OT - High Tensile v's Stainless Steel

Submitted: Monday, Aug 27, 2007 at 13:58
ThreadID: 49062 Views:22702 Replies:10 FollowUps:11
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Hi all, quick question - what differences would I notice strength wise between say a 75mm x 12mm high tensile bolt and a 4" x 3/8" stainless bolt?

Reason I ask is need to source a 75mm x 12mm high tensile bolt for my bull bar mounting (there are 4 bolts per side, I have 3 x 50mm high tensile's in there now, last one needs to be 75mm to reach the captive nut in the chassis). At the moment I've got a 4" x 3/8" stainless bolt going straight through the captive nut with it's own nut and associated washers in place of the 75mm x 12mm.

If the strength is similar I won't bother changing them over but if not I will of course.

Thanks for any input in advance.
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Reply By: Ingtar - Monday, Aug 27, 2007 at 14:39

Monday, Aug 27, 2007 at 14:39
High Tensile is strongest under tension - ie when it is bolted tight, it will clamp your bar to your chassis. Whether it is stronger for shearing (sideways) forces depends on the grade of the HT vs the grade of stainless.

The reason I mention shearing is... if you need a 75mm bolt to reach the nut, does this mean it is passing through your chassis to get to a nut on the other side of the rail? If this is the case, I don't know that there will be much advantage to using HT, though there will be some chance of distorting your rails.

May not be the case, but that's just the way I read it. Of course if you are spacing it out with a big stack of washers you should replace it just to make your pride and joy look tidy anyway. :)
AnswerID: 259059

Follow Up By: Member - Gavin B (NSW) - Monday, Aug 27, 2007 at 14:49

Monday, Aug 27, 2007 at 14:49
Thanks Ingtar, yep you read it correctly, it passes through the chassis rail to the captive welded nut on the inside of the opposite wall.

At the moment I have a 3/8" bolt (316 stainless) that passes right through the chassis rail and clamps both sides of the bar mount to the chassis rail. Looks nice and neat however it's only a 3/8" bolt as it has to pass through the captive nut.

I don't think shear force would be the major issue unless the bar was forced upwards as the bar mount is a full U-shaped section that fits over the chassis rail. It's also hard up against the end of the chassis rail at the leading edge which you would think would stop it pushed back in the event of an impact.

So in short, I think it's 'clamping' strength that I need.
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Follow Up By: Ingtar - Monday, Aug 27, 2007 at 16:15

Monday, Aug 27, 2007 at 16:15
You're right, the bolts should provide clamping strength only, then the friction between the two plates should hold the bar on.

If it is just a bar, and hard up against then it should stop it pushing back (without bending the rest of your car :) however if you ever try to pull anything with it, shear strength will be more important. Whether this is a winch, recovery points, pulling trees out of a garden or landing the bar on a rock or something... you never know which might get used a few years down the track with all thought of bolt type forgotten.

Given that the bolt is passing through the rail, I take it there is no hole on the opposite side of the bar. If it was mine I would be tempted to drill a hole so that a short bolt clamps the two tight, rather than pulling the opposite side of the rails.

That's just my thought, I guess it depends how you use your vehicle and what you can see yourself doing with it. Also, if you are having trouble finding the right size HT bolt, there are a few companies around that specialise in fixings. Whole warehouses full of nothing but nuts and bolts, leave places like Coventrys for dead. If you speak to some tradesmen mates they should be able to direct you to one in your area.
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Reply By: japmel - Monday, Aug 27, 2007 at 14:39

Monday, Aug 27, 2007 at 14:39
You would be better off with High Tensile, As stainless steel is not really all that strong when it comes to shearing off.

Regards
John
AnswerID: 259060

Reply By: Member - Mike_L (SA) - Monday, Aug 27, 2007 at 16:30

Monday, Aug 27, 2007 at 16:30
I'd go HT, 8.8 grade would be fine...10.9 or 12.9 even better.
Coventry Fasters should be able to help you out.

BTW. Nice Lab!!
AnswerID: 259073

Follow Up By: Member - Gavin B (NSW) - Tuesday, Aug 28, 2007 at 10:11

Tuesday, Aug 28, 2007 at 10:11
LOL thanks Mike, have often thought the same of yours when I've seen your posts.

Great dogs aren't they.

Cheers
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Follow Up By: Rick (S.A.) - Tuesday, Aug 28, 2007 at 20:14

Tuesday, Aug 28, 2007 at 20:14
I am admiring the tray top modification shown on your rig profile.
Was it done here in SA? - and by whom?

Would you do it the same again, if given the opportunity?
Why aluminium? If weight were not critical, would you go steel with a timber floor??

Any comments for me to be aware of, as I have a GU patrol & I am considering modifying

thanks & Cheers
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Follow Up By: Member - Mike_L (SA) - Tuesday, Aug 28, 2007 at 21:07

Tuesday, Aug 28, 2007 at 21:07
Rick,

To tell the truth it's not mine. I came across this one in Penola last year. I also posted on here asking some questions, so try a search.
I was led to believe a company in Queensland did this type of conversion.


Mick.
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Reply By: Member - Vincent A M (NSW) - Monday, Aug 27, 2007 at 16:39

Monday, Aug 27, 2007 at 16:39
I would not be using stainless as its s shear strength is quite low,
& is not hard to even shear of a 1/2 bolt with a extension brace. Stainless also has a bad habit of biding up on the thread & then you will have to shear it off, & then the captive nut in the chassis what a bastard.

The cost for Stainless is so much more expensive as well
AnswerID: 259074

Reply By: Olcoolone- Monday, Aug 27, 2007 at 17:26

Monday, Aug 27, 2007 at 17:26
When talking about tensile strenght of bolts doesn't mean the higher the tensile the stronger the bolt.

There are many factors when chosing bolt grade like clamp force,plyability, shear strenght and stretch.

There is not one grade that is the bees knees of bolts, they all have differant applications.

You may find a grade 12.9 bolt in some applications may bleep ter due to vibration or harmonics whereby a grade 8.8 will last.

A stainless bolt mayby not sutiable for some applications becuase the composit of stainless, but might be better for corrsive enviroments.


Regards Richard
AnswerID: 259080

Follow Up By: Richard Kovac - Monday, Aug 27, 2007 at 21:16

Monday, Aug 27, 2007 at 21:16
Hi Richard

What do you do for a crust?

Regards

Richard
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Follow Up By: Olcoolone- Monday, Aug 27, 2007 at 21:58

Monday, Aug 27, 2007 at 21:58
Im a slave for the goverment paying them money.

We have a few business interests, refrigeration, fabrication, electrical and engineering plus a couple thing out side those industries.

Why, your now going to give me a hard time are you?

I know I should keep my mouth shut.

Regards Richard
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Follow Up By: Richard Kovac - Monday, Aug 27, 2007 at 22:07

Monday, Aug 27, 2007 at 22:07
No I'm not

I was just wondering, as you are very knowledgeable on a lot of your answers.

I was just asking to be sure the knowledge was coming from someone who knows.

No harm meant.

Some time knowing so much can overpower some people on this forum .. I have learned just to get over it...LOL

Cheers

Richard
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Follow Up By: Member - Roachie (SA) - Monday, Aug 27, 2007 at 22:09

Monday, Aug 27, 2007 at 22:09
You're too modest Richard.......... you forgot to mention that you also manufacture whistles for kettles!!!!
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Follow Up By: Richard Kovac - Monday, Aug 27, 2007 at 22:25

Monday, Aug 27, 2007 at 22:25
God now you're got me confused
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Follow Up By: Olcoolone- Monday, Aug 27, 2007 at 22:47

Monday, Aug 27, 2007 at 22:47
Yeah Roachie Iv'e got to come and see you soon about venture financing of our new place in China, 16000 square meters of factory and about 390 employees.

Spoke to Lucky and he said that with the money you spend on the truck each year you would be the ideal investor and he said....d.rkt.ft.t.f..y..yy..hh....f.ff.....uu..vgf..d.. as well.

Richard we have a few new projects we are working on at the moment being a self homing kettle whistle and a anti theft device too.

I am slowly learning not to respond to the posts I have in the past and yes overpowering people can be a issue.

I answer posts because I like helping people out not because I want to be better then them or show them up, Im more then happy to recieve criticism as long as it,s backed up by a suported view.

We are all here to learn and Iv'e learnt so much off of this forum it's astonishing.

There are some very smart people here.

One thing I don't like is people causing trouble.

Oh well this forun is not the place to discuse that so I will leave it
at that.

So Roachie about the money I come and see you Friday!

Regards Richard
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Reply By: kev.h - Monday, Aug 27, 2007 at 18:13

Monday, Aug 27, 2007 at 18:13
Just a thought IF its not fitted to the manufacturers spec as to bolt type, size and method of attachment your insurance have a way out if for some reason it causes damage (ie falls off while driving ) also the vehicle will not be roadworthy - Makes the cost of the correct bolts look cheap
Regards Kev
AnswerID: 259092

Reply By: Exploder - Monday, Aug 27, 2007 at 19:34

Monday, Aug 27, 2007 at 19:34
Stainless isn't even close to High tensile strength.

If i remember correctly the Std stainless boults you buy are a A2-70 it's around grade 6 so not even close to the minimum i would be using which would be a 8.8.

Cheers.
AnswerID: 259106

Reply By: glids - Monday, Aug 27, 2007 at 19:35

Monday, Aug 27, 2007 at 19:35
I would strongly recommend the high tensile bolts on two counts...

1. Grade 8.8 bolts (normal high tensile, but not the strongest) have a yield stress of 640 MPa - this is the point where they start to 'give'. Stainless bolts will be somewhere around 230 Mpa!

2. You said that the correct bolts are 12mm diameter. The stainless steel bolts are 3/8" = 9.54mm. There is a HUGE difference in cross sectional area (and 'stress area' which is the area at the thread). The strength of a bolt, whether in tension or shear, is determined by multiplying the yield stress by the cross sectional area.

The HT bolts will win hands down!

cheers,
glids
AnswerID: 259107

Reply By: Member - Gavin B (NSW) - Tuesday, Aug 28, 2007 at 10:14

Tuesday, Aug 28, 2007 at 10:14
Thanks to everyone for all of the replies, I shall change to HT bolts I think, good advice.

Thanks again.

Gavin
AnswerID: 259201

Reply By: Ozboc - Wednesday, Aug 29, 2007 at 07:20

Wednesday, Aug 29, 2007 at 07:20
Just to add a late comment also, not in your case - but in places where the tensile strenght of a bolt is VERY important. Once a High tensile bolt has been torqued up to it rating - then later undone - this bolt should be thrown away as it had been fully stretched to achieve its full safe rating and reuse of this bolt will increase the chances of a bolt shear.Places bolts should be used only once are places like head bolts on motors - bottom end bolts stearing , brakes and other high torque application areas to mention just a few

Boc

AnswerID: 259332

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