Coromal P653S cross country

Submitted: Wednesday, Feb 14, 2007 at 00:44
ThreadID: 42289 Views:3787 Replies:11 FollowUps:12
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If anyone is interested,paid $6000 deposit on one of these due for construction in May 07. Was unhappy on viewing a like model and have had my deposit confiscated. Total cost would have been $66K. Legal costs have now hit above $2000 and Coromal have wiped me because it is between me and the dealer at Loganholme. My problem was their undercarriage on their "off road" model which their warranty does not cover off road. Because it does not go "off road". Buyer beware. Any comments.
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Reply By: Tony - Wednesday, Feb 14, 2007 at 08:24

Wednesday, Feb 14, 2007 at 08:24
Surely its not the dealer that makes them, but Coromal. The dealer is just the go between who gets the commission on the sale, so where did the deposit go!

Mate, i'd up the dealer for the rent, even if there is such a thing as a fee to cancel, and when you win they pay costs.
AnswerID: 221596

Follow Up By: Andrew from Vivid Adventures - Wednesday, Feb 14, 2007 at 09:47

Wednesday, Feb 14, 2007 at 09:47
The dealer does a lot more than get the commission unless they are acting as a sales agent for Coromal which is unlikely.

The purchaser has a relationship with the dealer first and foremost - the dealer made representations about the product; the dealer took the deposit - not on behalf of Coromal (even though the dealer may well have a similar commercial arrangement with Coromal).

Sure, the deposit may be non-refundable, but as other people in this thread have indicated, you have since determined that the warranty, which you didn't know about beforehand, will not cover you for the intended purpose.

If the dealer didn't work out what your intended purpose was, and didn't tell you that the warranty would not cover you for it, then it is an issue of Misleading and Deceptive Trading - not that they even intended it, just that they allowed it to happen by not ensuring you were fully aware of the issues.

I would have thought a clear letter to the dealer; a rational conversation with the dealer principal and if need be, some help from your state's consumer protection agency should ensure that your deposit is repaid.

It is not an issue of Coromal's making, except that they have a limitation on their warranty. I hate the idea of spending money on lawyers when it should be a simple thing ... anyway, hopefully this helps, and you get the outcome you want.
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Follow Up By: JimDi - Wednesday, Feb 14, 2007 at 10:35

Wednesday, Feb 14, 2007 at 10:35
The dealer took the deposit. It is the dealer I have to chase thru the legal system. Only reason I paid a deposit in the first place was to get into their production schedule. Coromal insists it is between the dealer and myself. Unfortunately under Qld law once a deposit is paid you enter into an agreement. I did not sign a contract by the way. Qld Dept of Fair Trading is a toothless tiger the only suggestion they came up with was to seek independant legal advice.My reason for cancelling was because I had ordered an off road van insisting it be capable of driving for long distances on corrugated roads. On viewing the particular model I decided that it was not capable of this type of travel. Coromals warranty appears to back my opinion. Coromals telephone comments on its warranty conditions and I will quote "we have to allow for the idiot factor."
But my attitude now is that the glass is half full, meaning I may have lost $8000 but have saved $66000 by not going ahead with the purchase.
JimDi

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FollowupID: 482337

Reply By: Member - Wim (Qld) - Wednesday, Feb 14, 2007 at 08:30

Wednesday, Feb 14, 2007 at 08:30
Morning Jim.

The van you speak of, is that "Dirt Road series"?

Fit for purpose? I have read of others getting refund because not fit for purpose.

Regards

Wim
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AnswerID: 221598

Reply By: JimDi - Wednesday, Feb 14, 2007 at 10:46

Wednesday, Feb 14, 2007 at 10:46
Morning to you too Wim,
I am not sure if it is a dirt road series. But the model in question is advertised as an "off road" van . It was supposed to be a beefed up version of their on road models. Coromals warranty though specifically states that damage incurred via travelling on corrugated roads etc will not be met. Coromal staff have tried to imply that the warranty "may" not be voided under these conditions but their warranty does not say "may not" it says "will not".
I offered an amount when cancelling the order for any inconvenience that I had incurred but this was refused and the whole deposit was retained.
Jim
AnswerID: 221616

Reply By: Motherhen - Wednesday, Feb 14, 2007 at 15:36

Wednesday, Feb 14, 2007 at 15:36
Hi JimDi - OUCH - 6 thousand times OUCH. I feel the pain from here.

You have no doubt looked into this; i don't know Qld equivalent. In WA our department covering consumers and fair trading has a small claims medium that covers claims of $6,000 or less, very low cost, and mediation style - usually resulting in both parties bearing some proportion of the disputed amount. A claim lodged against a company can have an adverse effect on them if say seeking finance.

Another approach if all else fails: As the deposit has been made to a private business, would it be transferable to another caravan in their yard? You may be able to then 'spend' it on a cheaper but sound second hand caravan or camper, and re-sell this to recoup some of your loss.

It does make me angry to see caravan manufacturers advertising "off road" models that then have the qualification that they are only suitable for occasional off the bitumen use, but not corrugated or rough roads. They are getting away with this deceptive practice by disclaimers in brochures and in labels in the boot or somewhere on the caravan.

When we went looking for a caravan, we eventually discounted all of these by comparing the structure and chassis, but we would also have invalidated the warranty if we drove any of these so called "off road" models home on the shire road to our front gate.

Sure hope the legal sharks don't get any more from you - sounds like a they win you lose situation. I hope you have the strength to keep fighting until you get some sort of justice. It seems logical to us here in the real world, that if a van called 'off road' is not fit for the purpose if it is not designed to be used in an off road type of situation in entirety, and if not fit for the purpose, you should get all your money back. Good luck and keep fighting.
Motherhen

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AnswerID: 221677

Follow Up By: JimDi - Tuesday, Feb 20, 2007 at 12:01

Tuesday, Feb 20, 2007 at 12:01
Motherhen,
Thanks, I am really regretting going near a caravan manufcturer or dealership at the moment. Computer has been off air for a few days so sorry for delay in replying. I was told that the van was a new concept only to find that the technology was 40 years old. Worst of all "the trip" has now been postponed indefinately until this is resolved and we get the urge again.
Regards
JimDi
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Reply By: Keith_A (Qld) - Wednesday, Feb 14, 2007 at 19:21

Wednesday, Feb 14, 2007 at 19:21
Hi Jim - Hope you get some satisfaction at the end of the day.
The word off-road means different things to different people.
To some it means the Gulf or the CSR (Canning Stock Route).
Some purpose built vans may be able to withstand those conditions (eg Bushtracker or Kedron).
For most of us, the words mean outback station tracks, 4WD roads and beach work.
A manufacturer must select their words carefully if they warrant their product 'off road' - by strict definition off-road means going where there are no roads - a tough ask of any van. Other than Hummer, most vehicle warranties would probably also be invalid in true 'off-road' conditions.

We have a Coromal Poptop - offroad, and before that a Coromal campervan. In all our 'off-road' trips they performed faultlessly. (Almost every trip we take is 'off-road' - meaning 4wd access roads, cattle properties, National Parks etc). (No connection with Coromal, just pleased with the product.)

Perhaps decide what the words 'off-road' mean for you - eg where you want to go, then use that to decide on the construction of the van. Very few of us really need a V12 Hummer (excluding Roachie), so perhaps a less stringent specification will serve.
Best of luck in resolving the dealer issue.......regards...........Keith
AnswerID: 221738

Follow Up By: JimDi - Tuesday, Feb 20, 2007 at 12:11

Tuesday, Feb 20, 2007 at 12:11
Keith,
Thanks , my definition of off road is very similar. Mainly dirt roads etc. Nothing out of the box. I had insisted that the van be capable of long trips on corrugated roads , and I drive to the conditions believe me, but on questioning the dealer when I viewed a similar van I was taken aback by their attitude. I had been assured that this was a new concept but as it turned out the technology is 40 years old. My main objection came about because I had been asking for some 5 months to view a finished model,only to be told that none were available. I did not sign a contract for this very reason. But as they say you are never too old to learn. Sorry for the delay in replying my computor has been off air for a few days.
Regards
JImDi
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Reply By: Member - Norm C (QLD) - Wednesday, Feb 14, 2007 at 19:34

Wednesday, Feb 14, 2007 at 19:34
Jim, you are probably already aware of this, but the Qld Small Claims Tribunat covers disputes up to $7,500.

From your description, this is clearly an issue of a product not 'fit for purpose'. As I understand it, you made it clear when you ordered the caravan that you wanted to take it off bitumen roads and the seller recommended, or said this van was suitable for that purpose. Since that time, you have learned (by reading the manufacturers warranty) that this is not true. If the van was suitable for off bitumen use, the manufacturer would warrant it for that use.

Check out this link. Making a claim is simple and cheap. You have nothing to lose. An advantage of the Small Claims Tribunal is that lawerers are not permitted.
http://www.justice.qld.gov.au/courts/factsht/C07SmallClaims.htm#2

AnswerID: 221741

Follow Up By: Member - Norm C (QLD) - Wednesday, Feb 14, 2007 at 21:55

Wednesday, Feb 14, 2007 at 21:55
Another go at the link. And of course it is lawyers who are not permitted.
If link doesn't work this time, copy and paste to browser. It has me beat.
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FollowupID: 482507

Follow Up By: Member - Norm C (QLD) - Wednesday, Feb 14, 2007 at 21:56

Wednesday, Feb 14, 2007 at 21:56
Site Link
Bugger. you have to post the link for it to work don't you.
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FollowupID: 482509

Follow Up By: JimDi - Tuesday, Feb 20, 2007 at 12:16

Tuesday, Feb 20, 2007 at 12:16
Norm,
Sorry for delay in replying. I will have a look at the site. Solicitor has been put on hold at the moment because costs could reasonably escalate to $30K. Phone calls to Coromal have seen them distance themselves further.
Regards
JimDi
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FollowupID: 483723

Reply By: FZJ 80 - Wednesday, Feb 14, 2007 at 21:20

Wednesday, Feb 14, 2007 at 21:20
JimDi,

Such a shame, i feel for you. My personal view is that as a legit business they should refund your deposit if they are not locked into taking the van build from coramal, minus a reasonable handling fee. If the yard does not have to take the van they are in my opinion mean and nasty profiting on you to the tune of 6k. Different story if they have to take the van. Then i think they should maybe hold the deposit until van sold (If it isn't something they would normally stock) and if they sell it with reasonable profit then return all or a resonable amount of the deposit. Just my view. I hope it all works well for you.
Also i personally try and avoid lawyers as costs often erode what you are trying to achieve.
By the way, at the end of it all it may be worth looking at Kedron vans, fairly serious off roaders.

Good Luck

Greg
AnswerID: 221770

Follow Up By: JimDi - Tuesday, Feb 20, 2007 at 12:24

Tuesday, Feb 20, 2007 at 12:24
Greg,

Kedron is now on our list to look at as well as 2nd hand vans. When we get past this little interlude in our planned retirement.
The van in question was not due to be built until may 07. It was cancelled in Nov 06. Dealership has had $6500 since Aug 06. My view at the moment is that I regret ever going near a manufacturer etc. Doubt if I will ever visit a caravan show again.
The real eye opener has been the aggressive and non caring attitude of all concerned. Business must be good.
Regards
JimDi
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FollowupID: 483725

Reply By: Member - Monty W (WA) - Wednesday, Feb 14, 2007 at 23:16

Wednesday, Feb 14, 2007 at 23:16
Hi JimDi
I checked Coromals web site and came up with: The P6535 is in the Princeton range
which is not, as far as I can make out, an Off Road van. Generally Coromals Off Road series go under the Pioneer banner. Here's the link if anyone is interested.

Site Link

Monty
AnswerID: 221796

Follow Up By: Muzzgit [WA] - Thursday, Feb 15, 2007 at 00:38

Thursday, Feb 15, 2007 at 00:38
Even in the Pioneer range, their brochure states that "off road" means "not off road" if you can understand gobble de gook.

I looked at the Pioneer camper range before Xmas and came to the same conclusion about them as I have about Jayco campers.... built to a price, the same mistakes over and over again, and lots of room for improvement.

Anyway, JimDi, give 'em hell!

Give 'em absolute hell.

Give 'em so much hell they will rue the day you walked into the yard looking for a van. And don't leave Coromal out of it, it is their product that was misrepresented.
If that's what it takes to get your money back, drag as many people into it as you can....Just what the dealer wants - BAD PRESS.
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FollowupID: 482551

Follow Up By: JimDi - Tuesday, Feb 20, 2007 at 12:29

Tuesday, Feb 20, 2007 at 12:29
Monty,
Sorry for the delay in replying. The van in question was an on road but the new concept was to strengthen the body etc and add an off road chassis. It sounded suitable to us because we had done some off roading over the years with two camper trailers but wanted a little more comfort at this time in life.
I am not sure if I can give them hell but they will become sick of hearing from me.
Regards
JimDi
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FollowupID: 483726

Follow Up By: JimDi - Tuesday, Feb 20, 2007 at 12:51

Tuesday, Feb 20, 2007 at 12:51
Muzzgit and Monty,
As an aside the first comment we made to the show stand salesman was that we were looking for a large "off road" van capable of long distance travelling on badly corrugated roads. It had to have shower toilet etc.
Where we went wrong I am now convinced was going to the caravan show.
I have had purpose built campertrailers constructed in the past and the trouble with this is that there is a certain amount of goodwill and trust involved.
Regards
JimDi
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FollowupID: 483730

Reply By: Bilbo - Thursday, Feb 15, 2007 at 13:11

Thursday, Feb 15, 2007 at 13:11
JimDi,

I recently had exactly this type of dispute with my insurance company over a stolen ‘Cruiser. Some of you will remember that well documented fight – which I won!

It seems as if you’ve already started the process, but here’s what I would have done and done it without a solicitor. There’s a big advantage in doing this yourself – it costs nothing and sends a very important message to the dealer – it’s costing you nothing so he’s got no leverage there that could force you to back down. But it could cost him a lot of money for legal costs, possibly more than the actual deposit of $6,000.00, and his reputation in the market place.

Firstly - formulate a plan.

Next, I'd tell the dealer where you're going with this. You must write to the dealer and I’d copy to the Coromal Sales Manager. But when you write to them, stick absolutely to the facts with no hearsay, no libel and no slander. Before you write to them, try and remember every single detail of every conversation you've had with both Coromal and the dealer - and then write it down. Use MS Word to keep a running commentary of everything that's been said and done. This is vital - do not rely on your memory, it will fail you.

Then compose a strictly factual letter. No threats & no abuse as these things will backfire on you when it goes to court. End the letter by saying where you’re going with this – The Small Claims Tribunal for misrepresentation and “not fit for service as advertised or stated”. Tell them they have 14 days to reply and after that you’ll commence the legal proceedings if you do not receive an answer that includes an offer to repay the deposit in full.

If and when they contact you keep up that log of all that’s said and done to you. Annotating everything said and done, dates and times, names and titles will stand up very well in court. It will enable you to be clear and concise in your presentation, it will show the judge that you are seriously aggrieved about the issue. This last item carries a lot of weight in a court. Judges and the court system have a lot of work to get through, they can't be bothered with waffle - having accurate notes helps the judge.

Do not tell the dealer or Coromal anything that you don't have to tell them. If you're going to lodge a claim against them via The Small Claims system, do not threaten them that you are GOING to do it - just DO IT and let the system do the work for you.

"Name and shame is dangerous game" and I wouldn’t do it until you’ve got the cheque in your hand or (perhaps) you’ve lost the case. Following either of these outcomes – “Name and Shame is then the game”. Plaster the dealers name over every forum you can find – 4WDs, caravans and camping forums. There’s also a heap of “Not good enough” and consumer type forums that you can make use of. But make sure you stick to the facts – libel is expensive. It will also give you a modicum of satisfaction ;)

It was only attention to detail that got me across the line with a $47,000.00 insurance claim. It will get you across the line too, because most sales people of this type think that we’re stupid and we’ll roll over and accept what they say. It’s this attitude of these offenders that causes them to lose the case because they get sloppy and complacent about it. You’re just another punter to them. Don’t be “just another punter”

I’ve also won cases in the Western Australian Mining Warden’s Court, The Traffic Court, and The Magistrates Court for Rental Proceedings, precisely due to detailed presentation on my part and sloppy bluff and bluster on their part.

I actually enjoy this type of stuff as I detest their arrogance and that’s what motivates me to screw ‘em. Too many of us let the system walk all over us – go for it and good luck.

Bilbo – “The Troublemaker”
AnswerID: 221873

Follow Up By: JimDi - Tuesday, Feb 20, 2007 at 12:42

Tuesday, Feb 20, 2007 at 12:42
Bilbo,
Sorry for the delay in replying. I am still taking in your reply and it seems the more I look at it the more sense it seems to be making. As I have been told by my friendly solicitor that costs (estimated) may/will blow out to $30K.
That is half the cost of the van in question plus the deposit with no end in sight. All I can say is that business must be good. I am now on a fast learning curve when it comes to consumer rights or the lack of them.
I will withdraw and think about your advice and try and adapt it to my situation.
Regards
JimDi
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FollowupID: 483728

Reply By: JimDi - Tuesday, Feb 20, 2007 at 12:59

Tuesday, Feb 20, 2007 at 12:59
Thanks to all who replied. I dont know where this will end up but as stated by our solicitor costs could blow out to $30K.
So its time to go back into the bunker and think about what to do. In thinking about the process I have had custom built "off road" campertrailers built in the past. The system has worked fine because of a closer relationship. A certain amount of goodwill and trust is involved and needed to ensure the process reaches a satisfactory conclusion.
At this point in time I am just sorry I was not busy on the day of the caravan show.
Our retirement is on hold for another year at this stage. So I guess one is never too old to learn a lesson.
Regards
JimDi
AnswerID: 222891

Reply By: Bilbo - Tuesday, Feb 20, 2007 at 18:47

Tuesday, Feb 20, 2007 at 18:47
Jim,

Good on ya for taking it on yourself. It's really not that hard and consumer issues are small fry to courts and therefore no lawyers are allowed in most cases. However, this reduces your leverage a bit because now he doesn't need a lawyer in court either! Though he may have to pay for legal advice external to the court.

Try and get evidence from other van yards and owners about that particular vans suitability for "off road" work. Be subtle and don't tell the van yards why you are asking. Look like a potential buyer. Try and formulate a definition of "off road". Is it just along the beach or is it "up the side of a very rocky hill"?. I own an 11' 6" Supreme Getaway Offroader Caravan and it's built like a tank underneath, therefore the defintition of "up the side of a very rocky hill" is more suited to it than a "normal offroad van". This thing HAS gone "up the sides of very rocky hills" and lives to tell the tale regularly.

After all, "off road" is exactly that - OFF THE BLOODY ROAD! Which means, NO ROAD, NO TRACK, NOTHING - just cross country. If Coromal won't warranty that van for this type of work then it doesn't meet the description of "OFF ROAD". By definition, it is therefore "not fit for service as advertised AND SOLD TO YOU ON THAT BASIS". The deposit was taken from you on the basis of "Fit as defined by them". Therefore, the deposit was taken under a falsehood.

Correct use of the English Language is vital in these sorts of cases. It carries a lot of weight. Precise defintions carry more weight than someone's idea or perception of what something does or doesn't mean.

Research a bit of contract law. It is Common Law that all contracts be negotiated and undertaken 'in good faith by both parties'. They haven't shown 'good faith'.They've conned you.

Get a lot of other opinions about this van and it's limits compared to what you actually wanted from a van.

Get Coromal brochures and read the descriptions of wthat they say it can do. Get photos of similar vans, taking in the stickers on the sides of the vans. If it says "off road" on the stickers and yet Coromal say they won't warranty the van for "offroad work" then not only has the dealer conned you but Coromal have as well. So include them in the loop as well. Even the stickers can be held to be "misleading" is the above is the case. The ordinary punter such as you and I rely heavily on the manufactuers advertising and other blurb such as these stickers. We're not mechanical engineers, they are. They build the bloody things! And we rely on them to tell us. If they tell us wrong, it's thier fault and not ours

Getting the drift of things now? There's a lot you can do to get right up this company's nose. If you do it well enough, it won't even go to court. Get up Coromals nose as well. They'll put pressure on the dealer to give you back your money. Make it Coromal's problem as well as the dealers.

Go for it.

My email is,,,,,,, leslowe@iinet.net.au,,,,,,,, if you need any more hints.

Bilbo
AnswerID: 222967

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