Cost of LPG injection uneconomic,,,,,,,

Submitted: Wednesday, Jan 17, 2007 at 21:27
ThreadID: 41330 Views:3126 Replies:11 FollowUps:16
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I've been wondering about putting LPG inkcetion on the Chebissan ( I've STILL got the 'flu!!) but it's just not worth it.

I will preface that remark by saying it would be different if I had a turbo in the Chev but I haven't. Plus the Chev V8 is an indirrect injection engine which alos has the POTENTIAL to limit the expecte improvement.

I finally got Mark Collins of DieselGas Australia to return my call and we talked of the expected increase in power/torque and the consequent economy. That's provided you use the extra power in an economical driving style and don't go 'hooning' around in it! Who? Moi?

I could reasonably expect 20% better fuel economy according to Mark. NB - Thats 20% less "total fuel" used per km. "Total Fuel" is diesel and LPG combined - don't forget the extra cost of the LPG ;).

So basing my calcs on that percentage, it would take me 18.62 years to recover the after rebate installation cost of $1,200.00. Cost is $4200.00 minus $3,000.00 from State and Fed Governments.

These figures are based on diesel at $1.20 per litre, LPG at 68 cents per litre and doing about 18,000 kms per annum at an average 5.57 km per litre mileage using just diesel fuel.

T'aint worth it,,,,,,,

Bilbo

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Reply By: _gmd_pps - Wednesday, Jan 17, 2007 at 21:41

Wednesday, Jan 17, 2007 at 21:41
I agree with you ...
I am not really looking at the savings or economy in general .. my main interest was the cleaner burn and less soot in the oil and possible longer engine life but I had no luck so far finding anyone who has done it for my engine and I do not trust the installers with their judgement when they have no first had experience with this engine .. All I got was maybe, perhaps, it could, possibly ...

I used to have a petrol Navara some years back with a gas conversion and had nothing but trouble after 3 years running ... and that was a "simple" engine ..

I guess its more proven on the jap cars, but do we really know about long term factors ? and especially on smart common rail diesels ...

gmd

AnswerID: 216017

Follow Up By: Bilbo - Wednesday, Jan 17, 2007 at 21:56

Wednesday, Jan 17, 2007 at 21:56
GMD,

Have you got a Chev V8 as well? If so, there are several of the Chev V8s that have been done, Dieselgas Australia have done quite a few.

I'm not overly concerned about engine longevity. I'm 60 years old, I doubt I'll be 4WDing for gold prospecting in 10 years time. I throughly expect this engine to last me 10 years or about 200,000 kms without too many probs - sooty engine oli or not. This could be the very last 4WD that I own. It'll be a battery powered 'gopher' to get down the doctors after that!

Besides in 10 years time it may be that none of us can afford the fuel - any fuel!!- to go teararsing around in a gas guzzling 4WD ;)

Bilbo
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Follow Up By: _gmd_pps - Wednesday, Jan 17, 2007 at 22:08

Wednesday, Jan 17, 2007 at 22:08
Nope,

Duramax 6.6 V8 LBZ

gmd
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Reply By: Rock Ape - Wednesday, Jan 17, 2007 at 21:41

Wednesday, Jan 17, 2007 at 21:41
Hey Bilbo,
you have done your the big numbers on the gas, bleep i will be dead and buried e by the time you get your money back, so send me a cheque now.

Old Trucky say( how come trucking companies not adding gas. Have heard they have and have had failures. This should start world war 3 from the believers and non believers.

AnswerID: 216018

Follow Up By: Eddy - Wednesday, Jan 17, 2007 at 22:53

Wednesday, Jan 17, 2007 at 22:53
I would imagine the cost of diesel will be astronomical in 10 years time.

"Old Trucky say( how come trucking companies not adding gas. Have heard they have and have had failures."

I think you speak with forked tounge.
Can't say it both ways.
Please back up your statements with some factual information and case histories.

Do some research.
Many Asian bus companys use this technology.

Gas injection injection, is a catalyst that helps diesel fuel burn very efficiently,
A bit like a turbo charger, only more efficient.

Good for the atmosphere too, burns soot and solid particles.

If you want to start ww3 perhaps you are on the wrong forum.

Eddy.

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Follow Up By: Bilbo - Thursday, Jan 18, 2007 at 00:55

Thursday, Jan 18, 2007 at 00:55
Eddy,

"Asian Bus Comanies" use CNG technology, that's Compressed Natural Gas or Compressed Methane. Are you sure you're not getting confused with that?

Diesel Gas Injection is a different beast. This is LPG (Liquifies Petroluem Gas) is liquid propane, heavier molecular weight and more energy output. LPG is not a catalyst mechanism. LPG is burnt in the combustion. Any catalyst in any chemical reaction does not get consumed in the reaction.

CNG is very good for the environment though. I was working in New Delhi last year and it was amazing how clean the air was. Whereas 10 years ago ya couldn't breathe it in!!

Bilbo
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Reply By: Member - Davoe (Nullagine) - Thursday, Jan 18, 2007 at 00:08

Thursday, Jan 18, 2007 at 00:08
As far as I understand it is usually fitted for the extra power . upposedly turbo like performance for the same money.
By the tie you whackin the tank and lose heaps of space and the weight and the hasel of filling both up I think you have found why people arnt beating the door down for the fitting
AnswerID: 216060

Reply By: Chris & Debbie - Thursday, Jan 18, 2007 at 00:36

Thursday, Jan 18, 2007 at 00:36
It amazes me how everyone is rushing out to get LPG fitted because of the rebate, I may be wrong but, has no one notice that the cost of installation practically doubled once the rebate was announced.
Chris
AnswerID: 216062

Follow Up By: Grungle - Thursday, Jan 18, 2007 at 08:16

Thursday, Jan 18, 2007 at 08:16
Exactly right chris.

When I was doing some 4wd competition work back in early 2002, there were a couple of companies around that were doing the diesel fumigation installations. As it was used in the comp scene I thought I would investigate for my tourer. I could get a setup installed for $2000 with a 30l tank. Altermatively I could get the gear minus the tank from the states for US$600 (company called Powershot) and have it installed here for $1200 with a 30l tank.

Now I am seeing $4000 installations. I don't know if this is an inflated price because of supply and demand or people bleeding us for every cent they can but it really ticks me off because it is the same gear but double the price.

Regards
David
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Reply By: Bilbo - Thursday, Jan 18, 2007 at 01:00

Thursday, Jan 18, 2007 at 01:00
Davoe,

If all ya wanted was extra power to say tow a caravan or a boat I could understand someone getting it done. You'd get the extra power and maybe with better fuel economy - it all depends how you drive it. But if you've already got enough power 'n torque for what you tow e.g. my 6.5 Chev, then why bother if it's gonna cost me more 'n I don't need it.

It'd be ideal for something like a Nissan TD42 (N/A or turbo) or say a Tojo 1HZ motor (N/A or Turbo)

Bilbo
AnswerID: 216067

Reply By: Chris & Debbie - Thursday, Jan 18, 2007 at 01:23

Thursday, Jan 18, 2007 at 01:23
They used to fit two different types of systems to diesel engine, one was for economy where the injector pump was locked at idle this supplied enough diesel to ignite the gas. I do not know if this can be used with modern computer controled engines.
The second type was fitted to trucks where they injected gas only when they needed extra power, for hills or overtaking but was not used much as they found it over stresses the engine and caused engine failure.
Chris
AnswerID: 216069

Reply By: Member - andrew B (Kununurra) - Thursday, Jan 18, 2007 at 07:06

Thursday, Jan 18, 2007 at 07:06
I recentlly got mine done, the little 2.8 needs all the help it can get. Cost of $1225 after rebate. I got 14% more power at the rear wheels by the dyno.....similar to the amout some claim from chipping up. I use the same amount of fuel, but 5l per 100k is LPG at 50c per l cheaper, so I save $2.50 per 100k. It will take a long tome to recover the $1225 at that rate, about 50,000km.

So fro the money, I got an extra 28l of fuel capacity, 14% more power, and possibly a longer (or shorter) engine life. If I went out and got a long range tank It would cost me about $800.00 (although I would get 12l extra than I have with the LPG), and about $1500.00 for a chip. It would have cost $2300.00, and I doubt I would ever get any savings with that.

Well, thats how I justified it anyway

Cheers Andrew
AnswerID: 216086

Follow Up By: Member - andrew B (Kununurra) - Thursday, Jan 18, 2007 at 08:26

Thursday, Jan 18, 2007 at 08:26
Gday Bilbo - Just looking at your figures, and it would seem you will use Just over 3000l pa (18000/5.57). If you had no net saving on km\l, but used 800l LPG and 2200l diesel, wouldn't you save $0.52 x 800l =$416.00 PA - would pay for itself in 3 years.........if my guestimations are correct

Cheers Andrew
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Follow Up By: Pezza (Bris) - Friday, Jan 19, 2007 at 16:03

Friday, Jan 19, 2007 at 16:03
"I got 14% more power at the rear wheels by the dyno.....similar to the amout some claim from chipping up"

Beeeeep ! Wrong.

Motson chip = 27% increase in power and 30 % increase in torque.
Pretty sure I got them the right way around, Grungle will correct me if I'm wrong.

Avagoodn
Pezza
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Reply By: Member - Roachie (SA) - Thursday, Jan 18, 2007 at 08:53

Thursday, Jan 18, 2007 at 08:53
G'day mate,
As some on here already know, the 6.5 Chev powered GU I bought in November already had LPG fitted, so I didn't have to shell out the bikkies for the conversion. It's still too early to be sure (as I haven't done any towing yet), but so far I'm actually using less diesel per 100 klm than I was in the 4.2TD. Admittedly, the figures I have for the 4.2 were overall figures which I accumulated over the whole life of the truck. However, I don't expect the Chev to even notice it's got 1.2t hangin' off the drawbar when I start getting away a bit more. I only switch the gas on if I'm going to do at least a 20klm trip, so around town it just runs on straight diesel.

I can see where you're coming from.....if mine didn't have the gas already fitted, I don't know that I would go to the expense of fitting it. HOWEVER, if I did want some extra neddies and/or economy, I would certainly lean more towards the LPG than a turbo. I would never have said that several months ago!! Owning this new truck has really opened my eyes. And the LPG doesn't make the engine temps higher (unlike the issues that apparently face the turbo'd GU's with the 6.5).

Cheers mate

Roachie
AnswerID: 216098

Follow Up By: Bilbo - Thursday, Jan 18, 2007 at 13:12

Thursday, Jan 18, 2007 at 13:12
Roachie,

How ya going with that CD? Have you got it working yet?

Bilbo
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Follow Up By: Member - Roachie (SA) - Thursday, Jan 18, 2007 at 13:58

Thursday, Jan 18, 2007 at 13:58
G'day mate,

Sorry, very remiss of me not to have updated you......

Thanks very much, the CD worked okay on the work 'puter. I intended to print it all off, but when I saw how much stuff was on it, I changed my mind!!! hahaha

Cheers and that's another beer I owe ya...

Roachie
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Reply By: Dieseljuice - Thursday, Jan 18, 2007 at 12:33

Thursday, Jan 18, 2007 at 12:33
Well i have just ahd my 3.0ltr Patrol fitted with the Gas and in my opinion it is the best $1300 I ahve ever spent!!

1.Heaps more power and torque throughpout the rev range (drives like a petrol now)
2.300klms extra between refills.
3.Cleaner oil and injectors.
4.Less emmisions.
5.No more Turbo lag.
6.20% savings on my fuels costs.
7.Extended oil change..no more need for me to do a 500klm oil change in between services

Now at my calculations now getting 1300klms between refills I will only fill up 20 times per year to do 24,00klms and saving approx $25 each time.
Thats works out to be
20x$25= $500 pa saving
Then no more 5000klm oil changes at $40 a pop for the oil means,
5x$40=$240 pa savings

Thats a grand total of $740 saving per annum.
Therefore it will take me under 2yrs to get my money back, whilst all the mean time having a better car to drive.

Cheers

Tha Juice
AnswerID: 216143

Reply By: Member - Oldplodder (QLD) - Thursday, Jan 18, 2007 at 14:15

Thursday, Jan 18, 2007 at 14:15
Bilbo,

Interesting comment that LPG injection is less effective with indirect injection.
Thinking about it, that is logical I suppose.
The two fuels are likely to mix as much compared to direct injection?
Did you get any more information on that?

I also wonder about electronically controlled diesel injection being more effecient with LPG injection, since the computers can be more easily fiddled to gain an advantage of power and economy.

So with my mechanical indirect injection, I am two steps behind.
AnswerID: 216173

Follow Up By: Chris & Debbie - Thursday, Jan 18, 2007 at 14:59

Thursday, Jan 18, 2007 at 14:59
why would there be a difference between direct and indirect injection when it comes to diesel engines? the only differnce beween the two is that the indirect injection uses a pre-combustion chamber. to burn the fuel instead of incorporating the combustion chamber in the piston and burning the fuel in the cylinder.
Chris
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Follow Up By: Member - andrew B (Kununurra) - Thursday, Jan 18, 2007 at 15:43

Thursday, Jan 18, 2007 at 15:43
Gday Chris

I will gladly stand corrected on this, but I think with the indirect ones the burning front in the combustion chamber can race ahead in the air/LPG mixture, and hit the top of the piston a bit early, with the diesel burning front slightly disjointed and in slightly de-oxygenated air behind.......aparently is still more efficient than diesel alone, but not as efficient as a direct injection engine with the combustion taking place entirely on the top of the piston.

Cheers Andrew
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Follow Up By: Member - Oldplodder (QLD) - Thursday, Jan 18, 2007 at 17:44

Thursday, Jan 18, 2007 at 17:44
Good point Andrew.
So shape and position of pre combustion chamber could make a difference too.
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Reply By: PhilZD30Patrol - Thursday, Jan 18, 2007 at 15:51

Thursday, Jan 18, 2007 at 15:51
Hi

I have Dieselgas on my Nissan ZD30, installed end of September 2006. Unfortunately I have not had the opportunity to travel many ks since but I am pleased I had the installation carried out for the following reasons;

- I am saving money, and estimate I will pay it off at under 60,000 kms. LPG and diesel fuel prices are currently bouncing around due to the holiday season but the overall trend will be up over the next year or 3 I guess but hope I am wrong.

- State and Territory Governments are offering different subsidies. I am saving 25% per year, I think, registration costs, but will have to check my rego papers.

- LPG injection to diesel does produce cleaner emissions. This is very important to me as I am concerned about the environment and try to do my little bit no matter how insignificant that may be. European and UK web sites support the theory that there are environmental advantages of LPG injection to diesel. Also check out the Australian dieselongas web site.

- LPG injection has been used in Europe and the UK for many years in commercial vehicles. Search the internet.

- I now can carry 25 litres more usable fuel safely under the car.

- The engine oil is now staying much cleaner for longer.

- Car starts instantly and drives quieter and more smoothly

- Starting from standstill at traffic lights etc and cruising up hills on the Hume Highway to Goulburn is a dream. Car goes much faster from 0 to 50 kph.

- Turbo lag reduced.

- Ease of driving in 2nd gear low range up very steep tracks has improved greatly, it was always good, now much better!

- Automatic changes and remains in higher gears more smoothly and quicker and stays in higher gears longer before changing down.

- Hopefully the engine durability may be extended as there is some technical evidence that the combustion is more efficient and exhaust manifold and gas temperature is lower with LPG to diesel.

Trust this all makes sense

In the end it is up to the individual but I like experimenting with new and interesting ideas especially if they may offer an overall improvement that may become very popular in the years to come.

Cheers
Phil

AnswerID: 216188

Follow Up By: Peter Johnston - Thursday, Jan 18, 2007 at 19:33

Thursday, Jan 18, 2007 at 19:33
What year is your Patrol?

I have a 2001 GU 11 and Robsons in Perth, when I made a casual enquiry about whether it would be worth converting, they commented that they would not recommend it for that model (presumably because of the problems with GU 11 motors). Any comments?

Peter
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Follow Up By: PhilZD30Patrol - Friday, Jan 19, 2007 at 11:49

Friday, Jan 19, 2007 at 11:49
ATTENTION: Peter Johnstone

Hi Peter

My Patrol is an early 2001 Model, now travelled approximately 133,000 kms.

I have not had any engine problems and it goes well even without LPG injection. I don't know if I can contribute anything more than what I've said above to this discussion. I guess I am just hoping like everyone else that my ZD30 engine keeps going for another 150,000 kms.

Thanks for your email

Cheers
Phil
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Follow Up By: Peter Johnston - Friday, Jan 19, 2007 at 12:42

Friday, Jan 19, 2007 at 12:42
Thanks Phil
I am in the same situation and mine has done 93,000ks. I would be interested to hear how your diesel/gas conversion works out, as I think it is an excellent option and I am strongly tempted to have it done.

Peter
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Follow Up By: Dieseljuice - Friday, Jan 19, 2007 at 12:51

Friday, Jan 19, 2007 at 12:51
$160 for the 3yr/1000klm warranty against any damage that is caused to the engine by having the gas installed. Cover to value of $5000. Not too bad in my books. But like all my searches on the net have shown, they have been doing the LPG fumigation for years with nothing but positive results. Most industries are winding back the diesel and adding gas to about the 70% mark, so the gas can do no harm. Seeing as though the dual sysyem is only adding up to 20% it will be no worries and the 20-25% extra power is no different than all the other engine mods available duch as aftermarket turbos, intercoolers and engine management chips an dno one thinks twice about adding them.

Cheers

Juicearamma
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