LC80 Rear End Sag Solutions?

Submitted: Wednesday, Mar 28, 2007 at 23:17
ThreadID: 43752 Views:4163 Replies:11 FollowUps:8
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Hi All,

I have an '96 LC80 with 3 month old, 50mm lifted Pedders suspension and shocks all round.

I have draws which weigh 110kg loaded with recovery, tools and basic camping stuff. Depending on petrol level the rear sags about 25-30mm from when draws are removed. This would be my day to day running load, obviously more weight on a trip, though not sure of any extra sag yet.

I don't tow anything and don't plan too. I have the spare still under the rear and use the LC80 for medium to serious off road work in rocky terrain (within obvious capabilities & limitations).

I've read a lot on the forum about polyairs (or equivalents) v's heavier duty shocks. I'm looking for a solution that will lift my bum from scraping but still provide good wheel travel?

What have other people done?

Thanks in advance,
Alex
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Reply By: Member - Steve T (NT) - Wednesday, Mar 28, 2007 at 23:29

Wednesday, Mar 28, 2007 at 23:29
Hi Alex K.

I would suggest that if it sags with 110kg ,there is something wrong with the springs.

I had a 80 series and now 3 100 series that carry 7 adults daily, I use heavy duty King Springs and EFS shocks, the rear last 18 months on dirt roads before replacing.

With 8 people in the truck it drops approx 2-3 inches.

Hope this helps Steve.
AnswerID: 230370

Reply By: Muzzgit [WA] - Wednesday, Mar 28, 2007 at 23:54

Wednesday, Mar 28, 2007 at 23:54
I'd opt for heavier springs. Although polyair bags are popular, most suspension guru's will tell you, the easiest, simplest, cheapest way is to fit heavier springs to the rear.

But don't go overboard and get the stiffest ones available. A medium rate should do it.
AnswerID: 230374

Reply By: Member - Tour Boy- Thursday, Mar 29, 2007 at 06:53

Thursday, Mar 29, 2007 at 06:53
Sorry mate but your mistake is pedders. I'll leave it at that.
IMHO you can't go past kings springs and Tough Dog shocks.
If you have the right set of springs you don't need polyairs or similar, they can cause spring towers to bend on cruisers and crack on patrols as they don't let the springs absorb the bumps, ratherthey transfer the jolt to the spring tower.
Regards
Tour Boy
Cheers,
Dave
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AnswerID: 230382

Follow Up By: Diver1 - Thursday, Mar 29, 2007 at 13:51

Thursday, Mar 29, 2007 at 13:51
our 80 series has the king springs with ultimate big bore shocks - 2'' lift front 3'' rear...when fully loaded we lose a bit a travel in the rear but average driving( our draws are constantly in and we also carry 2 prams and recovery gear all the time in the car)

ride is great...not too stiff or soft....we have no need for polys

Laura
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FollowupID: 491281

Follow Up By: Member - Davoe (Nullagine) - Thursday, Mar 29, 2007 at 16:53

Thursday, Mar 29, 2007 at 16:53
have to agree - from personall experience it certainly aint quality equipment. I have had 4 pedders shockie failures...... And that was on cars
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FollowupID: 491305

Follow Up By: madfisher - Thursday, Mar 29, 2007 at 20:33

Thursday, Mar 29, 2007 at 20:33
I had a set one set of peddars years ago, complete waste of time and money, but have had 2 sets of lovells EHD s with very good results, although I need 100kgs in back to soften ride Cheers Pete
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FollowupID: 491361

Reply By: Member - Jiarna (NT) - Thursday, Mar 29, 2007 at 06:59

Thursday, Mar 29, 2007 at 06:59
Hi Alex

I think the choices are air bags vs heavier springs (heavier duty shocks won't affect sag). I have both in my LC80, as I fitted the heavier springs first but still wasn't happy. Of course the suspension gurus said springs were the way to go, but that probably because the springs yielded them more profit than the air bags, or they didn't sell air bags. About all I got from heavier springs was a stiffer ride when unladen.

I then fitted Firestone Coil-Rite air bags (about 3 1/2 years ago now) and have been very happy with the result. They slightly reduce upwards wheel travel, but do not affect downwards travel, and I've not found the overall effect to be detrimental to the vehicle's ability to get where I want it to (I don't have lockers - yet :-) )

I also fitted a set of OME shocks which have so far also given no trouble, and work well with my setup and loading pattern.

Good luck with getting your vehicle set up to do what you want - there are so many choices that it gets a bit of a headache sometimes. I've found this forum very helpful at times.

Cheers
John
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AnswerID: 230383

Follow Up By: Member - Alex K (NSW) - Thursday, Mar 29, 2007 at 16:16

Thursday, Mar 29, 2007 at 16:16
Thanks for your points John, just a quick clarification, you say that the air bags only effect upward wheel travel not downward. I would have thought on a live rear axel that the suspension would work in a linear fasion. I.e. If one wheel is restricted from upward travel due to max air bag compression wouldn't that cause the other wheel not to drop as far?

Where am I going wrong?
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Follow Up By: Member - Jiarna (NT) - Thursday, Mar 29, 2007 at 17:44

Thursday, Mar 29, 2007 at 17:44
I guess you are right on paper, but I've not found any reduction in ability to cope with rough tracks. In fact the ramp-over and departure angles have improved slightly due to less saggy bum. Horses for courses I guess - some people take exception to the fact that I drive a Toyota and use a Waeco fridge. But they work for me, like the air bags.

Cheers
John
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Reply By: Member - Oldplodder (QLD) - Thursday, Mar 29, 2007 at 07:39

Thursday, Mar 29, 2007 at 07:39
Some good responses above.

One note, shocks only control the springs.
Stiffer shocks on bump stop the springs moving too quickly, but the springs and body movement will still compress the shocks. Stiffer springs require stiffer shocks. Shocks also have various controls. They work on bump (compression) and rebound.
So you can have a shock that is light on bump strong on rebound for a better ride, but still control the spring.
Plus, shocks are set up for various speeds. Low speed bumps like ambling down a track, medium speed bumps, and high speed action like corrugations when speeds of the wheel approach 3m/sec up and down. Different valving is usually included for these different speeds. You might see a note about variable rate shocks in an add.

So I have gone for variable rate King springs in the rear, which are standard compression when empty, for a better ride empty. But stiffen up an extra 30% once they travel more than 20 to 30mm, to take a load, or a large bump without bottoming out. And I have Koni shocks that are soft on bump, but strong on rebound so I don't loose too much ride quality, but still control the springs. You will loose some articulation on really rough going when empty.

Some people swear by variable rate springs in the rear (front is a different matter) , others reckon they are not worth the trouble. Handling (oversteer/understeer) does become a little less progressive. I understeer at lower speeds, but at higher cornering speeds when the rear springs load up, it really oversteers.
AnswerID: 230390

Reply By: Member - Nick (TAS) - Thursday, Mar 29, 2007 at 08:30

Thursday, Mar 29, 2007 at 08:30
Id go Polyair bags, pump them up a bit before you load the vehicle for a good ride height(bit of experementing) and then unloaded let them down to min for a nice soft ride.Best of both worlds.Even with stiffer springs and a load they will still drop maybe an inch and you may find unloaded that you get a harsh ride.I fit Polyairs to all my vehicles and put them in my parents 80 series, there rapped with the nice ride but can still carry a good load with out the rear sagging.
AnswerID: 230400

Reply By: Jason M P - Thursday, Mar 29, 2007 at 08:34

Thursday, Mar 29, 2007 at 08:34
Hi Alex.. Yes I had the same problem as you did..first got a set off 2" lifted springs.Made the draws for the rear of my LC100 and threw some stuff in.. It drop the ride height wasn't happy with it. I ended up fitting extra heavy duty king springs to the rear only. Before fitted the springs i measure the thickness of the old and new coils.The old ones were 17mm and the new ones were 19mm thick.Yes I'm happy with the king springs and notice it lifted the LC higher to 4'' with the gear in it.
cheers..
AnswerID: 230401

Reply By: Member - Alex K (NSW) - Thursday, Mar 29, 2007 at 10:21

Thursday, Mar 29, 2007 at 10:21
Thanks all for your replies. I have read on other posts that it's important to get the spring setup right first then only rely on polyairs to level the rear depending on load, therefore maintaining a soft ride when unloaded and not bottoming out when loaded.

What does concern be is the amount of sag with only a modest 110kg with draws. I don't think it's proportionate as on a recent fraser trip with 4 adults and full to the roof and roof cage loaded it didn't sag noticably anymore.

Does anyone think the springs could be faulty, how would I test?

Thanks,
Alex
AnswerID: 230421

Reply By: Mikee5 (QLD) - Thursday, Mar 29, 2007 at 11:00

Thursday, Mar 29, 2007 at 11:00
Were the new springs progressive wound or non-progressive. Progressive springs will sag under first load as the softer windings close up. Once these are fully compressed the stiffer windings come into play. Did pedders ask you what you expected to achieve by buying their product and offer you alternatives? Did they ask you what load you intended to carry?
AnswerID: 230428

Follow Up By: Member - Alex K (NSW) - Thursday, Mar 29, 2007 at 16:01

Thursday, Mar 29, 2007 at 16:01
I'm not too sure. I'll have to find out if they are progressive or not. Yeah, they did ask, I said draws, fridge and camping equipment. I mean I don't have long range tank and heavy rear step with dual wheel hangers or anything like that. The ride is very comfortable, there is no swaying and overall i'm very happy. I just could do with a little more rear end room when bouncing in and out of deep ruts.
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FollowupID: 491294

Reply By: Robnicko - Thursday, Mar 29, 2007 at 12:24

Thursday, Mar 29, 2007 at 12:24
There are lots of choices / opinions here but this is what I did

ARB Old man EMU.
I have an 80 series with this suspension in it. It gives better handling on /off road, keeps your bum off the track and provides for excellent wheel travel.
I have had mine for 5 years now and have never had any issues with it. Has not sagged at all.
I have had 28m of wall tiles in the back and it basically levelled the vehicle as opposed to the slightly taller rear stance. Mind you that was about 250Kg worth of weight in the back.
Front spring is called an 850 and the rear is 863
It gives a firmer ride unladen however handling is far superior to standard.
Very happy
Rob
AnswerID: 230441

Reply By: cowpat - Thursday, Mar 29, 2007 at 15:56

Thursday, Mar 29, 2007 at 15:56
Alex, from memory I think the standard rate springs are 200 lb/inch (each). So with 110 kg (240 lb) on the rear axle you'd expect about a half-inch of sag, about half what you're seeing. It's unlikely that the springs are half the standard rate so maybe the load is partly behind the rear axle or a bit more than you expect etc or you have really soft progressive springs installed etc.

But if you're looking to only raise the height 30 mm and make no other changes buy a pair of 30 mm polyurethane spacers. $75 each for German ones from King Springs or about $30 for perfectly good cheaper units elsewhere. Casper
AnswerID: 230467

Follow Up By: Member - Alex K (NSW) - Thursday, Mar 29, 2007 at 16:09

Thursday, Mar 29, 2007 at 16:09
Thanks Casper,
If 200lb/inch wouldn't I expect a little more than one inch sag with 240lb not 1/2 inch?

Is there a way to work out if they are pregressive springs by maybe looking at a thinner diameter in the coil at the top (or maybe bottom) and thicker at the other end?

Good idea regarding the spacers. How would this effect wheel trevel over polyairs?
Cheers,
Alex

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FollowupID: 491295

Follow Up By: cowpat - Friday, Mar 30, 2007 at 08:46

Friday, Mar 30, 2007 at 08:46
Sorry I didn't make it clear that it's 200 lb/inch for each spring. Two springs = 400 lb/inch total, that's why it'd only be about 1/2".

Progressive springs are would with unevenly spaced coils. The wire size is the same all the way round, it's just that the more closely wound coils close up first and so the spring rate increases with load. A straight-rate spring has evenly would coils - all coils will close up at the same time, at the limit of compression.

Spring spacers simply raise the vehicle and the spring rate is unaffected. Polyairs are like adding another spring in parallel and so increase spring rate. An increased spring rate will reduce overall wheel travel.

You can think of adding spacers as fine-tuning. They are available in lengths as short as 10 mm and let you make small adjustments to the level of the vehicle, eg where you have an additional fixed load that is not great enough to justify jumping to the next available spring rate or length.

Polyairs are more to allow for larger variable loads, so you can adjust ride height depending on load.

If you raise the vehicle too much with spring spacers you may need longer shocks or travel limiting straps or you may need to extend the bump stops, just as if you fitted different springs. 30 mm should not be a problem with a landcruiser.

Firmer springs/polyairs are more appropriate than spring spacers if you are bottoming out regularly, or if you just want a firmer ride on the bitumen.
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FollowupID: 491416

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