How to Cook on total fire ban day ?

Submitted: Friday, Nov 10, 2006 at 08:48
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How to Cook on total fire ban day ?

Would like to pose this question looking for suggestions.
Have some left field ideas of my own which I hope to test this weekend but
will first run thru the issue.

In Vic on fire ban days over summer we are not allowed to have any
gas appliances of fires on heat beads or similar things camping even inside
tents etc.

Now in practise almost everbody quietly heats up the billy on a gas flame
after looking over there shoulder.
But last year we tried to do it legally and marginally succeeded by using
one of those 12v camp stoves to heat some pies and pasties.
This was marginal at best and took a long time. I have since researched
these things and while there are a couple of better made items out there
they all use 100w or less and are simply to slow and inadequate to be used often.

For heating water we used one of those little 12v coil immersion heaters.
We have a 200w version, and by dangling it into a 2lt thermos flask to preserve
heat it does and acceptable job of heating water, so that part is covered just.

The only other cooking solution I could think of is to use a gennie or inverter
and power something like a single burner 240v hot plate, or mini oven.

Currently available appliances I have seen however use something like 1500w-2000w so this means you have to have a big gennie like Honda E20 which weighs 24kg wet, cost over $1500 and would struggle to power a hotplate anyhway.
Bit of an overkill.
Perhaps an 13kg E10 honda, combined with a hotplate that had had its element changed by an electrican to 1000w or so may work, but this seems a lot of trouble to go to to avoid the use of the much more practical gas for a few days a year.

240v Invertors in the 1500w range are now sub $500 and could work with the car
running but would be pretty hard on batteries and fuel useage even if only used
1hr per day.

We already have a wire cage arrangement that sits in the engine bay to pre-heat
forzen pies and pasties for the 12v oven , but have not gone down the path
of a proper engine/exhaust based cooker.

Any other suggestions ?

Robin Miller
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Reply By: Frank_Troopy - Friday, Nov 10, 2006 at 09:02

Friday, Nov 10, 2006 at 09:02
Hi Robyn,

On our yacht we run a 600 watt microwave with an inverter. It works a treat.

Cheers Frank.
AnswerID: 204064

Follow Up By: Ozrover - Friday, Nov 10, 2006 at 09:40

Friday, Nov 10, 2006 at 09:40
Frank, good point, most of the camper trailers that I've been looking at are fitted with a microwave oven, I told the missus that I'd pull it out to make more storage room! I might just leave it in for those total fire ban days : )>
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Follow Up By: Crackles - Friday, Nov 10, 2006 at 16:51

Friday, Nov 10, 2006 at 16:51
Yes we fitted a small $85 microwave in the side cupboard of our work F250 running off a 1200 Watt inverter. Has certainly improved the range of food we have for lunch & smoko. Even a cup of soup or coffee only takes a couple of minutes so battery life has never never an issue. Depite getting a rough life in the side cupboard it works very well, to the point where I could be easily be convinced to install one in the rear boxing system of the next Cruiser.........no that's camping.
Cheers Craig............
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Follow Up By: Ozrover - Saturday, Nov 11, 2006 at 10:00

Saturday, Nov 11, 2006 at 10:00
Crackles, I don't particularly like food cooked in microwaves, but for re-heating stuff on the road or for fire ban situations, sound like the go!
What's the minimum size inverter needed to run one??

Jeff
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Follow Up By: Crackles - Monday, Nov 13, 2006 at 21:21

Monday, Nov 13, 2006 at 21:21
Would need to check the wattage required on the back of the Microwave to be sure but the smaller ones (600 watt output) would need around 900 watts input.
Cheers Craig...........
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Reply By: Member - Teabag (Queanbeyan) - Friday, Nov 10, 2006 at 09:03

Friday, Nov 10, 2006 at 09:03
Mate,

You can still use Gas Cookers in a Total Fire ban. Below is an extract from the NSW Rural Fire Service web site....

Total Fire Ban Rules

During a Total Fire Ban no fire may be lit in the open. Fire permits are suspended during a Total Fire Ban. This includes incinerators and barbecues which burn solid fuel, e.g. wood or charcoal.

You may use a gas or electric barbeque, but only if:

it is on a residential property within 20m of the house or dwelling
if it is a picnic area and the appliance is approved by council, National Park or State Forest
it is under the direct control of an adult
the ground within 2m of the barbecue is cleared of all materials which could burn
you have an immediate and continuous supply of water available.
AnswerID: 204065

Follow Up By: Robin - Friday, Nov 10, 2006 at 09:24

Friday, Nov 10, 2006 at 09:24
Hi Teabag

Unfortunately those don't apply in Victoria in the bush

Robin Miller
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Follow Up By: Member - Teabag (Queanbeyan) - Friday, Nov 10, 2006 at 09:31

Friday, Nov 10, 2006 at 09:31
Below is Victoria's Rules...

Gas and electric barbecues provided in public reserves/campsites may be used providing:

the barbecue is electric or gas fired
the barbecue is fixed permanent structure
the area for 3 metres around and above the barbeque is completely cleared of flammable material
an adult is in attendance at all times
a hose connected to a reticulated water supply or vessel containing at least 10 litres of water is on hand.
Portable gas and electric barbecues may be used provided:

the barbecue is located within 20 metres of a permanent dwelling (mobile homes, caravans or tents are not classified as permanent dwellings)
the area for 3 metres around and above the barbeque is completely cleared of flammable material
an adult is in attendance at all times
a hose connected to a reticulated water supply or vessel containing at least 10 litres of water is on hand.
Commercial caterers are required to obtain a special permit from your CFA Regional Office.

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Follow Up By: Member - Teabag (Queanbeyan) - Friday, Nov 10, 2006 at 09:32

Friday, Nov 10, 2006 at 09:32
Here is the Link:

Site Link
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Follow Up By: Robin - Friday, Nov 10, 2006 at 09:44

Friday, Nov 10, 2006 at 09:44
Hi Guys

Yes those rules do not allow use of gas appliances when camping in Vic.

Even BBQ is only allowed near a house and tents vans are specifically excluded.

This is the issue.

Robin Miller
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Follow Up By: Leroy - Friday, Nov 10, 2006 at 09:59

Friday, Nov 10, 2006 at 09:59
'the barbecue is fixed permanent structure'

You could build a bbq everywhere you go. Fellow campers that follow would appreciate it!

Leroy
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Follow Up By: Member - Teabag (Queanbeyan) - Friday, Nov 10, 2006 at 10:28

Friday, Nov 10, 2006 at 10:28
Looks like sandwiches for all you guy's in Victoria?
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Follow Up By: Member - Jeff M (WA) - Friday, Nov 10, 2006 at 17:39

Friday, Nov 10, 2006 at 17:39
It's pretty silly hey, I mean honestly I cannot see an issue using a smaller butane cooker on the tailgate of the surf with my 52L water tank, pressure pump and fire extinguser within arms reach! I think I'll just look over my shoulder if I'm in Vic. ;-)
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Follow Up By: Robin - Monday, Nov 13, 2006 at 08:09

Monday, Nov 13, 2006 at 08:09
Hi Jeff

There are a few views along that line and most are sensible however just like speed limits and so many other things we all seem to suffer because of some lowest common denominator.
It this case it seems easier for rule makers to have a total ban , as the number of people actually affected is low.

Robin Miller
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Reply By: DIO - Friday, Nov 10, 2006 at 09:32

Friday, Nov 10, 2006 at 09:32
Robin, although you are in VIC the following may be of help to you and in particular visitors to SA where you can still use a BBQ on a Total Fire Ban Day. Below is an excerpt from the SA Country Fire Service web page: SA Country Fire Service

ACTIVITY FIRE DANGER SEASON
Can I have a barbecue? Yes. Providing you have;

1. A four (4) metre cleared area around, and above the barbeque.

2. A responsible person in attendance with water or other extinguishing agent on hand.

Some councils allow gas or electric barbeques to be used in caravan parks or cleared picnic areas. Look for signs on notice boards, or contact the council office for advice.

TOTAL FIRE BAN DAY


No. Unless it is a gas or electric barbeque and used only within 15 metres of a dwelling or coastal foreshore.

You must have:

1. A four (4) metre cleared area around, and above the barbeque.

2. A responsible person in attendance with water or other extinguishing agent on hand.

Some councils allow gas or electric barbeques to be used in caravan parks or cleared picnic areas. Look for signs on notice boards, or contact the council office for advice.

Hope this helps





AnswerID: 204069

Follow Up By: Robin - Friday, Nov 10, 2006 at 09:46

Friday, Nov 10, 2006 at 09:46
Thanks DIO , our rules here are more restrictive.

Even those rules only cater for the BBQ picnic set in specific places.

Robin Miller
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Follow Up By: DIO - Friday, Nov 10, 2006 at 10:44

Friday, Nov 10, 2006 at 10:44
Hi Robin, I guess it's stating the obvious, but, I imagine the strict regulations are consistent with the need to (a) cater for most people (b) prevent bushfires (c) save lives and property etc
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Reply By: oldbaz - Friday, Nov 10, 2006 at 10:49

Friday, Nov 10, 2006 at 10:49
How about saving all that grief & having a nice salad & something cold to wash it down. Seriously though, the judicious use of a gas stove in the cleared confines of your camp is unlikely to cause any uproar, out of site of do-gooders may help.
The only reaction will be if a fire should escape from your camp, so common
sense is the way to go. As a member of NSW RFS for over 40 years the only
problems I have encountered on Total Ban days are those persons who light a
blazing fire you could cook a bullock on . regards..oldbaz.
AnswerID: 204079

Follow Up By: draff - Friday, Nov 10, 2006 at 11:08

Friday, Nov 10, 2006 at 11:08
i agree with oldbaz - commonsense is the way to go and lets face it, on a total fire ban day its too hot to eat a hot dinner or drink hot coffee anyway! having a salad and a coldie sounds like the best plan!
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Follow Up By: Member - JohnR (Vic)&Moses - Saturday, Nov 11, 2006 at 14:14

Saturday, Nov 11, 2006 at 14:14
That may be the case in wetter parts of NSW oldbaz but Total Fire Bans in Victoria are for a reason, it is tinder dry at the time! Get that and a northerly wind where humidity last month had been too low to measure, and you could have the state ablaze by someone with even a very small fire.

I agree with your earlier comments though. Have a diesel stove inside Kim and wonder where it fits with the directives. The microwave helps of course, but a Honda or any other genny may emit sparks.
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Reply By: Member - Duncs - Friday, Nov 10, 2006 at 13:28

Friday, Nov 10, 2006 at 13:28
While I agree with oldbaz that commonsense is your best defence, I don't like your chances of convincing an irate, or even just mildly upset, council or National Parks Ranger or property owner who lost his back fence,shed and half his house in last years fire, that your illegal fire is safe.

If you get cought breaching the regs you will be punished. To me it falls into the same category as speed. I travel regularly on roads with little traffic and a 110km/h speed limit. I rarely see a police vehicle on these roads and occasionally my speed will creep up above the 110. Whilst commonsense (and experience, haven't had an accident yet) says I am still safe the guy with the speed camera will still write the ticket if he catches me. And so he should!!

My point is this, if you think you can get away with it, break the rule and get cought don't come crying. Personally I will eat salad. If I am camping at that time of year I plan for the possibility of Tobans and take plenty of "no cook" meals with me.

Duncs
AnswerID: 204114

Follow Up By: Robin - Friday, Nov 10, 2006 at 13:37

Friday, Nov 10, 2006 at 13:37
Not quite with you there Duncs , but I certainly prefer to be legal if reasonably possible, hence this post looking for a practical technical solution.

I think old Baz's common sense does have a part to play , espically as I have been camping on a total fire ban day with rain sleet and snow coming down on the hills above Dargo due to quick high country changes.

In these cases almost all would I think heat up dinner on their gas stoves.

Robin Miller

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Follow Up By: Member - Duncs - Friday, Nov 10, 2006 at 15:24

Friday, Nov 10, 2006 at 15:24
I take your point Robin, I am not entirely without sin on this one myself, but I do try to plan for these conditions as I said earlier.

When the weather does change as you describe, I too have witnessed and been the victim of such changes, there is scope within the legislation, at least in NSW for the Toban to be withdrawn. It often is too, however it rarely gets the publicity that the declaration does. You are also less likely to be spotted during adverse weather as the ranger will be tucked up in the office trying to stay dry.

If possible, and I acknowledge that it often isn't, a quick phone call to the local authority can save a lot of grief. Notifications are usually faxed through to the local fire station and/or police and/or council.

Duncs
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Follow Up By: Shaker - Saturday, Nov 11, 2006 at 09:52

Saturday, Nov 11, 2006 at 09:52
Having just lived through the recent Erica/Moondara fires, I agree with you in all respects Duncs, but my main concern is this, if we are already in the High Country & out of AM/FM radio range, how do we know of the Total Fire Ban?

In my younger days trout fishing, we have sat & waited, whilst imbibing many, many cans of VB, until midnight, then lit our fire & eaten.
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Follow Up By: Member - JohnR (Vic)&Moses - Saturday, Nov 11, 2006 at 14:26

Saturday, Nov 11, 2006 at 14:26
I guess I just have a problem with some people's common sense at times. That is the problem where rulings have to play the part. That said I agree with you guys on everything. I know here we get Total Fire Bans where the cool front has gone through already and it may be cool to cold and even raining as Robin has described.

Will be up in the HC with the Lexics and relos in just over a week and Shaker's comments will be in my mind for common sense.

In regard to gas burners and that sort of thing, I guess it is the thought of a spark that is ever present. I wonder the new diesel stoves, where you actually have an enclosed flame under a ceramic cook top. Have one of those myself, built into the K'van.

There is a sense of wondering I guess, any electrical power from a genny can create a spark or a spark from the diesel heater or water heater.....
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Follow Up By: pjchris - Monday, Nov 13, 2006 at 12:51

Monday, Nov 13, 2006 at 12:51
Generator use is also only allowed under certain restrictions..

The following is from the Victorian Fire Protection Regulation 1992:

13. Stationary engines

A person must not use a motor driven pump, generator or other stationary engine in the open air, or in a temporary structure, or in any circumstances where the exhaust discharges into the open air, in a fire protected area during the prohibited period unless—

a) the exhaust pipe is fitted with a spark arrester which complies with Australian Standard 1019—1985; and

b) the space immediately around and above the engine is clear of all flammable material for a distance of at least 1•5 metres; and

c) in circumstances where the weather conditions in the area are such that there is a reasonable possibility of the spread of fire, there is available for immediate use a hose connected to an adequate water supply, or if there is no adequate water supply

i) a knapsack spray pump with tank capacity of not less than 9 litres which is fully charged with water and which complies with Australian Standard 1687—1991; or

ii) a dry chemical fire extinguisher which complies with Australian Standard 1846—1985.

Penalty: 50 penalty units.

Also see CFA Can I

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Reply By: madcow - Friday, Nov 10, 2006 at 13:39

Friday, Nov 10, 2006 at 13:39
Ok what about the pilot light on a 3 way fridge? The dwelling ie: caravan or tralier is not considered permanent! the cat is among the pigeons so to speak!
AnswerID: 204116

Follow Up By: Crackles - Friday, Nov 10, 2006 at 16:43

Friday, Nov 10, 2006 at 16:43
For a gas fridge the pilot light is contained within the appliance, the same for Coleman hot water units etc so I doubt it would be an issue. Obviously some precautions should be taken to clear any conbustable material from near the unit.
Cheers Craig............
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Reply By: Moose - Friday, Nov 10, 2006 at 14:21

Friday, Nov 10, 2006 at 14:21
G'day Robin
An interesting question we were discussing just the other day. A group of us is headed down to Vic at the end of the year and one guy found out about the total fire ban meaning just that. If it happens I guess we'll have to settle for cold dishes.
But you asked for suggestions. Are there not solar cooking appliances around? But then again the sun doesn't have to shine for there to be a fire ban. And they would be pretty useless early or late, when most cooking usually occurs.
Cheers from the Moose
AnswerID: 204121

Reply By: Member - Teabag (Queanbeyan) - Friday, Nov 10, 2006 at 19:44

Friday, Nov 10, 2006 at 19:44
Thanks Robin, I can honestly say I've learnt something today as I wasn't aware of the various Fire ban rules from State to State.....I will be in Northern Victoria next weekend (Cann River) and I was unaware of the Vic laws wrt this.....

Thanks again,

Teabag
AnswerID: 204182

Follow Up By: pt_nomad - Saturday, Nov 11, 2006 at 07:14

Saturday, Nov 11, 2006 at 07:14
Teabag,
I think that I read you are new to the ACT region - While at Cann River check out Wingan inlet. top spot.
Paul.
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Reply By: Willem - Friday, Nov 10, 2006 at 20:23

Friday, Nov 10, 2006 at 20:23
There have been various ideas thrown around about cooking your food in the engine bay of your vehicle. Put all ingredients in alfoil and tie to exhaust manifold or something like that. A 12 volt oven heats up pies while you are driving and a 12volt kettle boils water(about 30minutes tho...lol).

Or you may open a tin for Bully beef and a tin of baked beans.

Hmm that makes me a tad hungry now.................lol

Cheers
AnswerID: 204192

Follow Up By: Ozrover - Saturday, Nov 11, 2006 at 10:07

Saturday, Nov 11, 2006 at 10:07
Willem, "Bully beef and a tin of baked beans" plus a change of undies was my touring kit when I started this caper Many moons ago. : )> Now it seems that the next rig I get will have to be a B-double!!!
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Reply By: Mike Harding - Monday, Nov 13, 2006 at 13:12

Monday, Nov 13, 2006 at 13:12
Ask the CFA how the boys out in the bush brew up a cup of tea on a TFB day :)
AnswerID: 204645

Reply By: Pajman Pete (SA) - Monday, Nov 13, 2006 at 13:59

Monday, Nov 13, 2006 at 13:59
We tried solar cooking with one of these and it worked quite well. It took about an hour to boil some eggs and cook some baked beans but we were just having fun at the time.

Pete
Any mug can be uncomfortable out bush

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AnswerID: 204652

Reply By: Robin - Tuesday, Nov 14, 2006 at 08:02

Tuesday, Nov 14, 2006 at 08:02
Thanks for Inputs

A few ideas there

As per original post , I had an idea from left field which involved building a better
12V stove , which I tested out on a camping trip over the weekend with sucess
and will present in another post in a day or so as soon as I can type it up.

Thank you
Robin Miller
AnswerID: 204816

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