An axe to grind!

Submitted: Wednesday, Feb 21, 2007 at 13:07
ThreadID: 42556 Views:3921 Replies:15 FollowUps:13
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While I love my little oil-burner, I don't appreciate my sleep-in or morning TV/radio being interrupted by a clattering diesel nearby or breathing diesel fumes over my breakfast. Fellow travellers who have not yet "seen the light" and still drive petrol vehicles are probably even more annoyed.

So I'd ask my fellow travellers: Please don't idle your diesel for long periods in the morning, especially in caravan parks. It's not good for your fellow travellers and it's not the best for your engine either.

Even modern diesels are still noticeably noisier at idle than petrol engines and it is annoying to most people to have their morning interrupted by the clatter of an inconsiderate neighbour's diesel idling for many minutes (or even tens of minutes) in the morning.

Proponents of long idling will now arc-up and say they need to idle their engines to warm them up before moving off. Well, from what I have learned about diesels, this is not the best way to do it.

Of course it is desirable to bring any engine to close to normal operating temperature before subjecting it to heavy loads such as accelerating a heavy caravan or trailer up to highway speed. But long idling is not the optimum way to do this and even a very long period of idling is unlikely to achieve it with a diesel engine.

At idle, both petrol and diesel engines are burning very small amounts of fuel and it takes a considerable time for appreciable heat to be generated in the block and coolant jackets. And as the cylinder and combustion chamber surface temperatures are well below normal, a significant portion of the fuel condenses or collects on the cylinder walls and the fuel system has to add extra fuel to ensure enough fuel is available to support combustion. The fuel on the cylinder walls dilutes the lubricating oil film and some of it passes the piston rings and permanently dilutes the lubricating oil.

The problem is worse with diesel engines as, unlike petrol engines which run air/fuel ratios of around 15:1 at all times, a diesel engine at idle may have an air/fuel ratio of greater than 100:1. So every induction stroke a large unthrottled air charge enters the cylinders and removes much of the residual heat from the last power stroke. Then most of that slightly heated air is expelled in the exhaust stroke. So it will take a very long time for the engine to "warm-up", it at all. Under cold ambient conditions it may never approach normal operating temperature at idle.

So, extended idling of a diesel results in a slow, ineffective warm-up at best and certainly contributes to excessive oil dilution. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I have yet to see a vehicle owners manual that recommends long idling after start-up. In fact, the recommendations for Cummins heavy-duty diesel engines used in many large trucks, etc. specifically warn against idling for longer than 5 minutes after start-up, especially during the "run-in" period.

Please note, I am not recommending immediate drive-off and heavy loading of a stone-cold engine. My research suggests a reasonable method of warm-up would be:
Turn-on ignition until the glow-plug/start assist system indicates it is ready to start.
Start the engine and run at idle for long enough to ensure full oil pressure and flow is established (typically 30 seconds would be more than sufficient).
Drive-off gently and avoid loading the engine heavily until the coolant temperature gauge is well on it's way to it's normal position on the dial.
Idling the engine for 10 minutes or more while completing the coupling-up of your caravan/trailer is unnecessary, inconsiderate and counter-productive.

If you have remained hooked-up overnight and perhaps have no choice but to accelerate rapidly onto a busy highway immediately upon leaving the park, might I suggest you leave your site as quietly as possible and drive to the park exit (well away from other guests if possible) where you might give the engine a minute or two to warm-up at a fast idle before 'hitting the highway'. But I'd suggest this would be a rare situation.

I'm sure there will be some who disagree strenuously with me on this issue but I'd ask for contrary responses to be based on fact (such as quotes from owners' manuals or technical sources rather than hearsay or urban myth. [Hearsay may be OK for US military commissions, but it's definitely not acceptable on the ExplorOZ Forum!!]
Ian
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Reply By: png62 - Wednesday, Feb 21, 2007 at 13:17

Wednesday, Feb 21, 2007 at 13:17
Well said and how appropriate your details are about unnecessary engine warm up.
I trust you receive nothing but praise and thanks for your efforts in pointing out the error of the ways of many inconsiderate and ill-informed (unwanted) neighbours at our parks.
Cheers
John E
AnswerID: 223143

Reply By: Gramps (NSW) - Wednesday, Feb 21, 2007 at 13:23

Wednesday, Feb 21, 2007 at 13:23
And they're a damn sight noisier and smellier than any generator I've come across :))))
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Reply By: Des Lexic - Wednesday, Feb 21, 2007 at 13:32

Wednesday, Feb 21, 2007 at 13:32
Ian, If I am parked alongside you at a caravan park, I'll make sure I warm up properly with a few more revs etc so that I don't harm my engine. LOL
Seriously, I agree with what your saying and it doesn't take too long to get upto normal operating temperature.
AnswerID: 223146

Reply By: madfisher - Wednesday, Feb 21, 2007 at 13:39

Wednesday, Feb 21, 2007 at 13:39
Ian I use to drive a concrete aggi and thje biggest problem we faced was engines sooting and glazing up because of the constant ildeing. One of the other drivers drove his truck on the red line most of the time when he was on the road and it gave a lot less trouble than the trucks that were babied.
But you are so right it is so bloody annoying first thing of a morning
Cheers Pete
AnswerID: 223148

Follow Up By: Old Nick - Wednesday, Feb 21, 2007 at 20:24

Wednesday, Feb 21, 2007 at 20:24
Your right fisher, drive deisels like ya hate 'em. They last longer and no troubles with sooting or glazed bores.

Yes , I have experienced the "big warm up for the deisel "in the morning in parks.
Not always but usually city slickers, ruining a good motor, and they finish up with an oil burning rattler, with very few kms. on the clock. "But it's always been looked after"! No idea, keep the oils and filters changed and drive them flat- they are governed top end anyway, thats the way to get a diesel to last, and I've been amongst them all my life.

Old OLD Nick.
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Follow Up By: Big Woody - Thursday, Feb 22, 2007 at 09:19

Thursday, Feb 22, 2007 at 09:19
Funny you should say that because my brother has a 1HZ Diesel 80 series cruiser and drives a car harder than anyone I have ever seen. It makes me cringe when it is so close to the redline so often.
Well it is a 93 model and now has 650,000km on the clock and the motor has never been touched. He has driven it like this since new.
Maybe there is something in the statement "drive 'em like ya hate 'em".

Brett
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Follow Up By: Gerhardp1 - Thursday, Feb 22, 2007 at 13:08

Thursday, Feb 22, 2007 at 13:08
This applies to petrol engines as well.

Friend had a Mazda bubble from new and thrashed the daylights out of it (had to, to get any kind of performance)

When he sold it it had 150,000 odd on it, and the buyer couldn't believe how much power it had compared to the other ones he had driven.

A business owner I know uses 4 cyl petrol rodeos and they all do 700,000+ ks getting flogged by all and sundry doing deliveries around Melbourne.
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Follow Up By: madfisher - Thursday, Feb 22, 2007 at 17:33

Thursday, Feb 22, 2007 at 17:33
BigWoody,
This particular Hino was geared to do about 95ks before you went into the red, I was talking to the orinigal owner and he told me they picked up new in melbourne and then drove it up the hume to Bathurst flat out.
This truck left an idenical one for dead on the road so must be something in it although I never run any motor into the red. Alot depends on how well they are put together
Cheers Pete
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Reply By: whyallacookie - Wednesday, Feb 21, 2007 at 14:08

Wednesday, Feb 21, 2007 at 14:08
Almost as annoying as those who "have" to be up at 5:30 in the morning banging and clattering about packing up to make sure they are driving away at first light. Or those who like to "party till late". Those who insist on having the cricket/football whatever blaring from their radio which is 2 foot away. Perhaps we should ban those with kids too, they are annoying aren't they?

While I agree with you, It isn't necessary to sit there idling etc etc, time for everyone to be a little more considerate of others and also tolerant of others. Idling a gas powered vehicle gives off annoying fumes too, for that matter plenty of petrols do.

Everyday people are getting less and less tolerant of each other. We avoid idling, we have 3 young kids (they don't make excessive noise or run through others camps) so we try to pick a site around others with kids, although some parks you have a site and that is it... They won't even let you swap when you notice your right between a couple of vans with no kids. (although often the "grey haired nomads" are more tolerant of kids than most middle aged)
AnswerID: 223162

Reply By: Ron173 - Wednesday, Feb 21, 2007 at 14:18

Wednesday, Feb 21, 2007 at 14:18
I would tend to agree with your theory, but it aint gonna happen.

Most caravan sites all have their share of short stayers, and overnighters, and folks want to get on and mobile as soon as possible, and last consideration is neighbours.

I gave up on lie ins in sites a long while ago, 630-700 and everyones up.

If you crave those peaceful mornings so badly, I'd be looking for more bush like stops if I were you.

Ron
AnswerID: 223165

Reply By: Member - Barnesy (SA) - Wednesday, Feb 21, 2007 at 15:16

Wednesday, Feb 21, 2007 at 15:16
Personally I don't idle the engine and it is annoying first thing. That's why I rarely stay in caravan parks. If i do stay in one then it's only for one night to do the laundry and have warm shower. Never long enough for things like this to get on my nerves.

Can't put my finger on it directly but my owners manual states to start the diesel, when it is running smoothly then drive off slowly. DON"T sit there and idle for several minutes. Maybe you could find something similar and next time someone idles, then go and sow them that.

Barnesy
AnswerID: 223175

Reply By: Exploder - Wednesday, Feb 21, 2007 at 18:57

Wednesday, Feb 21, 2007 at 18:57
Believe it or not the new DI diesels will actually run rougher at idle/ low speeds and have a more pronounced diesel knock than the old ID diesel.

Cheers.
AnswerID: 223209

Reply By: Member - Axle - Wednesday, Feb 21, 2007 at 19:43

Wednesday, Feb 21, 2007 at 19:43
Ian , Are you saying with a landy 300tdi with a 2t van hooked up in -3deg temperatures, dont let it idle to warm up, before you take off?? Quickest way to destroy one of those engines if you dont!.

Cheers Axle.
AnswerID: 223224

Follow Up By: Shaker - Wednesday, Feb 21, 2007 at 23:30

Wednesday, Feb 21, 2007 at 23:30
I'm sure moving it out of the caravan park & letting it warm up in the street wouldn't destroy it!

Also if I remember correctly, when I was selling Land Rovers, they used to boast of their abilty to start & operate in extremes of temperature.
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Follow Up By: Redback - Thursday, Feb 22, 2007 at 07:39

Thursday, Feb 22, 2007 at 07:39
Yep shaker is right, 30sec to 1 minute is usually enough and this is realy only to get the turbo bearing nice and oiled up.

Sorry Axle, LandRover TD5 owner here.

Baz.
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Follow Up By: Ian from Thermoguard Instruments - Thursday, Feb 22, 2007 at 08:52

Thursday, Feb 22, 2007 at 08:52
Hi Axle,

Can't recall -3 deg but a number of times we would have left overnight roadside stops at under 5 C. I don't time it with a stop-watch but typically in this situation we would start-up and idle for maybe up to a minute while checking the 'van lights and brakes, then drive slowly to the highway and drive off gently (say, 2500 rpm between gear changes). The 300Tdi now has 230,000 km up, probably about 1/3 of that towing something and seems to be going pretty well to me.

When working in Alice a few years ago we were living in a caravan park. I had to leave for work at 7:15 - still almost dark in winter and often below zero. I'd start-up and immediately idle in 1st to the park entrance - about 30-40 seconds I'd guesstimate - then gently potter-off up the road.

First time I've heard of the 300Tdi needing to be treated different to the rest of the automotive high-speed diesel world?
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Reply By: brad1972 - Wednesday, Feb 21, 2007 at 20:00

Wednesday, Feb 21, 2007 at 20:00
http://www.epa.gov/region1/eco/diesel/assets/pdfs/Diesel_Factsheet_Truck_Idling.pdf interesting link above, it also puts a dollar value on excessive idling.
Brad
AnswerID: 223229

Reply By: Flash - Wednesday, Feb 21, 2007 at 20:39

Wednesday, Feb 21, 2007 at 20:39
Well said, Ian.
Far from disagreeing,
You are spot on.
AnswerID: 223241

Reply By: Willem - Wednesday, Feb 21, 2007 at 23:16

Wednesday, Feb 21, 2007 at 23:16
Ian

During the years when we were forced to live in a CP in Alice Springs this was my pet hate. I used to have many yelling sessions with other park users about their bloody smelly diesel fumes through my van in the early morning. I threatened a particular bloke that I would disable his LC permanently unless he showed more consideration. Luckily he didn't take the threat too seriously but moved away soon after...lol

I start my diesel in the morning, rverse oyt of thre garage immediately and drive away. My old Nissan runs sweetly

Cheers
AnswerID: 223283

Follow Up By: Member - Duncs - Thursday, Feb 22, 2007 at 08:16

Thursday, Feb 22, 2007 at 08:16
Ditto

Duncs
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Follow Up By: GQ_TUFF - Friday, Feb 23, 2007 at 17:26

Friday, Feb 23, 2007 at 17:26
Same here,
Start motor, put seat belt on, light smoke, reversing out the drive way with in 20 seconds and potter off up the street at sensible revs, When its up to temp I drive it like mentioned before "drive ya diesel like you hate it!!)

Cheers Stefan
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Reply By: steve&anja - Wednesday, Feb 21, 2007 at 23:44

Wednesday, Feb 21, 2007 at 23:44
Just looking through drivers manual for a 100 series no turbo 1hz diesel 2002 model page 189 states after the engine runs for 10 seconds you are ready to drive.
It also says under extreme cold conditions you should warm up for 2-3 minutes.
I personally warm my cars for 2-3 minutes every morning before they go on tour for 2 reasons a to warm motor ( average temp in the morning in the dry season about 12 degrees not cold but cool) and the other is it gives the alternator time to charge batteries and stop belt squeal advice from a Toyota mechanic.
AnswerID: 223290

Follow Up By: Muzzgit [WA] - Thursday, Feb 22, 2007 at 00:08

Thursday, Feb 22, 2007 at 00:08
I seem to remember owners manual in my brothers 2H 60 series saying start engine and idle for 10 - 20 seconds then bring revs up to 1200rpm for 10 seconds then drive off.
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FollowupID: 484162

Follow Up By: Ian from Thermoguard Instruments - Thursday, Feb 22, 2007 at 09:04

Thursday, Feb 22, 2007 at 09:04
Hi Steve & Anja,

I have no problems at all with 2 to 3 minutes - we take about that long to back-up to the tow coupling if we are hitching up - but then we turn it off.

It's the 10 - 15 - 20 minute jockeys (yes, I'm serious about 20 minutes+ at times!) that get up my nose ( and, it seems, many other noses too?)

Hmmm, not convinced about 2 - 3mins being able to recharge the battery to any great extent but I'll leave that one to others more knowledgeable in such matters.
Ian
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Follow Up By: steve&anja - Thursday, Feb 22, 2007 at 10:01

Thursday, Feb 22, 2007 at 10:01
Hi Ian
When I say charging the battery I mean some older batteries may drop a little voltage over night so when you first start the engine the alternator works harder to pick the voltage up and sometimes creates belt slip, This info was given to me after i put new belts on 1 of my cars and spent the next week tightening them without getting rid of the squeal, S my mechanic suggested I run the cars 2-3 minutes before leaving and it worked I also use Penrite HPR Diesel a thicker oil and the 2-3 minutes helps get the oil around the engine first thing.
I also came across the same thing in CP on my resent holiday and yeah it is annoying.
cheers Steve
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FollowupID: 484194

Reply By: Robnicko - Thursday, Feb 22, 2007 at 11:30

Thursday, Feb 22, 2007 at 11:30
Ian,
I totally agree with you

Idling for 10 minutes to warm up.............reminds me of my first car a Mazda RX4 Coupe.

Rob

Commonsense applies to warming up. Start vehicle, after say 30 seconds you can move off gently and until the thermostat opens treat it gently. Only rental cars can go flat out from cold starts.
When going for a run or pushbike ride you dont go flat out at the beginning, you gradually build up otherwise something gives.
AnswerID: 223355

Reply By: whyallacookie - Thursday, Feb 22, 2007 at 22:03

Thursday, Feb 22, 2007 at 22:03
Just on the backing up turning off, hitching up then starting and driving off. Have you considered (and one would assume so as you mention the extra emissions a cold vehicle emits) that your method may actually be more dangerous (or annoying if you think that is more important) to the people around you. Most diesel's send out a puff on start up. Your doing this twice to those around you. Unless you take a long time to hitch you'd probably be less annoying if you just started, hitched up and went to the gates as you mentioned.
AnswerID: 223440

Follow Up By: Ian from Thermoguard Instruments - Friday, Feb 23, 2007 at 08:13

Friday, Feb 23, 2007 at 08:13
Gees, we're starting to split hairs now, aren't we? But as you ask:
No, I don't think one extra 1/2 second puff of smoke is worse than many minutes of unnecessary noisy idling.

After backing the ball under the coupling (and turning-off), we then lower the coupling onto the ball, stow the jockey wheel, attach two safety chains, seven-pin plug, breakaway cable, fit and tension weight-distribution bars, check 'van lights and brakes, do a final walk-around to ensure all corner legs are up, hoses stowed and nothing left on the ground, etc.

We're pretty practised at this after nearly five years on the road and think we accomplish it a bit quicker than the average traveller but I'd still estimate at least 5 minutes, often closer to 10. (Again, I haven't put a stop-watch on it). This doesn't include the occasional chat to a neighbour, which often seems to accompany hooking-up, ("Where to today, mate?") (Which, if conducted over an idling diesel, is usually loud enough for half the park to hear...)

As for which alternative generates the greater total quantity of emissions and their relative toxicity, I'll let you do the measurements and calculations on that one if you think it will justify long idling.

My axe now has a fine edge on it - I'll try to leave it alone now.
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