Generators and Computers

Submitted: Saturday, May 26, 2007 at 15:35
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Generators and Computers - i want to buy a cheap generator to run my desktop. What other device do i need as surge protection??
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Reply By: Shaker - Saturday, May 26, 2007 at 15:43

Saturday, May 26, 2007 at 15:43
You may be better & safer running your PC through an invertor, & using the "cheap generator" to run a battery charger.
AnswerID: 242537

Reply By: Member - lyndon K (SA) - Saturday, May 26, 2007 at 15:44

Saturday, May 26, 2007 at 15:44
Don't like your chances of running it from a cheap"generator", unless you first charge your batteries and then use a pure/modified sin wave inverter to then run your laptop.
Regards Lyndon
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For the clock may then be still

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AnswerID: 242539

Reply By: rbt - Saturday, May 26, 2007 at 15:53

Saturday, May 26, 2007 at 15:53
i have tried the inverter option - your correct, fullcharged beforehand but the charge rate wont keep up with the draw rate, which still limits me...

please dont tell me a need 4 agm's
AnswerID: 242541

Follow Up By: Mainey (WA) - Saturday, May 26, 2007 at 17:48

Saturday, May 26, 2007 at 17:48
rbt, your rite--> you only have to replace the power used by the computer !!

My notebook runs for 3 hours off it's own battery, and I'm "positive" it can be powered with an elcheapo cranking battery and a PSW inverter.
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FollowupID: 503513

Follow Up By: Blaze - Saturday, May 26, 2007 at 23:42

Saturday, May 26, 2007 at 23:42
I suggest you do as all above have said, use the Gen set to charge vehicle batteries then run either a inverter to charge the laptop or use a cig plug charger for the Laptop. If you choose to run it straight off the Gen Set, let me know when you need to buy a new Laptop as I seel them :-)
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FollowupID: 503595

Follow Up By: Blaze - Saturday, May 26, 2007 at 23:45

Saturday, May 26, 2007 at 23:45
OOPs ' sorry didn't see you wanted to run your normal PC, my answer sell the PC and get a Laptop then do as mentioned above
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FollowupID: 503596

Follow Up By: rbt - Sunday, May 27, 2007 at 01:38

Sunday, May 27, 2007 at 01:38
what is one worth that will play, as an example - BF2??
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Follow Up By: Mainey (WA) - Sunday, May 27, 2007 at 12:58

Sunday, May 27, 2007 at 12:58
Ok I'll ask.... :-(( what's... BF2 ?

I guess it's a 'game' if so, what specs is the present computer....?

What is 'required' to run BF2 ?
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FollowupID: 503666

Follow Up By: rbt - Sunday, May 27, 2007 at 13:31

Sunday, May 27, 2007 at 13:31
heya Mainey

ram - 2gig
cpu - AMD370064 onwards
video - 128mb, pref 256mb but wants 512mb video ram

its not a hungry game, lol...
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FollowupID: 503674

Follow Up By: Mainey (WA) - Sunday, May 27, 2007 at 13:52

Sunday, May 27, 2007 at 13:52
My notebook is...
ram - 2048MB, 533MHz, DDR2 SDRAM
cpu - Intel Core 2 Duo T7200
2GHz, 4MB Cashe, 667 MHz FSB
1680 x 1050 15.4inch Wide Screen SXGA+ TFT trueLife screen
Numbers coppied direct from the invoice
No I don't know if it's fast enough or big enough, or understand them either, but it's crystal clear & nice to look at lol

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FollowupID: 503678

Follow Up By: rbt - Sunday, May 27, 2007 at 20:18

Sunday, May 27, 2007 at 20:18
heya Mainey,

yep, tha's an overkill fr my game

is your harddrive speed 5800??
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FollowupID: 503771

Follow Up By: Mainey (WA) - Monday, May 28, 2007 at 09:04

Monday, May 28, 2007 at 09:04
rbt,
HDD Model is FUJITSU MHV2120BH with 2 x partitions, ‘C’ @ 40GB & ‘D’ @ 65GB, however can’t find any ‘speed’ specifications in “System Information” section of “Hardware Summary” on “System Tools” do I look elsewhere ??

I have no real clue what all the numbers mean other than the 2gig ram is large, the T7200 chip is 'mega fast' & 1680 x 1050 pixel SXGA+ screen really delivers crystal clear display, it shows individual hairs on a head clearly even when originally photographed at 30Mtrs.
For picture work it shows truly amazing quality images.
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FollowupID: 503870

Reply By: pjchris - Saturday, May 26, 2007 at 16:30

Saturday, May 26, 2007 at 16:30
If your generator /charger won't keep up with the discharge rate on the batteries running the inverter then you either need to discharge slower or charge faster.

I, personally, would not run a desktop (or a laptop) directly off a cheap generator as the outputs can swing wildly in voltage as the load changes. And I'm not talking spikes either. The actual output voltage on some of the cheapies can vary from under 200v when a load is applied to over 280v for short periods when removed. And by short period I mean 1-5 seconds not one or two cycles...

The other issue is that the frequency of the output can vary quite a bit too and the further it moves from what the power supply was designed for the hotter the PS will get and the more likely it is to fail.

Measure the discharge rate (i.e. the current drawn by the inverter) and use a 12v mains run charger (Not the 12v from the generator) to charge the battery faster.

I don't know of any cheap (or even not so cheap) generator that can provide more than 10-20A from the 12V 'battery charging' circuit and that is not going to keep up with a desktop computer.

Peter

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AnswerID: 242545

Reply By: DIO - Saturday, May 26, 2007 at 17:22

Saturday, May 26, 2007 at 17:22
Perhaps to better understand your reasons for wanting to run a desktop (PC I presume) from an 'alternate power supply' you might want to explain why you wish to do so.
AnswerID: 242557

Reply By: rbt - Saturday, May 26, 2007 at 18:14

Saturday, May 26, 2007 at 18:14
i cant afford a laptop with the same specs...

another question is: is there such a thing as 12v pc power-supply...

so a cheap generator rigged to charge my batteries should keep up with the draw rate, i agree - i guess ive just got to work out if my charge wires are efficient.

AnswerID: 242570

Follow Up By: Blaze - Saturday, May 26, 2007 at 23:47

Saturday, May 26, 2007 at 23:47
Even if you had the PC running on 12volt what would you run the monitor off of.
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Reply By: Mike Harding - Saturday, May 26, 2007 at 18:42

Saturday, May 26, 2007 at 18:42
You take a desktop computer bush!!??

You can run it from a cheap two stroke gen, such as my $98 GMC, however there are a few caveats:

ensure the gen is running and warmed up before plugging the PC in
do not plug (or unplug) other appliances into the gen whilst the PC is operating
unplug the PC before stopping the gen
_do not_ allow the gen to run out of fuel

whilst the above list may sound a little frightening it applies to all small generators which are running expensive equipment - even a Honda! Having said that an expensive gen will be less susceptible to these issues than a cheap one - which is why they cost 15 times as much but they are not immune from them!

All PCs use a switched mode power supply - most (all?) of them have a very wide range of voltage acceptance and similarly with frequency so the small variations of a gen won't bother them. A couple of years ago I posted an analysis of my $98 GMC gen (which is still running well btw) to this site and apart from a little sine wave distortion it produced good voltage and frequency specs.

Mike Harding
AnswerID: 242574

Follow Up By: Mr Fawlty - Sunday, May 27, 2007 at 11:18

Sunday, May 27, 2007 at 11:18
Have to agree Harding, yet again! The "power Supply" in most of these electronic marvels these days are designed to cope with some weird voltages and in fact the apparatus rarely uses the 240Vac in it's raw state, always dropped to a safe level and always filtered to the devices requirements.
I have used an ALDI $100 special for powering a laptop, a microwave, lighting and various appliances that just use a resistance to heat things eg electric frypan and toaster (NO NOT ALL ON TOGETHER) and the only appliance that acted weirdly was a vacuum cleaner (explain that one Harding!!)
If you are worried about spikes run the juice thru a surge buster type powerboard.
Most electrical stuff copes with even square sine wave power. In the real world I reckon the actual power grid povides the large filtering capacitor that stabilises the mains, thou I guess if you live at the end of a long SWER run you may think otherwise.
Common sense should prevail and warm the generator up before putting load onto it.
KISS
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Follow Up By: Mike Harding - Sunday, May 27, 2007 at 16:05

Sunday, May 27, 2007 at 16:05
>I have used an ALDI $100 special for powering a laptop, a
>microwave, lighting and various appliances… and the only
>appliance that acted weirdly was a vacuum cleaner (explain
>that one Harding!!)

G’Day Fawlty

I’m glad you asked that question because this is an issue with square wave inverters which is little understood and the subject of much confusion – even in the scientific community, I might add!

Now, as you will know Fawlty, small vacuum cleaners (in common with a few other similar appliances) utilise a shunt wound, series/parallel universal motor, often with capacitive power factor correction and herein lies the problem: because the windings (field and armature) of these motors must be very tightly wound over a mu metal magnetic shield (due to space and heat dissipation issues) it creates very sharp angles in the copper wire of the winding. Normally this is not an issue because a 240V sine wave supply only changes at a, comparatively, slow rate however a square wave inverter (as it’s name suggests) has very rapid rates of change when the waveform reaches, and descends from, peak voltage – we’re approaching the nub of the science now – and with the more recent MOSFET switching technology which is _very_ fast does not allow time for electron progression in the windings (due to the sharpness of the bends – which is why some cleaners will work but others won’t – manufacturing tolerances). This is where real problems may develop: normally it won’t be an issue, there will simply be a build up of electrons in the negative polarity which will cause a high voltage to develop at the MOSFET and possibly blow a fuse. (Electron flow is from negative to positive, obvious really). HOWEVER it has been observed that in rare instances where the MOSFETs have received an unusually high level of ‘n’ channel doping (manufacturing flaw) a situation has developed causing electron discharge into the local atmosphere; again this is usually safe enough but there is a (albeit small) risk that in an environment which uses ionising smoke detectors utilising Strontium 4 as the detecting element the excess electron cloud could result in a chain reaction causing a cold fusion process to commence. Although this would be invisible to individuals the EMP pulse generated could well destroy any electronic equipment in the near vicinity (and males of a reproductive inclination should be cautious too!) .

freeenergynews.com/Directory/ColdFusion/

As I say: not a lightly occurrence but please be wary of vacuum cleaners and square wave inverters.

Thanks again for raising this Fawlty.

Mike Harding

mike_harding@fastmail.fm
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FollowupID: 503690

Follow Up By: Mr Fawlty - Sunday, May 27, 2007 at 17:50

Sunday, May 27, 2007 at 17:50
Harding, I'm nominating you for a Nobel physics award....It of course makes sense now. Did you see many years ago on the ABC that Swiss physiscist(= one who makes fizzy drinks) explain how he could get one of the original Berne trams, hand built by none less than Bobby Bosch so built around 1880 to get up to light speed? Absolutley intriguing television. These trams had motors that had armateurs that looked like a ball of string, same sort of shape, anyway this guy therorised that if you wound back the field voltage the motors would increase in speed until light speed was attained. Of course this would be as impractical as ordering a light year of 19X45 radiata pine and expecting it all to come on the one truck because as we all know when you get near light speed all you see is straight white lines radiating out from the centre of your vision so you could not see intending passengers waiting.
I wish I was of reproductive inclination well I am but the word "incapable" springs to mine....
I'm going to have to shout you a scotch Harding or perhaps you would like me to pass your email addy onto Ms Lucy Blake so she can bombard you with her sick emails?
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FollowupID: 503714

Follow Up By: Mike Harding - Sunday, May 27, 2007 at 18:16

Sunday, May 27, 2007 at 18:16
>Harding, I'm nominating you for a Nobel physics award

Thank you Fawlty. Both Millicent and I feel it's somewhat overdue especially since the publication of my paper "Rabbits: The future fusion fast breeder technology".

>I'm going to have to shout you a scotch Harding

Glenmorangie or Laphroaig would go down well thank you :)

>perhaps you would like me to pass your email addy onto Ms Lucy Blake

I think I'll pass on that one Fawlty - thanks all the same, but it would be good to enjoy that whiskey with you :)

Mike Harding
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Follow Up By: rbt - Sunday, May 27, 2007 at 20:34

Sunday, May 27, 2007 at 20:34
pant pant pant - jus' keeping upo here...
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Follow Up By: Mr Fawlty - Monday, May 28, 2007 at 14:21

Monday, May 28, 2007 at 14:21
Gees do I look Greek to you Harding? If so you have to beware of Greeks and trojan horses... Next thing I want explained is how these electrons which for all practical purposes have no mass for if they did they could not travel at the speed they do can't negotiate sharp bends....Then you'll be trying to tell me that a length of copper wire in which the electrons are subdued weighs the same as the same piece of copper wire when the switch is thrown and the electrons get all excited....
Now I'm going to go to www.nobelnominations.de as I reckon seeing You and Milicent formally attired to get your award would be worth all the offensive emails that Ms Blake could compose & send in her lifetime....(she has stopped by the way - & I kind of miss my morning dose of obscenities when I check outlook)
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FollowupID: 503941

Reply By: Turist - Saturday, May 26, 2007 at 19:36

Saturday, May 26, 2007 at 19:36
Think about using a UPS maybe running off the 240V output from generator and plug the computer into into the smoothed power supply from the ups. This will work as a surge protector too.
AnswerID: 242589

Follow Up By: Keith_A (Qld) - Saturday, Jun 09, 2007 at 20:07

Saturday, Jun 09, 2007 at 20:07
Hi Turist - noticed you owned a Crusader Van (Factory is in Melbourne I understand).
Could you give us some feedback on its quality, ability, fittings, suspension etc.
A friend is looking at buying one.

Thanks........................Keith
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FollowupID: 506792

Reply By: rbt - Saturday, May 26, 2007 at 19:55

Saturday, May 26, 2007 at 19:55
You take a desktop computer bush!!??" ... yep, lol, cause i got a G3 modem..

...lol...the only prob Iv had is mounting the 20inch screen...

Many thanks for the list of do & dont's...

How have you quietened down that little two-stroke....

UPS, yes, that is in consideration, infact, it may be part of a solution...
AnswerID: 242593

Follow Up By: Mike Harding - Saturday, May 26, 2007 at 20:09

Saturday, May 26, 2007 at 20:09
If you can do a "Follow Up" rather than a "Reply" it help to keep the continuity of the thread.

Yesss... the 20" screen would be a worry.... :)

>How have you quietened down that little two-stroke....

I only use it for battery charging so I just move it 100m away from camp - noise? what noise? :)

What's a G3 modem?

Mike Harding
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FollowupID: 503559

Follow Up By: pjchris - Saturday, May 26, 2007 at 21:55

Saturday, May 26, 2007 at 21:55
A G3 modem is a modem for wireless broadband that works over a '3G' phone network like Telstra's NextG network.

Peter

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Follow Up By: rbt - Saturday, May 26, 2007 at 22:20

Saturday, May 26, 2007 at 22:20
120ms pings to my game server from several camping grounds so far .. pretty darn good with still the top plan to go.....

20mins from my two wets & 500w inverter.... i dont hink a third battery will help unless it the $400 one
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FollowupID: 503584

Follow Up By: Mainey (WA) - Sunday, May 27, 2007 at 12:54

Sunday, May 27, 2007 at 12:54
rbt,
Does "20mins from my two wets & 500w inverter.... i don't hink a third battery will help unless it the $400 one " mean as I think it means, that you get 20 minutes usage from 2 x wet cell batteries, while using a 500Watt Inverter ???

What capacity are the 2 x batteries?
What brand & type of Inverter is it?
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FollowupID: 503665

Follow Up By: rbt - Sunday, May 27, 2007 at 13:25

Sunday, May 27, 2007 at 13:25
yep, only 20 mins,

the inverter was a "super force", cuts out at 10.2 amps
battery is a large century, cant see specs, buried..

ive got to check my chargeing system.... there is some big thick battery leads going from the second battery to a big steel looking thing which i can barely see but can hear when turning the ignitian off and on. Also coming from the second battery is some thin wires, 3-4mm (not 6mm) with some fuses and anderson plugs.

I would like to replace all the charge wiring from the alternator, it could be thicker and whats there looks tired...
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FollowupID: 503671

Follow Up By: Mainey (WA) - Sunday, May 27, 2007 at 19:03

Sunday, May 27, 2007 at 19:03
rbt, you have a problem charging the battery.

The "big steel looking thing which i can barely see but can hear when turning the ignitian off and on" would be a mechanical solenoid and probably causing half of your charging problem.

you say--> "Also coming from the second battery is some thin wires, 3-4mm (not 6mm) with some fuses and anderson plugs"
Question; where do they go to ??
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Follow Up By: rbt - Sunday, May 27, 2007 at 20:22

Sunday, May 27, 2007 at 20:22
where do they go - thats the 64k question - im intimidated by wiring and have put off taking the seat, fridge etc out - but i need to do it by the looks...

darn - i thought the mechanical solenoid was classy - looks like it came from the 30's but is retro-cool...lol...

tomorrow ill do an audit of my batt's and wiring - was hoing it would be right - i do get 3 days from my firdge
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FollowupID: 503772

Follow Up By: Mainey (WA) - Monday, May 28, 2007 at 09:18

Monday, May 28, 2007 at 09:18
rbt, to get 3 days from a (from memory) century battery while running a fridge is not unrealistic or too bad at all, so I would look elsewhere for problems and not only at the battery.

Maybe the computer is simply power hungry OR the inverter is inefficient OR the combination is not practicable for efficient 12v use.
On the back of the monitor and also computer tower/box will be power consumption numbers, they may give you some vital clues as to efficiency.
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FollowupID: 503875

Reply By: rbt - Sunday, May 27, 2007 at 13:26

Sunday, May 27, 2007 at 13:26
first battery is a standard no-name...
AnswerID: 242685

Reply By: nowimnumberone - Sunday, May 27, 2007 at 18:41

Sunday, May 27, 2007 at 18:41
i have a cheap genny
i have a cheap lappy
i made a plug that goes into the back of the lappy where the power wire usually plugs in.
on the end of the wire i stripped the wire back about 1 inch
the cheap genny comes with a plug to charge your batterys
i conected the plugs from the charger leads to the bared leads into the lappy and away it went didnt blow up did nothing but work perfectly
not that i recomend any one to do it that way i just needed to download some pics and the power supply that came with the lappy stopped working
cheers
AnswerID: 242724

Follow Up By: rbt - Sunday, May 27, 2007 at 20:44

Sunday, May 27, 2007 at 20:44
`i have a lappy with a busted ps - i was going to wire power to the wires that connect to the little board i can see in the batteyr bay, that is attached directly after the laptop battery.

this is plan 2 if i cant get the pc uo but looks like im ot for an elcheapo gennie tommorrow.......
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FollowupID: 503779

Reply By: rbt - Monday, Jun 04, 2007 at 13:56

Monday, Jun 04, 2007 at 13:56
on further inspection i find my first battery, not a large one, is very fit and healthy... where-as my second battery, a "Supa-Power" 160rpc 330cca, wont hold much of its charge for very long...

that is, wont hold over 10volts for too long while supplying a 500w inverter...

on doing some reading i discovered even gels dont like more than 20% discharge per day which means to run my 450w desktop pc for 4 hours a day id really need 5 big gels plus a whole ot of wires and chargeer and stuff to get thru a week, with the firidge an lites too......

so for what is happenning ATM, is not too bad... yep, the big battery is prolly murdered and i almost replaced it with a big deep wet but the amount of them id need plus the charging makes it a little unrealistic...

intstead i am going to buy a lappyu with a nice fat video card in it and go solar and prolly save the angst of lifting those cexy muthers...

***************

But why is my crank battery flat in the morning...

I bought a multi-meter, with my car off and the second battery disconnected there is no reading from the normally active cig-plug...

i have three thin red wires running from the positive of my second batt...
& two thicks going to the solenioid...

one thin goes to the fridge plug...
and the ther two i cant see..
there is a black thin running from the neg to the fridge plug too...

But why is my crank battery flat in the morning...

is it possible that my temp dissconnected alarm could be going off???? and drqwaing heaps

have bought multi-meter

secind battery doesnt hold much charge even thoit is a Supa-Powa 160m rpa 330cca.
AnswerID: 244648

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