Bushfire Management

Submitted: Monday, Feb 12, 2007 at 12:52
ThreadID: 42222 Views:2007 Replies:3 FollowUps:9
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Interesting article. I'm not advocating one way or the other but I do believe the last three paragraphs should be read by ALL.
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Reply By: Robin - Monday, Feb 12, 2007 at 13:28

Monday, Feb 12, 2007 at 13:28
Hi HowdyDoody

Not particularly impressed with an article that says we should
avoid the "blame game" over the fires and goes on to put a view about
effect of cattle grazing"

This sort of logic is designed to set up anyone who has a different opinion
as being in the "blame game".

Personanly I would be happy to take on anyone over the following statement.

Since publication of , "The alps at the Cross Roads" in early 70's which began
a slow lock out of civilization from the high country, there has been an
overall increase in the fuel load, and its consequences".

Robin Miller
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Follow Up By: HowdyDoody - Monday, Feb 12, 2007 at 13:33

Monday, Feb 12, 2007 at 13:33
Hi robin,
As I stated, I'm not advocating one way or the other. I found it to be an article that made me consider things I had not considered before.
As for alpine grazing, as I have mentioned on here before, I think the gov. should have implemented plans to manage the consequences of ending grazing before actually doing it.
As for the consequences of the overall increase in fuel load - is this an unnatural thing? Are the consequences not something that should actually be occuring and not be viewed as an argument against ending of alpine grazing? I understand the implications for protection of business and lives etc, however it just may be possible that our actions for the last couple of hundred years were wrong...
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Follow Up By: Robin - Monday, Feb 12, 2007 at 14:00

Monday, Feb 12, 2007 at 14:00
Hi Howdy

Understand, your just exploring the issues.

From the work I've done it seems to me that our actions over last
150 yrs have helped but that as we started to reduce them over last
30 years then things have slowly got out of hand.

Some of these things depend on how long term a view you take.

We have come to the belief that fires and indigenous practise
of regular burning off is the norm. However there is a lot
of scientific support for the arguement that the large extent
of Eucalypt forest across Australia is un-natural and partly
caused by those practicies over thousands of years.

Robin Miller
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Follow Up By: HowdyDoody - Monday, Feb 12, 2007 at 14:07

Monday, Feb 12, 2007 at 14:07
I have heard that (and seen it on documentaries). I guess then the issues to consider become far bigger. What do we do now, do we try to return the continent to it's original state and how far back do you go in order to decide it's the original state. Then there's the issue of climate warming - just how far can we go before cliamte change prevents us going any further.
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Follow Up By: Robin - Monday, Feb 12, 2007 at 16:03

Monday, Feb 12, 2007 at 16:03
Well Howdy, we have introduced people and hundreds of millions of hard hooved
animals so I think there is no real going back.
Some of the issues fight against each other, grazing for example implies less
trees and less burning.

With climate change I can only look at the body of evidence and go where
that leads, and one important piece of data I haven't got a grip on, is
how much local benefit can we in Australia cause to happen !

I.E. assuming the world temperature rises 5c by 2100, if we do all the right
things can we limit our local change to say 3c, or are we so closely connected
to the rest that it will still be about 5c here to ?

If our actions can limit our local rise then I would rush headlong down that path, as self interest is one of few motivators that can move populations.

Realistic prices on water and carbon will be early starters followed
by Nuclear power, and should assist a move towards conservation
of resources and energy, which is what we must do medium term.

Robin Miller
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Follow Up By: HowdyDoody - Monday, Feb 12, 2007 at 16:09

Monday, Feb 12, 2007 at 16:09
I was having this very discussion with other half on the weekend while we were camping (and looking at the mess left behind by previous campers). I think there is a relationship between the sentiment about rubbish left behind and the general apathy shown by some in relation to keeping camp areas clean for other and the climate in general. I know it is a long shot but I figure it like this.
If me on my own is not going to change the total outcome of climate change and Australia on it's own cannot make a big impact on a global level then that is not reason not to stop polluting. Like the campers that leave rubbish behind, why should they just keep doing it because everybody else does. My attitude is the same for camp grounds as for day to day life. I can rest easy knowing that no matter what else comes to pass, I have done what I can. Whether it be leave a camp site clean or the little things like boiling the kettle (we are on green electricity) to fill the pot on the stove so we use less gas (which is not green). I do what I can and what other campers and/or countries do make no difference. 'Because everybody else does' is no excuse for leaving toilet paper around a camp site or pollution in the air!
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Follow Up By: Bonz (Vic) - Monday, Feb 12, 2007 at 20:54

Monday, Feb 12, 2007 at 20:54
What I understand to be the case is, that we cant do all we can to limit our rise to 3 deg and let the "rest" of the world live with 5. If we do that then we live with 5, its not an us and them arguement, its a holistic view for the climate of the planet.

So it may be worth spending $100 million in China to save 40 million tonnes of carbon into the atmosphere, rather than spend $100 million here for 4 million tonnes. Its not a them and us proposition, its we. And THAT is THE hardest thing for some people to grasp. IMHO
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Follow Up By: Robin - Monday, Feb 12, 2007 at 21:29

Monday, Feb 12, 2007 at 21:29
Hi Bonz

We can certainly create a localized climate well, I believe we are not sure wether it can be 1/2 , 1, or 2 degrees lower.

Robin Miller
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Reply By: nickoff - Monday, Feb 12, 2007 at 14:03

Monday, Feb 12, 2007 at 14:03
"This capacity has been hardened over millions of years of evolution on a flammable continent. However, the ability of Australian ecosystems to cope with occasional major fires has been compromised by clearing, ferals, fragmentation, logging and grazing."

I assume by ferals, they mean animals?
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Follow Up By: HowdyDoody - Monday, Feb 12, 2007 at 14:05

Monday, Feb 12, 2007 at 14:05
I must admit the same thought did cross my mind. Made me chuckle. I reckon they could be referring to both based on my experiences visiting camp grounds where ferals have been before us and leaving the bush in the state they do...
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Follow Up By: Bonz (Vic) - Monday, Feb 12, 2007 at 20:55

Monday, Feb 12, 2007 at 20:55
i reckon its the logging protesters, only ferals I know of up that way.
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Reply By: Ken - Monday, Feb 12, 2007 at 22:12

Monday, Feb 12, 2007 at 22:12
Hi HD, there are as you say many issues here and I'd be a bit wary of the fairly obvious bias behind the article. That said there is no doubt man is having an influence on nature and has done forever, the rate may be a bit quicker though these days ! But what is there to do ? Go back to living in the trees ?
One of the big issues missed in all of the fire and grazing debate is not how much the cattle actually ate, as far as I know cattle have never eaten the trees! It is the change to the management of land grazing over the last 25-30 years that had had the impact. There has been a determined effort from land managers in both Vic & NSW to suppress fires. Part of this strategy was to stop cattlemen conducting their regular burn-offs to get rid of scrub and encourage new grass. Another was the great reduction in management burnoffs due to lack of staff and sadly expertise. The result - a massive fuel build up. Not just since cattle were excluded, this was only recently, but for nearly 3 decades. The resulting fires are now catastrophic, they are not able to be stopped by the traditional methods of fire breaks and as seen recently burn for very long periods. The massive breaks that can and are constructed with modern earthmoving plant are themselves a form of destruction and have considerable impact of the ecosystems.
The "playing histrionic blame games is pointless" comment may well be the writer's view or equally an attempt to shift the focus from what must be seen as a failed strategy for the reduction of fire impact.
My question is what have the land managers learned from all the destruction ? With the 2006/7 fires burning larger and longer than the 2003 fires I'd say not much.
Lightning will always set fires and sometimes man's stupidity too, so the bush will always burn. How damaging the fires will be will depend largely on the fuel and weather. There is only one of these elements we can control and I think the dreamy, naive approach of locking up huge land areas and then leaving them to nature will only go on producing the results we are seeing.
Ken
AnswerID: 221318

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