stall start on hill?

Sorry Im confused?

How's it going IAMGQ?

Practice the technique and you will find it second nature and useful. IMO it is THE ONLY safe method of reversing back down a rocky, muddy hill.

"the sudden speed picking up during starting could be my biggest concern."

This technique ensures you don't pick up speed - because you are in low reverse immediately (since no use of the clutch) and therefore you are IMMEDIATELY going as slow as the vehicle will let you without applying brakes. This means you can steer and apply small dabs of brake when and if needed.

Neutral and riding the clutch are the arch enemies of 4WD'ers descending a hill!

Once you are happy with the practical aspects of this technique I am sure you will find it very useful.

Hope you enjoyed your course,

Jim

Its is the best way

if you try to go down a hill in Neutral, and use the brakes,
1) brakes will get hot and could fade to 0
2) if you start to slide, theres no way of using the engine braking to slow you down.
3) inch by inch doesnt always get you wheel placement.
4) Low R *SHOULD* be ok, but of course all depends on the track, conditions, tires, weather etc.

As others have said, its LOTS of practice, or buy an auto :) You dont stall start on a hill :-)


Where did you do the training? Club or private?

IAMGQ once yougetthe nack of it, it will be very easy and predictable.

Using the engines compression is far more flexible that relying on the brakes.

eg, what if there is a relatibvley flat spot part way down the hill, you'll need to engage reverse anyway to drive over it.

If it scares you, that is probably good, you may look twice at an obstacle before having a go at it.

When looking at any climb always ask yourself if you (and your vehicle) are capable of reversing down it when things go awry.

practice, practice, practice

IAMGQ, never, never, put the vehicle into nuetral on a steep or slippery slope. Avoid using the brakes wherever possible, and that really does mean wherever possible. The combination of nuetral gearing and brakes (even ABS will lock and loose traction on a steep and slippery slope) can be a fatal combination for your vehicle, you and your passangers. Just don't do it!

The stall-start technique is a little scarey the first few times - yes, the initial lurch forward/backward gets the adrenaline pumping. However, after that first metre or so, the vehicle quickly comes under the control of the engine braking (especially in low first), and you'll be amazed at how much more controlled and safer the decent will be. With a manual, and good low gearing the vehicle will decend more slowly than you could walk.

I used this technique many times in my FJ40, and its actually one of the more fun parts of 4 wheeling.Be good, or be quick.
Rohan

iamgq
ihave used this technique hundreds of times &as a 4wd instructor ihave shown people how to do just as many , what supprises me here is not that you are scarred by this process but that the risks of what you sujest as the better option have not been explianed to you with enough information to absalutely terrifie you from using it
once you place your vehicle in neutral you have basicly lost control of it you only need for your breaks to fail & no matter how good a driver you are you will not stop this vehicle just ask the hudreds of truck drivers who have missed a gear going down hill once this happen s you are a passanger along fo the ride ,also the breaks dont need to fail they only need to be wet & that can be enough for you to loose control the other thing that can hapen is that you will lock a break up which can cause the car to slew side ways & roll over,yes it may seem confusing at the begining but i would sujest that you practice this method on a flat surface till it is second nature it can & will save you & your car
& remember that these course should be formulated to the national standards for 4wd training & the course contents has been gone over & over by lots of people withn years of experance & designed to place the maximum emphasis on the safest way in which to enjoy our sport
regards Bruce

IAMGQ,
A couple of years ago, after I had done some training at Peake in SA, I learned how to do stall start reversals. Look, by no means am I an expert at it, but reasonably confident and competent.
After that training session, I was there months later with a private group of individuals in 4WD's, about a dozen vehicles. My Rodeo with this group was the only diesel manual, so I executed stall start reversals with little trouble. What I noticed by waiting at the bottom of the hill, was observing other drivers, who, perhaps had not had any training, get stuck, and then reverse down. Perhaps also by being petrol vehicles, they didn't have the engine compression braking we have with diesels. Because of the sand involved on these hills, they would reverse using neutral and use of the brake. Everytime they felt the vehicle was getting away from them, they would use the brake's, which locked up the wheels easier, because of the little resistance the sand offers. They would then brake to a stop, and then also need reverse to take off again. Anyway the culmination of this braking to a complete stop intermittently is that what could have remained a smooth run up now had lots of holes in the track as a result of the braking method employed. The only reason their vehicles were stopping was because of the depth of the trenches that were being caused by locked up wheels.

Therefore, for the excellent control it offers, and minimum track damage that could be caused, the stall start reversals are definantly the way to go.

Cheers,

Dion.

As you can see from the above resonses it seems to be the best technique. I'll tell you a short story of what isn't the best technique.
A few years back I was out FWDing with a small party of vehicles. We came to a steep descent and we all got out to have a look. The leading Fourby after some deliberation decided to have a go. I enquired as to whether he was going to use first or second low. He gave me a blank stare and proceeded to tell me the only way to tackle steep descents was (this is a true story) to put it in reverse gear with your foot on the clutch and ease your way down with the brakes. If you get into trouble you can then dump the clutch (while in reverse gear) while burying your right foot on the accelerator! Needless to say he used his preferred technique, lost control (with rocks and dust flying everywhere) and hit a tree.

NEUTRAL means 'ANGEL GEAR' and thats who you will be talking to if you try that method too often .

As a Nationally Recognised 4wd Instructor I have taught hundreds of people this very safe method of reversing out of a difficult hill situation when you either run out of power or run out of grip. I must say tho that the ease of the recovery varies greatly from vehicle to vehicle. Diesels are by far the safest due to thier high compression and very low gearing.
The scariest ones are fuel injected petrols as when stalled they seem to have a lot of unburnt fuel in thier phlenum? chamber or inlet manifold. This causes them to give a considerable jump when the starter motor engages the fly wheel and that fuel ingnites. I recently trained someone in a late model V8 discovery that was very scary. I combatted this by starting the car with more footbrake than usually recommended to steady the initial leap backward. Practice in a safe place, to build your confidence practice while going forward down a hill, stop and then key start until you become familiar with the characteristics of your car.
Cheers Rob Cairns Offroad Training & Tours

Regarding the higher compression in a diesel assisting engine braking, in my experience (owning a diesel car for 22 years) there is very little difference in engine braking betwen diesel and petrol engines. Although the diesel engine has to work harder to compress the air in the cylinder, that compressed air then helps drive the piston down again, cancelling out much of the work done during the compression stroke.

BTW, my car is a non-turbo with a compression ratio of 23:1, much higher than most modern turbos. I previously owned a petrol version of the same car, so if there was significantly greater engine braking with the diesel I should have noticed it.

Stephen.

Nice discussion - just a couple of comments:

Some petrol vehicles (eg V6 Jackaroo) rev at 2000rpm on startup, making the stall start a nightmare - combat this by applying handbrake a few notches when you have the vehicle sitting there on engine compression, just before starting.

Re engine braking, don't forget about gearing. Examples: Nissans have about 30:1 ratio Low 1st compared to Toyotas 45:1, so they appear to have less engine braking. Also, Prado automatics have a 2.7 1st gear versus 4.3 on the manuals. In my limited experience, manual diesels have excellent engine braking when compared with the extreme opposite (automatic petrols).