12v wire v 240 v wire
Submitted: Wednesday, Feb 14, 2007 at 14:53
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Moose
I admit to being totalling unknowledgeable when it comes to things electrical. So please be gentle with your responses.
What is the difference between the two wires? I ask because I have found that 12v appliances will happily work when 12v power is supplied through a 240v lead. I had assumed that they wouldn't but I was curious and tried a 12v light and all was fine - it seemed to work just as
well as when using 12v cable. So what's the go?
Thanks from the Moose
Reply By: traveller2 - Wednesday, Feb 14, 2007 at 15:10
Wednesday, Feb 14, 2007 at 15:10
What you have discovered is correct, I've used three core extension leads to connect things like
camp lights, dash mounted winch controls and the like.
But they won't carry appreciable amounts of current and are quite often too stiff to survive in an automotive application for an extended period.
Wire designed to be installed in a fixed building application (house wiring) will break prematurely due to having a small number of thick wires as opposed to good automotive wire which is composed of many fine strands which make the cable flexible and able to survive in a mobile application.
Then there is the different insulation ratings of the plastic sheath etc.
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Follow Up By: Moose - Wednesday, Feb 14, 2007 at 16:47
Wednesday, Feb 14, 2007 at 16:47
G'day traveller2
I was referring more to 240v extension cords. They have multi strand very thin wire and are obviously very flexible. Also they often have heaps of insulation and thus appear to be very robust. I guess what I was getting at was whether I would be doing any damage to my 12 v appliances by using the 240 v stuff. I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one who has experimented with the "wrong" wiring. Some guy in our club told me I was crazy to use the 240 v stuff but as I find it works I've stuck with it. I guess that as nothing has yet expired then it's "all good".
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Follow Up By: Member - Jeff M (WA) - Thursday, Feb 15, 2007 at 11:54
Thursday, Feb 15, 2007 at 11:54
Yeah I have used 240v cable similar to 2g to joing by rear battery to my front aux battery. I used it because I got it for free, yes it is stiff which made it a pain to fit, but because it's stiff it moulded it'self to every curve and now is very good. It's also very thick so it won't bend or fracture in the offroad extremes as it's take too hands and grunting to bend it. If you were to use normal household type stuff it would break as it's not thick/strong enough. I actually used some 240v household earth wire to earth my compressor as it was the only thing lying around and sure enough it broke while I was driving through some dunes and I had to repair it and then replace it when I got
home.
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Reply By: PhilZD30Patrol - Wednesday, Feb 14, 2007 at 15:21
Wednesday, Feb 14, 2007 at 15:21
Hi
The insulation is designed and manufactured to Australian Standards for cables to be rated for 240V AC use.
Auto 12 volt DC cable is multi stranded copper to ensure greater flexibility so that it can withstand constant vibrations. Quality auto cable has different insulation standards depending on the proposed use of the cable.
All current flow is measured in amps (amperes). Water equivalent is litres of water.
All voltage is measured in volts. Water equivalent is pressure.
A simple way of looking at it is, the higher the volts (pressure of water) the more current flow (litres of water) through the same size cable (water pipe). BUT the comparison of electricity to water doesn't work past the examples above.
In simple terms the current carrying capacity of the cable is determined by the cross sectional area of the copper, the larger the cross sectional area the more amps can be efficiently transmitted. However, multi stranded cables can carry a little more current than solid copper of the same cross sectional area.
The longer the cable the greater the voltage drop for the same cross sectional area of copper. Voltage drop may result in greater current flow and heat loss which all adds up to inefficiency and possible failure of the circuit.
Hope you can understand my carrying on
Cheers
Phil
AnswerID:
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Follow Up By: Member - Jack - Wednesday, Feb 14, 2007 at 15:40
Wednesday, Feb 14, 2007 at 15:40
Hi Phil.
I am also a technical gelding when it comes to matters electrical.
Your explanation, using water flow as an example is the best I have ever read. I can almost say I understand it. Many thanks for taking the time to present a simplified (Idiots Guide ...???) to automotive electrical.
Much appreciated.
Jack
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Reply By: Max - Sydney - Wednesday, Feb 14, 2007 at 17:17
Wednesday, Feb 14, 2007 at 17:17
Moose
As others have said, 240v cable will carry low voltage direct current up to its AMPS rating - generally about 10. Even that much will start to waste power, which you don't have a lot of to throw away. But for a small light etc no worries.
BUT - AND I AM YELLING BECAUSE ITS IMPORTANT (and I am a bad teacher) - MAKE SURE YOU CAN NEVER PUT 240 VOLTS IN ONE END AND CONNECT IT TO A 12 VOLT APPLIANCE AT THE OTHER.
By that, I mean - put 12 volt type plugs both ends - don't take the "logical" step of using three pin plugs because they are easy to use and you reckon you will remember. The least that would happen is you fry the light or what ever, the worst is someone will die. In between you could
cook the car's electrics.
Safety is the worry with electricity when you don't have a good understanding.
Max
AnswerID:
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Reply By: Mike Harding - Wednesday, Feb 14, 2007 at 17:34
Wednesday, Feb 14, 2007 at 17:34
Cables have a voltage rating which is relevant to their ability to insulate that voltage.
ie. electrical energy will always try to "go home" - the active line will try to feed current to the neutral line and it will jump across any barrier to do that if it possibly can - including through cable insulation if it's not strong enough. If you have a electrical system with a 500,000 volt supply it will jump some distance across air (it will "arc").
Voltage ratings describe the ability of cable to stop that arcing - for 12V a piece of paper will do the job, for 240V we need something more serious for 10,000V more serious still.
As an end user the only thing you really need to know is that you should _NEVER_, _EVER_, _UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES_ use cable which is rated to a voltage lower than you intend to apply to it - so 12V car cable used for 240V is a big NO NO.
Mike Harding
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Follow Up By: pt_nomad - Wednesday, Feb 14, 2007 at 19:20
Wednesday, Feb 14, 2007 at 19:20
Mike,
Can you confirm / correct my understanding about voltage ratings on fuses.
The current rating on a 250v 3A fuse is still 3A at 12v and the the 250v refers the the highest voltage the fuse can be used in without a spark jumping between broken contacts?
Ta
Paul.
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Follow Up By: Mike Harding - Wednesday, Feb 14, 2007 at 19:36
Wednesday, Feb 14, 2007 at 19:36
Hi Paul
Damn good question!
My answer is: I don't know - because the situation between broken contacts in a fuse is an unknown and uncontrolled environment. I _assume_ the voltage rating of fuses relates to their ability not to arc across the two terminals in a non blown condition, which would render the fuse useless, I'll
check this one out and let you know for sure.
However you can be sure that 3 amps is 3 amps whether at 240V or 12V so it is safe to use a 240V 3A fuse in a 12V situation but NOT the other way around.
Mike Harding
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Follow Up By: Bonz (Vic) - Wednesday, Feb 14, 2007 at 20:58
Wednesday, Feb 14, 2007 at 20:58
Paul, The goat man is correct, a 3a 240v fuse will work fine in a 12v situation, however fuses aint fuses, and it depends on what type of fuses you are talking about.
HRC fuses (the ones that come in porcelain) are High Rupture Capacity and as such are rated based on an ability to dissipate excess heat in an overload situation, and so their capacity is related to their voltage as
well as their load as the heat energy that they are designed to operate with is power or watts or volts and amps related.
The issue of voltage insulation between the broken ends of a blown fuse is also voltage related as the fuse will dissolve (or Blow) relative to the voltage and current it is experiencing, hence the dissolving will stop when a voltage gap relative to the nominal voltage is reached, the current starts the process the lack of voltage finishes the process.
easy eh? I rest my goat.
refer AS 3000
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Follow Up By: Kiwi Kia - Wednesday, Feb 14, 2007 at 21:53
Wednesday, Feb 14, 2007 at 21:53
He means that heat is dissapated and the arc quenched !
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Follow Up By: Bonz (Vic) - Wednesday, Feb 14, 2007 at 22:02
Wednesday, Feb 14, 2007 at 22:02
yep the arc is unable to be maintained as the arc gap lengthens inside the fuse, thus quenching the arc.
Higher rated circuit breakers use things such as compressed air to lengthen the arc to quench it, others use an inert meduim such as SF6 gas to quench the arc, or even mineral oil inside which an arc is unhappy. Of course these would be used for 10,000v and above (22000, 33000, 66000,132000, 220000, 500000 etc)
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Follow Up By: Kiwi Kia - Wednesday, Feb 14, 2007 at 22:11
Wednesday, Feb 14, 2007 at 22:11
Either blowing away the ionised gas or removeing the heat will kill the arc. Quenching is when you remove the heat.
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Follow Up By: pt_nomad - Thursday, Feb 15, 2007 at 11:27
Thursday, Feb 15, 2007 at 11:27
Thanks Mike et al,
The fuses I am talking about are the old glass ones with metal caps (that are the mounting and contact) and a single visible wire.
I have installed three fuse holders with my aux power plugs at the back of the vehicle. The holders and fuses were from tricky dicky, but the fuses are comonly available. The ones I have are a slightly smaller size to than used to be in vehicles 20 years ago before blade fuses. The old vwehicle fuses were the ones where you wrap the ciggy paper around the outside when you dont have a spare fuse ;)
They come in a range of current capacties 3,5,10 15 .... but quite ofter the have 250v stamped on the matal cap as
well as the current rating.
They are typically not marked with the failure characteristics e.g. fast or slow blow and are commonly sold at garages etc so I infer that they are intended for 12v applications. So just wondering what the 250v rating is about.
Thanks
Paul.
P.S. no doubt there is a story behind the reference 'the goat man'.
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Follow Up By: Kiwi Kia - Thursday, Feb 15, 2007 at 12:41
Thursday, Feb 15, 2007 at 12:41
Some of those fuses are marked with an 'F' beside the rateing, this means that it is a fast acting fuse. if it has 'FF' it is very fast blowing.
The voltage rateing means that it is safe to use with 230 volts and that 230 volts will not jump across the 'gap' when it ruptures (blows).
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Follow Up By: Bonz (Vic) - Thursday, Feb 15, 2007 at 18:12
Thursday, Feb 15, 2007 at 18:12
Millicent knows the goat mans secrets
Those fuses will be fine for your car, dont be worried about the 240v notation they'll still work fine in the car.
Kiwi, the bigger breakers use an arc lengthening process to break the arc, and the compressed air does the job of lengthening the arc, sorry about using the word quench, yer right about killing the arc.
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Follow Up By: Mike Harding - Thursday, Feb 15, 2007 at 18:23
Thursday, Feb 15, 2007 at 18:23
>Millicent knows the goat mans secrets
She and I have no secrets... you'll, no doubt, be embarrassed to learn! You and that pogo stick!!!!
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