Roll cages wouldn't be a bad idea for 4wds.

Submitted: Wednesday, Jan 24, 2007 at 19:34
ThreadID: 41592 Views:4680 Replies:18 FollowUps:26
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Hi

Was in a holding yard today for vehicles that had been in accidents and were write off situations, it would make you sick in the guts to look at some of them realising that some occupants would have had no hope off survival.

what sprung to mind was there was a troopy that had been in a roll over situation in sand somewhere and the roof had collapsed in and was touching the floor pan for 50% of the length of the vehicle, NOT criticising this vechicle their all the same!, but i personally think a roll cage would have saved a life in that situation, and as I ithink about it ALL! vechicles should have one.

Regards Axle.
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Reply By: 4wdNewbie - Wednesday, Jan 24, 2007 at 19:52

Wednesday, Jan 24, 2007 at 19:52
I dunno if a rollcage that is as long as a troopy would be that strong, just because of design. Could be wrong... i dunno... I agree with ya though rollcages would save lives.
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Follow Up By: GaryInOz (Vic) - Wednesday, Jan 24, 2007 at 20:58

Wednesday, Jan 24, 2007 at 20:58
Could also pose a rollover risk om their own, given the dimensions of a troopy (or for that matter other vehicle and how high the weight would be. Also issues of potential injuries caused in high speed accidents by the rigidity of the rollbar structure, transfers more of the "shock" to the occupants, rather than deforming and absorbing some of the force.
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Reply By: obee - Wednesday, Jan 24, 2007 at 19:59

Wednesday, Jan 24, 2007 at 19:59
4wd s are prone to rollover cos of the height. Something to think about when you lift the body or pack a roof rack with heavy stuff. I guess we have to be extra careful about how fast we are travelling and over what ground. More than the average driver.

Owen
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Follow Up By: Bware (Tweed Valley) - Thursday, Jan 25, 2007 at 12:24

Thursday, Jan 25, 2007 at 12:24
Good point, Obee, sometimes the obvious needs to be stated. I'm amazed at the amount of mothers with kids in the back driving the 4wd like a sports car; taking corners too fast, tail-gating etc (apologies to all the responsible women out there).
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Reply By: Robin - Wednesday, Jan 24, 2007 at 20:04

Wednesday, Jan 24, 2007 at 20:04
Its a big issue if you get into it Axle, particularly in 4wds.

I worry when I see a 4wd with a cargo barrier and packed to roofline, as this increases the roll over risk significantly.

Don't know that all should have cages , but there are certainly some 4wds I would not buy because they roll to easily.

Primary safety is way to go (prevention ) and I am glad that the Patrols I choose to drive have highest tilt table test figure (48 degrees).

Also why I shy away from raising car much as I rather some extra scraps underneath than on the roof

Robin Miller
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Follow Up By: Member - Axle - Wednesday, Jan 24, 2007 at 20:41

Wednesday, Jan 24, 2007 at 20:41
Robin.
My feeling about the rollcage after being in this joint today, is just protection overall,( any accident), the light weight materials out there that are so strong i think manufactures would have no problem increasing saftey issues without any major probs at all. But once again price seems to dictate everything.

Cheers.
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Reply By: Willem - Wednesday, Jan 24, 2007 at 21:11

Wednesday, Jan 24, 2007 at 21:11
I think that rollcages are left out of most vehicles because we have to keep the population increase under control to a certain extent.

Those unlucky enough, or those doing stupid things, have to pay the ultimate price.

If we were to save everyone in the world from harm then very soon there will be standing room only.
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Follow Up By: Member - Axle - Wednesday, Jan 24, 2007 at 21:21

Wednesday, Jan 24, 2007 at 21:21
Probably right willem! Nature has its way,

And so do vehicle manufactures.

Cheers.
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Follow Up By: GaryInOz (Vic) - Wednesday, Jan 24, 2007 at 21:33

Wednesday, Jan 24, 2007 at 21:33
Doesn't work on politicians...............................

Not often enough, anyway..
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Follow Up By: kimprado - Wednesday, Jan 24, 2007 at 22:09

Wednesday, Jan 24, 2007 at 22:09
Willem

Your spending to much time with them Flinders Goats my son. Time to go home!

Regards

Kim
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Follow Up By: Hairy - Wednesday, Jan 24, 2007 at 22:18

Wednesday, Jan 24, 2007 at 22:18
Im with you Willem,
You can never stop an accident, Shiit will always happen.

We could all wear crash helmets and drive at 30kms/ph?
If someone feels the need to have a roll bar they should get one but it should be their choice.
Cheers
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Follow Up By: kimprado - Wednesday, Jan 24, 2007 at 23:03

Wednesday, Jan 24, 2007 at 23:03
Hairy

What a load of Scrubby Town crap. You get one minute of water and start believing in the Camel fairies

Vehicles such as Troopys and many other 4WD'S of a similar build should have an internal role cage built into the front compartment to protect occupants (I love my soap box).

Don't believe me? Lets try it after a few drinks.... Your car would be my choice.

LOL

Regards

Kim
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Follow Up By: Willem - Thursday, Jan 25, 2007 at 06:06

Thursday, Jan 25, 2007 at 06:06
Kim

Got home Tuesday arvo after the roads opened again
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Follow Up By: Willem - Thursday, Jan 25, 2007 at 06:29

Thursday, Jan 25, 2007 at 06:29
Hmmmm...I seem to have selective memory.

It has just come to me that I had rollcages on my Daihatsu and Suzuki Soft Top vehicles.

Dislocated my shoulder when I hit the roll cage(even when wearing a seatbelt) after a miscalculation at the intersection of Old McMillans Road and Bagot Road, Darwin, in 1980

Cheers
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Follow Up By: Hairy - Thursday, Jan 25, 2007 at 08:06

Thursday, Jan 25, 2007 at 08:06
kimprado,
Too true..Mine would be you choice....That Toorack Tractor (or the Southern version of ) probably hasnt seen the dirt before. Beside you would have to move the big Latte rack out of the front so I could get in!
Have you got your your "Scrubby Town " permit yet?
I hear they are getting a bit picky, dont just give them out to anybody you know!
A word in the right ear from me might have you detouring around us....Its a nice drive through Pupunya, Yuendamu anyway!
Might give you city dwellers a bit of culture!
LOL
Cheers
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Follow Up By: kimprado - Thursday, Jan 25, 2007 at 15:54

Thursday, Jan 25, 2007 at 15:54
Hairy

Damn! I completely forgot about the permit. I'll ring your Mayor Sheila person (if she's still there) and expedite the matter.

My new pretty little truck (PLT) is not going any where near dirt. I don't want the latte dispenser clogged with dust...! LOL

Regards

Kim
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Reply By: Footloose - Wednesday, Jan 24, 2007 at 22:17

Wednesday, Jan 24, 2007 at 22:17
It may not take much to roll a 4wd. A blown tyre, a sudden change of course to miss another vehicle doing the wrong thing or an animal. Many of these rollovers occur at speed, but you don't have to be going fast for it to happen.
The roof isn't a strong part of the vehicle in a rollover. Cargo barriers have helped in some situations but I wouldn't rely on them.
So what to do ?
Do I have an expensive roll bar installed that will probably not help the c of g anyway ? Will it be worthwhile in the event of a rollover ? Any reliable stats availiable ?
Hmm...another thing to ponder..
AnswerID: 217602

Reply By: Member - Rotord - Wednesday, Jan 24, 2007 at 22:18

Wednesday, Jan 24, 2007 at 22:18
A cargo barrier works well as a rollcage .
AnswerID: 217603

Follow Up By: GaryInOz (Vic) - Thursday, Jan 25, 2007 at 08:40

Thursday, Jan 25, 2007 at 08:40
Don't kid yourself.

19mm square thinwalled tube is never going to be a match for a true roll cage made of 45mm DOM thickwalled tube.............plus the fact that the cargo barrier is tied to the roof, meaning the if the roof gets "shunted" towards the rear of the vehicle, or peeled off any chance of your cargo barrier being of any use as a roll cage is lost. This is in fact why they make the roll cages freestanding and bolted to the floor so that any structural deformities in the vehicle during the accident have no efect on the area around the roll cage (ie YOU!).
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Follow Up By: Member - Rotord - Thursday, Jan 25, 2007 at 13:32

Thursday, Jan 25, 2007 at 13:32
You are offering opinion , and are wrong . There is a well publicised photo of a Disco that rolled and the roof at the cargo barrier is undeformed , the roof forward of the barrier is flattened to the level of a line joining the cargo barrier and the front of the bonnet . The result was a far more survivable situation for all occupants . Sure a purpose built roll bar would be better , but the normal 4WD driver isn't going to have one . The cargo barrier is a practical and very worthwhile alternative .
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Reply By: Off-track - Wednesday, Jan 24, 2007 at 22:43

Wednesday, Jan 24, 2007 at 22:43
I have thought about making my own cargo barrier but using around 40mm tube instead of the somewhat smaller stuff that the bought ones have. Should give more strength without being too rigid.
AnswerID: 217611

Follow Up By: Member - Rotord - Thursday, Jan 25, 2007 at 13:41

Thursday, Jan 25, 2007 at 13:41
Nice to have the beefier tube , but the standard barrier already has increased strength due to the rigid mesh . That is , the barrier is a bulkhead , the rollcage is a ring .
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Follow Up By: chumpion - Friday, Jan 26, 2007 at 00:07

Friday, Jan 26, 2007 at 00:07
Rotord,

The problem with cargo barriers is that they are anchored in only two dimensions - width and height of the vehicle. Deformities can easily occur in the third dimension.

In some circumstances, they would perform excellently, like in a sideways rollover. In other circumstances, like where the car rolls forwards or backwards, they could very well add another layer of steel for rescuers to extract bits of people through.....

Cheers,

Chump
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Follow Up By: Member - Rotord - Friday, Jan 26, 2007 at 01:36

Friday, Jan 26, 2007 at 01:36
Agreed . But you have to play the percentages , and in most situations the cargo barrier will help .
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Reply By: Member - Doug T (W.A) - Wednesday, Jan 24, 2007 at 23:27

Wednesday, Jan 24, 2007 at 23:27
Axle
Good point you raise there, I have been saying the very same thing to people and have written to Politicians about this idea, [ wasted my time ] , What I see is the V8 Supercars in terrific situations , ie Craig Lowndes big roll a couple of years back, the feral tyre into his windscreen , and these guys walk away from it , now I'm not saying the family sedan has to have bars like the V8 Supercars, but an ideal bar for say 140klm accidents , ie trees, poles embankments , and roll overs ,
V8 Supercars don't have head on's ???? , They could be incorporated within the frames and linings and be basicly unseen .

Doug
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AnswerID: 217622

Follow Up By: Member - Axle - Thursday, Jan 25, 2007 at 07:00

Thursday, Jan 25, 2007 at 07:00
Hi Doug,

Totally agree, Have watched the touring car rounds since early 80s, and the number of times a cage must of saved a guys life!. That was a massive hit & roll Lowndes was involved in to say the least, Can't see why a centre roll bar at least could be a standard item.

Cheers.
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Reply By: Off-track - Wednesday, Jan 24, 2007 at 23:49

Wednesday, Jan 24, 2007 at 23:49
Another thing I thought of is that it would be more than likely these 4WD's were engineered without the added mass introduced from all the extras we fit. Even a very strong roll bar would buckle considerably with around 3-3.5t of momentum behind it.
AnswerID: 217630

Reply By: Kiwi Kia - Thursday, Jan 25, 2007 at 07:08

Thursday, Jan 25, 2007 at 07:08
Interesting thought...we fit bull bars when we already have some protection up front but some people totally get worked up when it is suggested that some overhead protection might be a good idea !
AnswerID: 217642

Reply By: mfewster - Thursday, Jan 25, 2007 at 08:06

Thursday, Jan 25, 2007 at 08:06
Now I don't want to start a toyo v patrol war, and I am a toyo owner, but the number of troopies that seem to squash flat when they roll seems excessive. I suspect that Troopies need cages or b good cargo barriers at the very least. Their height/narrow wheelbase probably makes them more roll over prone to begin with, but they seem to squash more readily than other 4WDs once they tip. Any other views on this?
AnswerID: 217650

Reply By: Gerhardp1 - Thursday, Jan 25, 2007 at 09:12

Thursday, Jan 25, 2007 at 09:12
Our favourite fourbys are pretty much all chassis plus body bolted on.

Monocoque designs use the entire body as a roll cage, and obviously some are better than others at this.

My money would be on the monocoque Pajero to be "better" in a rollover than my Jackaroo, and I would rather be in the Jack than in a Troopy in this event.

The problem for engineers in designing vehicles is that what is best for rigorous outback reliability and strength will be a nightmare if things go wrong.

A vehicle that is supreme when things go wrong, eg a Merc A class, will be useless in the outback.

I think putting roll cages in fourbys is just going to consume load carrying capacity for nothing. It would weigh as much as 40 litres of water. If you rolled outback and survived the rollover, the water would keep you alive till help arrived. If you broke down with a nice roll cage but no water cause you could no longer carry it, you might die of thirst.

Drive in such a way that you won't roll is the answer. There are probably more troopy rollovers than any other model (we saw 3 on our CY trip and one Pajero, pre monocoque)
AnswerID: 217668

Follow Up By: mike w (WA) - Thursday, Jan 25, 2007 at 10:29

Thursday, Jan 25, 2007 at 10:29
>Drive in such a way that you won't roll is the answer

I think you have summed it up well. What ever happened to educating drivers on driving to the conditions, vehicle type and their abilities?

It similar to speeding- speed doesnt kill- its innatention, fatigue, poor judgement and the likes. A vehicle doesnt roll just for the sake of it. It comes down to driver error or misjudgement (should I have taken that corner as i do in my commodore??), the way the vehicle has been set up, its design (and possible design flaws) and current circumstances.

It seems that as mentioned previously, that troopys are the favourite for rolling. I always thought that the rollux was the favourite. But you cant blame the vehicle. The driver needs to be aware of the capabilities of their vehicle, regardless of type, beit loaded, unloaded etc, and drive it to suit the conditions.
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Follow Up By: greydemon - Thursday, Jan 25, 2007 at 13:37

Thursday, Jan 25, 2007 at 13:37
Mike w (WA) ....you don't see any irony between your first sentence and the photo at the bottom?

8-)
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Follow Up By: mike w (WA) - Thursday, Jan 25, 2007 at 15:37

Thursday, Jan 25, 2007 at 15:37
LOLOLOL...and I will have you know that I did not roll, thus I was driving in a way that I wouldnt roll LOL

Good point, and yes, mistakes can happen, and they do. But how much cotton wool do we wrap ourselves up in?
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Follow Up By: Bware (Tweed Valley) - Friday, Jan 26, 2007 at 22:37

Friday, Jan 26, 2007 at 22:37
I agree with you, Mike, but apparently lots of people needs lots of cotton wool.

I like your photo as long as it's not raising my private health and vehicle isurance premiums ;-)))))
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Follow Up By: Bware (Tweed Valley) - Friday, Jan 26, 2007 at 22:38

Friday, Jan 26, 2007 at 22:38
bleep , I don't even have private health insurance LOL
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Follow Up By: mike w (WA) - Friday, Jan 26, 2007 at 22:42

Friday, Jan 26, 2007 at 22:42
LOL- nope, but if you had shares in kleenex, they went through the roof after that little near miss!!
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Follow Up By: Bware (Tweed Valley) - Friday, Jan 26, 2007 at 22:55

Friday, Jan 26, 2007 at 22:55
RAFLMAO
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Reply By: marcus - Thursday, Jan 25, 2007 at 09:28

Thursday, Jan 25, 2007 at 09:28
When you have a two tonne vehicle roll over it doesn't take long to bring the roof down to the seats.
Mark
AnswerID: 217675

Reply By: V8Diesel - Thursday, Jan 25, 2007 at 10:38

Thursday, Jan 25, 2007 at 10:38
Not allowed to drive on many minesites without them (not for underground either) and obviously it's a requirement for virtually any type of organised motorsport. That's enough for me. You clearly would be better off with one than without - bit hard to argue otherwise.

On a similar note, after writing off my old 100 series you wont get a bigger fan of cargo barriers than me. I know for a fact that my Milford saved my life. Amazing what a box of Sidchromes will do when slowed from 60kmh to zero in a few feet.

I bought one for my 100 series and will be fitting it up soon. You can pick them up cheap out of the Quokka from time to time.
AnswerID: 217697

Reply By: Camoco - Thursday, Jan 25, 2007 at 13:55

Thursday, Jan 25, 2007 at 13:55
After reading some of the responses to this thread, I got thinking that you COULD almost have it both ways.

You could fit a frontal cage for the driver and passenger only, and still keep the cargo area free. This will still protect the second row paasengers fairly well as the roof would not completely crush.
Further, you could incorporate the cargo barrier as an extension of the main cage by way of two lateral bars connecting both together.

Weight would be less of a factor, cargo capacity is virtually unchanged, and you still get the benefits of improved safety.

If the vehicle were to roll over heavily, the cargo barrier might dislodge but probably toward the rear away from the occupants.

There is no getting away from the vertical post and potential for head banging though. (unless they are incorporated into the body to start with).

Also for those carrying more passengers...... don't take undue risks. Of course you have no control of other drivers.

Cheers
Cam

AnswerID: 217748

Follow Up By: Bware (Tweed Valley) - Friday, Jan 26, 2007 at 22:18

Friday, Jan 26, 2007 at 22:18
That's an excellent idea. 10 points for 'constructive reply to a post' :-)))))
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Reply By: mike w (WA) - Thursday, Jan 25, 2007 at 15:40

Thursday, Jan 25, 2007 at 15:40
So...

whos going to lead this push to get the mandatory roll cages installed in all 4wd vehicles??

An email to scrubby perhaps? ;)
AnswerID: 217770

Reply By: Mark- Friday, Jan 26, 2007 at 22:00

Friday, Jan 26, 2007 at 22:00
Land Rover Defenders (I own one) have a windscreen frame made of weak brittle alloy which snaps very easily thereby absorbing almost no energy. The frame supports the entire front roof space. In the USA Defenders had to have a full external roll cage fitted before they could be sold in that market.
AnswerID: 217964

Reply By: Member - Andrew (QLD) - Friday, Jan 26, 2007 at 22:29

Friday, Jan 26, 2007 at 22:29
It is only a matter of time before Government introduces some form of roof crush protection as standard. Currently subarus have a great system with their B-pillars reinforced with exotic metals and multi-layered steel. An interesting read, from an (US) emergency service rescue perspective can be found here ==> www.drivesubaru.com/Sum06_WhatsInside.htm

Why don't manufacturers just incorporate high strength , high tensile plates into the A and B pillars for rigidity? Price maybe?

Andrew
AnswerID: 217968

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