 2006 at 17:51

Saturday, Jun 17, 2006 at 17:51
David, had you bought a 4.2 most certainly as they have a hand throttle. At about 1200-1300 revs with mine. Sorry anothe penalty with drive by wire.
Cheers,
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John

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AnswerID: 178962

Follow Up By: David from David and Justine Olsen's 4WD Tag-Along - Saturday, Jun 17, 2006 at 19:25

Saturday, Jun 17, 2006 at 19:25
Yeah, thanks :-)

I feel better already :-)

;-)
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Reply By: Member - Omaroo (NSW) - Saturday, Jun 17, 2006 at 18:32

Saturday, Jun 17, 2006 at 18:32
David - If you have any of those plastic "quick-fit" hose connectors on the suction side, get RID of them. They always let in air as they are designed to operate under positive pressure, not suction.

I always find secure screw fittings far superior.

Cheers
Chris
AnswerID: 178969

Follow Up By: David from David and Justine Olsen's 4WD Tag-Along - Saturday, Jun 17, 2006 at 19:13

Saturday, Jun 17, 2006 at 19:13
Chris,

No quick fits mate.

Dave O
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Reply By: dan26aus - Saturday, Jun 17, 2006 at 20:04

Saturday, Jun 17, 2006 at 20:04
David,
if you want to increase your revs, flick the side demister switch( i think ) on!! It will increase the revs for you, but not sure if it will be enough.....

Good Luck
Dan
AnswerID: 178979

Reply By: Michael ( Moss Vale NSW) - Saturday, Jun 17, 2006 at 21:05

Saturday, Jun 17, 2006 at 21:05
David, what type of Heat Exchange did you buy? What you can do is fit the heater hoses in Parallel. The coolant does not have to flow through the heater core as well as the HEU. Obviously if the flow path is shorter it should travel faster due to less resistance. Basically you fit tee pieces in both heater hoses and turn the heater control knob to cold position so all the coolant flows through the HEU. If you have a look at Grungles site, go to Tech section and then to Showers, you will see my setup on a 4.2 with tee pieces .Click on the pics to enlarge and you will see red arrows pointing to the tees, and no cutting of original hoses. It would be similar to the 3 litre although i am not familiar with the 3 litre engine layout. I believe the 3 litre has an "idle up button", Have you tried this? se how you go. Best regards, Michael.
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AnswerID: 178988

Follow Up By: Michael ( Moss Vale NSW) - Saturday, Jun 17, 2006 at 21:15

Saturday, Jun 17, 2006 at 21:15
One thing i meant to ask is what flow through the shower head are you pumping. All you could expect with a diesel engine is about 4 litres per minute and should achieve around 40 degrees. Petrol engines run about 10 degC hotter so the output is hotter. Michael
Patrol 4.2TDi 2003

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Follow Up By: geocacher (djcache) - Saturday, Jun 17, 2006 at 22:15

Saturday, Jun 17, 2006 at 22:15
Hi Michael.

With a Glind HE and an 11lpm pump on my 2.5ltr T/Diesel Courier I can get a perfectly adequate temperature from summer river water using about 800-1000 RPM and even in some places have had to use the flow control to drop coolant flow as temp can get too hot. I started with a "Little Ripper" and the 3-4lpm pump based on the assumption that the diesel temp would be a problem, it wasn't and I got an 11lpm pump for the right price and thought I'd try it.

I dare say that with the shower running flat out it's still limiting the flow below 11lpm but it's a fantastic shower compared with the 3lpm pump. If we want to be more economical with water use we use the shower head slide valve to limit flow. Then we have to drop the revs off though as it runs warmer.

In cold high country water 1000-1300RPM will do the trick no problem.

I had to fit an inline tap in the coolant line to the HE as in some circumstances the water was too hot for the kids. Bore water was one such supply that was a problem - Big Billy Bore in NW Vic. The inline tap fixed the problem. (The Courier/B-series heater control controls air flow rather than coolant flow through the heater core.)

Dave
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Follow Up By: David from David and Justine Olsen's 4WD Tag-Along - Sunday, Jun 18, 2006 at 03:45

Sunday, Jun 18, 2006 at 03:45
Michael

Heater hoses are in parallel with T just as you described, except that I have fitted a vlave to turn off flow to heater, thus forcing all flow through HX. I did this becasue the flow is too low to go both ways.

David
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FollowupID: 435312

Reply By: mattie - Saturday, Jun 17, 2006 at 21:33

Saturday, Jun 17, 2006 at 21:33
David
when we had ours in the rodeo i had a similar prob(with an airlock, as i had it fitted at an angle because room was not in abundance) but after doing some driving the water flow eventually draged the air pocket out. When i fitted it to the nissan i was able to fit it horazontal and had no trouble, i use the heat button(it just revs at about 1200revs) and the water it quite hot, we heat the water by just running the rose in the tub and then turn the car off to shower once the correct temp is reached, this way u can turn the shower on and off to save water with out it getting boiling hot and scolding when it is restarted(if the car is running).

Mattie
AnswerID: 178992

Follow Up By: David from David and Justine Olsen's 4WD Tag-Along - Sunday, Jun 18, 2006 at 03:37

Sunday, Jun 18, 2006 at 03:37
Mattie,

Yeah I was thinking about the fact that all my testing has been done stationary. I will try driving it around and see if that helps. The heat button sounds like the way to go.

Thanks all for your suggestions

David
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FollowupID: 435311

Reply By: Member - Pezza (QLD) - Saturday, Jun 17, 2006 at 23:12

Saturday, Jun 17, 2006 at 23:12
Hi David,

Get your club lock and hook the 'U' shaped end over the bottom of the steering wheel, then rest the rubber handled end on the accelarator, keep extending the lock click by click, ie. pushing the pedal down, until the desired revs are achieved.
Worked with the 2.8ltr.

Avagoodn
Pezza
AnswerID: 179014

Reply By: brian - Sunday, Jun 18, 2006 at 09:37

Sunday, Jun 18, 2006 at 09:37
Davin,i have one of these fitted to my 3l patrol,the heat exchanger sits on top of fuses running north / south on drivers side and the pump is fitted between the radiator and bullbar no tee pices just cut into the heater hose,no air blockages works well,although i have had props with plastic snap on fittings replaced these with brass great. where have you fitted yours ???
AnswerID: 179034

Follow Up By: David from David and Justine Olsen's 4WD Tag-Along - Sunday, Jun 18, 2006 at 09:49

Sunday, Jun 18, 2006 at 09:49
Best results this morning seem to be acheived with the HX horizontal rather than vertical. I had it mounted low down near the exhaust, mounted low on the bracket that holds the carbon cannister. I now have removed the sound deadening pad near the passenger side bonnet hinge and mounted it there.

With Heat switch on it worked OK first time will keep you updated.
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FollowupID: 435328

Reply By: Michael ( Moss Vale NSW) - Sunday, Jun 18, 2006 at 15:09

Sunday, Jun 18, 2006 at 15:09
David, Did you try the idle up button and what brand of HEU?? Michael
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AnswerID: 179064

Follow Up By: David from David and Justine Olsen's 4WD Tag-Along - Sunday, Jun 18, 2006 at 15:18

Sunday, Jun 18, 2006 at 15:18
Yes I finally tried the heat button (idle up) and it works a treat with the unit horizontal. Its a Helton hot water system, not a shower unit (larger). It works bloody well now. I just couldn't get any water flow at low revs, but with the heat switch, it works fantastically well.

Tony at Helton told me the hot water system is the way to go, and he is right. Now that I've got sufficient coolant flow it gets bloody hot. The temperature actually needs regulating with the valve, which is what I have done now. I set the valve arrangement up differently to Tony's suggestion. I have it so if you open the valve it directs some of the flow to the car heater. If you shut it, none goes to the car heater and all goes to the HX.

Cheers to all for helping out, I just needed a way to hold the revs up for long ennough to get good coolant flow. I was cooncerned the heat switch did other things thate may do damage.
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FollowupID: 435355

Reply By: Tim HJ61 (WA) - Sunday, Jun 18, 2006 at 22:20

Sunday, Jun 18, 2006 at 22:20
Coming in a bit late on this one as you've solved your problem, but for others:

Mercedes make a coolant pump for the heater on diesel because there isn't enough flow through the heater core to keep the occupants warm on a cold European morning it seems.

They've got 16mm hose connections and I've bought one to instal for my HE for my vege oil conversion. At normal running, including idle I get from 60° to 70°, sometimes a bit higher, out of the heat exchanger. Photos of my instal are at:
Site Link

I've not installed the coolant pump yet, but suspect it wouldn't do the same job as the Davies Craig pump for replacing the main water pump - different use. The DC unit has 20mm connectors, the Mercedes has 16mm. I bought mine off ebay - Item 8066435731

Using them on a shower, you'd leave it turned off until you needed some heat. Like I said, 60° is pretty normal. Saves running at a fast idle, probably not much of an advantage really.... but heck, it's one solution.

Tim
AnswerID: 179133

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