Nissan Patrol Towing Capability
Submitted: Thursday, Jan 10, 2008 at 10:58
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meercat
Hi fellow readers, I own a 2001 GU Petrol/Gas patrol (auto) and tow a Jayco Eagle Outback which I believe is around 1100kg. Can anyone offer some advice regarding why my vehicle struggles to tow uphill regardless of whether on petrol or gas. On the open highway I may be doing around 100-110kms but as soon as there is a slight incline, the Patrol can't handle it and will easily drop back to around 80kms. You really notice the lag on any incline and it isn't pleasant at all. I drop it back to 3rd from Drive and even use the overdrive on incline approach just to get the rig up the
hill - surely the patrol can't be this bad. Considering it is rated to tow 2500kg, I reckon if I towed something this heavy I wouldn't even make it up a
hill. I have had the gas serviced and the petrol done some 5,000kms ago. It ran slightly better but still tows like an old dog. No modifications have been made to the vehicle except a hyclone filter.
Someone suggested it is probably the fuel injectors - they could be dirtly and need cleaning. I have run a couple of tanks of optimum unleaded including the injector clean you buy off the shelf to put into the tank, but still no noticeable difference.
Can anyone offer some advice? Hopefully someone else out there has or is experiencing similar.
Reply By: Member - shane (SA) - Thursday, Jan 10, 2008 at 13:04
Thursday, Jan 10, 2008 at 13:04
hi mate, i know you said no mods, but has it got bigger tyres? look on inside glove box lid for tyre size. also good reason to try without hyclone.
check air filter, most people say thats ok but have a good look, you never know. after all that i would get a compression
test.
cheers.
AnswerID:
280752
Follow Up By: meercat - Thursday, Jan 10, 2008 at 13:30
Thursday, Jan 10, 2008 at 13:30
Hi thanks for your reply. Has BF Goodrich tyres which were on the vehicle when I bought it. Forgive my ignorance but how would this make a difference? Air filter was replaced at last service but suggestion on the compression
test is definitely worthwhile.
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Follow Up By: Member - Pixie - Thursday, Jan 10, 2008 at 13:36
Thursday, Jan 10, 2008 at 13:36
different diameter on tyres will give different speed readings
turning big wheels takes more effort than turning a small wheel (magnified when towing) - think about the cogs on a bicycle then put an elephant on that bicycle
FollowupID:
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Follow Up By: Member - Matthew ( United Fuel - Thursday, Jan 10, 2008 at 14:30
Thursday, Jan 10, 2008 at 14:30
BFG's are the WORST tyre for sucking HP out of engine!!!!!!!!
We see it time after time on the dyno.
MAtt
FollowupID:
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Follow Up By: Ken - Thursday, Jan 10, 2008 at 18:10
Thursday, Jan 10, 2008 at 18:10
Matthew, what evidence can you muster in support of this ! Honestly mate I think you are either a) looking for a bite so, congrats you got one! b) one of the great misinformed who post their prejudices on these sites based on god knows what evidence.
Ken
FollowupID:
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Follow Up By: Member - Matthew ,United Fuel- Thursday, Jan 10, 2008 at 23:40
Thursday, Jan 10, 2008 at 23:40
What evidence do i have.
I happen to be a PARTNER in
UNITED FUEL INJECTION in
Perth who is the largest and best equiped fuel shops in WA.
We dyno,repair,upgrade,modify,suggest,consult on 4wd vehicles daily,and from that i can tell you aside from the likes os M/T tyres they ARE the worst tyre to reduce potential output to the rear wheels in an A/T format.They are consistantly higher than all types of A/T tyres.
Im not prejudice just work in the industry and know what i see and report it as
well.Are they a good all round tyre,sure but they are power hungry .
Matt
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Follow Up By: Ken - Saturday, Jan 12, 2008 at 14:26
Saturday, Jan 12, 2008 at 14:26
Matt, I was looking for evidence of your assertion, not your pedigree ! Unless you have used the same vehicle under the same
test conditions and did repeated tests with a range of tyre types then your opinion is simply that, an opinion.
Even the most experienced people in their particular field of work cannot simply make sweeping statements and rely on their status within the field as justification of a point of view. You have given readers no details of any tests you may have conducted, you have not given any details of the testing methodology you may have used and are relying on your perceived standing in the 4WD world to make a judgement. If you can't respond with some details of how you reached the conclusion that they are "power hungry" you are clearly head to category b.
Ken
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Follow Up By: Member - Matthew ,United Fuel- Saturday, Jan 12, 2008 at 18:33
Saturday, Jan 12, 2008 at 18:33
Ken
Take it as you will, i tend not to enter into debates about petty crimes.It means nothing at the end of the day,you BIT and i pulled a little more.Repeated
test with a range of tyre types you say,an avergae of 30 dyno runs a week would probably cover that but thats another story.
Let it go my friend ,there are many dyno sheets i can show you how much they take over different types of tyres,i dont document them as i dont need to ive seen it too many times.
Matt
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Follow Up By: Ken - Sunday, Jan 13, 2008 at 10:01
Sunday, Jan 13, 2008 at 10:01
Matt,
Happy to let it go, your responses only reinforce my initial view that it looked like an unsubstantiated claim which is not supported by any controlled
test conditions. 30 or 30 thousand
test runs it makes no difference if the
test isn't done where the only variable is the type of tyre.
At least there now isn't only your unproven comment on hungry tyres on the record. There is your total lack of appreciation for controlled testing conditions that people can see and they can make their own call on whether they believe you.
All you have to do now is sit back and hope the tyre distributer or manufacturer doesn't ask you to prove your point. That might involve a bit more than telling them about your role as a PARTNER and how busy you are !
Good luck
Ken
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Follow Up By: Member - Matthew ,United Fuel- Sunday, Jan 13, 2008 at 18:59
Sunday, Jan 13, 2008 at 18:59
Happy to supply dyno runs with the different tyre types to once again remove all doubt about what the findings are. Supply a valid email address and i will forward them on.
MAtt
FollowupID:
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Reply By: Penguin (NSW) - Thursday, Jan 10, 2008 at 13:49
Thursday, Jan 10, 2008 at 13:49
Hi
I tow a
Penguin which I've weighed at 1300kg with a petrol Landcruiser and it really does slow down on hills. I agree with your estimate of 80km/hr on steeper ones. I think it's just a fact of life with a petrol engine.
The next tug will be a turbo diesel. I just need to convince the minister of finance. ;-)
Mike
AnswerID:
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Follow Up By: meercat - Thursday, Jan 10, 2008 at 15:26
Thursday, Jan 10, 2008 at 15:26
Hi there Mike, is your cruiser also noticeably slower on inclines when you aren't towing as my patrol is
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Follow Up By: Penguin (NSW) - Thursday, Jan 10, 2008 at 15:32
Thursday, Jan 10, 2008 at 15:32
No, it performs quite
well when not towing. It's just when the trailer's there that it feels like I'm dragging an anchor.
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Follow Up By: meercat - Thursday, Jan 10, 2008 at 15:34
Thursday, Jan 10, 2008 at 15:34
I think there must be something wrong with my patrol then because even without the trailer it still seems to me that it struggles on the open road with inclines.
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Follow Up By: Penguin (NSW) - Thursday, Jan 10, 2008 at 15:41
Thursday, Jan 10, 2008 at 15:41
I'm not a Patrol expert but have you looked at ignition timing? Is it running a bit hot by any chance?
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Follow Up By: meercat - Friday, Jan 11, 2008 at 14:11
Friday, Jan 11, 2008 at 14:11
Hi
Penguin, good suggestion. I think I will take it to another mechanic and get them to have a good look. My layman understanding of ignition timing is that it works on the air/fuel mixture/spark plugs, so maybe the mix isn't right.
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Reply By: Steve Ellis - Thursday, Jan 10, 2008 at 14:14
Thursday, Jan 10, 2008 at 14:14
Gday Meercat. I have a 99 GU Petrol/Gas Patrol and it flies. You do need to
check that the tyres are the correct size or smaller diameter. Dont tow in overdrive except on downhill runs.
Check that you are not carrying too much weight. My wife had enough food in our van to feed an army. Empty the
water tank till you get to the last available supply and fill only what you estimate you will need till the next fill point. Water weighs 1 kilo per litre. Go through your van and if you havnt used an item in the last 2 trips you probably wont use it again. Everything else gets the " Do We really need this?" treatment. Pump the tyres up a few pounds over the recomended pressure. If you tow anything you will go slower than if you had nothing on the back. Be patient. They are not a sports car.
AnswerID:
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Follow Up By: meercat - Thursday, Jan 10, 2008 at 15:33
Thursday, Jan 10, 2008 at 15:33
Hi Steve, does your patrol fly even with a tow vehicle on the back? The tyres are 16's BFGs All Terrains. Checked weight at weighbridge and when loaded total weight is 1350kg. I also increase the air in the tyres by at least 4psi on all four. Inside the vehicle there is only 2 adults, an esky and a few bits and pieces but nothing real heavy.
So if your patrol flies what do you have that is different - a good mechanic??
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Reply By: Smudger - Thursday, Jan 10, 2008 at 14:16
Thursday, Jan 10, 2008 at 14:16
G'day meercat,
Mine's a Disco V8 dual fuel. I get amazingly good economy on lpg. But when towing the CT, economy goes out the window and she labours up
hill. Pulls better on petrol than on lpg. My mechanic (who is a real LPG wizard) tells me that he can fix it by tuning the vehicle exclusively for lpg. But, out there I need to have the option, so I sucks it in. I've spoken about this at length with lots of guys on the track. Bottom line is, whatever your rig, towing costs power and fuel.
Just for intersest my LPG figures: (Freeway speeds)
Not towing 16.3/100ks @ .70cents/ litre = $9/100ks
When towing - double the cost.
Compared to diesel achieving 11/100ks
@$1.50/litre = $16.50/100ks
AnswerID:
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Follow Up By: meercat - Thursday, Jan 10, 2008 at 15:36
Thursday, Jan 10, 2008 at 15:36
I haven't done my figures yet but on the next trip will be something I need to
check out. When the LPG was serviced the mechanic said it was running very rich but this service hasn't improved the towing capability at all. It still feels as if someone behind me is pulling me in the opposite direction.
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Reply By: meercat - Thursday, Jan 10, 2008 at 15:39
Thursday, Jan 10, 2008 at 15:39
Hi Shane as the patrol has only done around 108kms the mechanic said it shouldn't really need a compression
test.
AnswerID:
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Follow Up By: Member - shane (SA) - Thursday, Jan 10, 2008 at 16:03
Thursday, Jan 10, 2008 at 16:03
hi meercat, i think you mist the bit about the tyres, its not the rim size but the wall hight that makes the difference. the compression
test might still be a good idea as to eliminate that problem and give peace of mind.
cheers.
FollowupID:
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Reply By: Steve Ellis - Thursday, Jan 10, 2008 at 17:13
Thursday, Jan 10, 2008 at 17:13
Gday again Meercat. No the only Mechanic that goes near it is me and Im a retired Coalminer. and before that a plumber. I bought it second hand about three years ago with 260000 on the clock and it now has about 360000. I use
Shell lpg oil and change it and the filter every 10000. Like I said earlier They are not a sportscar even mt. The later models with the 4.8 petrol and twin overhead camshafts is. They are 185 kw. The 4.5 is 145 kw. 2.4 tonnes of truck takes a bit to get going. I tow a 18 foot jayco about the place and it knows it is on the back. Towing the van I get about 27 lires per 100kl. Without th van about 20 liters per 100klms. I also tow a Golf cart and then about 22lires per 100klms. I dont hang aroud. I am usually running late. With the price of lpg hitting 73 cents today and petrol 151cents I am still in front. When I bought it 3 years ago petrol was 87 cents and gas 34. Diesel here in Toronto NSW hit 160 cents today. Is another Arab war around the corner?
AnswerID:
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Reply By: Trevor R (QLD) - Thursday, Jan 10, 2008 at 19:31
Thursday, Jan 10, 2008 at 19:31
Out of interest, standard tyre size should have been 265 x 70 x 16 when your truck was new.
If your BFG's are any bigger than this, expect it to not only suck the power but put your speedo out as well. I have 265 x 75 x16 on my GU and the speedo is out by 4-5 kph (100 on the speedo is 105 on the gps).
Can't help you with power drain as mine is a t/diesel so my experience is useless to you.
Regards,
Trevor.
AnswerID:
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Follow Up By: meercat - Thursday, Jan 10, 2008 at 22:41
Thursday, Jan 10, 2008 at 22:41
Thanks Trevor, they are 265x70x16 and speedo according to those overhead highway devices appears to be pretty much what the odometer is saying give or take 2-3kms. GPS unit is almost dead on.
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Reply By: keith & louise - Thursday, Jan 10, 2008 at 20:20
Thursday, Jan 10, 2008 at 20:20
hi meercat
standard size foe the gu is 265/75/16 but when you fit BFG your roiling diameter will be much larger. a friend in QLD could not have them fitted as they are not legal even in the plate marked size. is your car a Ti? the Ti has a different gearing to suit the posh city drivers who only want luxury. this will not suit anybody who wants to tow.
regards
Keith
AnswerID:
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Follow Up By: meercat - Thursday, Jan 10, 2008 at 22:43
Thursday, Jan 10, 2008 at 22:43
Hi Keith yes it is the Ti. I thought the auto in both ST and Ti was exactly the same. It was just the cosmetic differences that were the distinguishing features. Why would the gearing be different and if so what is it exactly thats different.
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Reply By: Kenny Wilson - Thursday, Jan 10, 2008 at 22:13
Thursday, Jan 10, 2008 at 22:13
Hi meercat, how many Kw's does your engine produce ?
maybe 95kw's
It is a 2.5ton plus car with load behind it.
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Follow Up By: meercat - Thursday, Jan 10, 2008 at 22:44
Thursday, Jan 10, 2008 at 22:44
Not sure I will need to check the manual. It is the 4.5l Ti Patrol.
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Follow Up By: meercat - Friday, Jan 11, 2008 at 15:10
Friday, Jan 11, 2008 at 15:10
Hi Kenny, my patrol is meant to produce 145kw @ 4400rpm
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Reply By: westozal - Friday, Jan 11, 2008 at 11:18
Friday, Jan 11, 2008 at 11:18
Hello Meercat,
I tow a 5.8m(body length) Poptop Van with a 4.5 auto Landcruiser. It is also petrol/gas. On gas i feel it loses torque(pulling power) and yes it slows on hills markedly.
To counter this I change the trans manualy to keep a few revs on board....at the end of the day a few revs wont hurt the motor as much as labouring it. Big hills I go back to second at maybe 75-80 kmph.
I find the cruiser is happier to tow with overdrive off(most auto
places suggest not towing in overdrive) but i have also fitted taller tyres (295/75/16 bfg all terrains) which artificially makes the final drive ratio taller. ie when my actual ground speed is at 95kms my speedo says about 88 kmph.
A friend of mine owns same car as you and tows a 20 ft full offroad van with his and has no problems. His is auto and he again switches off overdrive, runs orginal size tyres.
Hope this may help you.
Alan.
AnswerID:
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Follow Up By: meercat - Friday, Jan 11, 2008 at 14:06
Friday, Jan 11, 2008 at 14:06
Thanks Alan, I find that using the overdrive prior to approaching incline does help somewhat but like you I mainly manually gear down. I haven't tackled any really big hills where I have had to go back to 2nd (yet!) . Does your friend with the patrol also experience significant speed reduction on hills?
It appears from the
forum response that what I am experiencing is pretty much the norm for the 4.5l petrol. I do find that a road with plenty of hills requires a lot of manual intervention and I even have huge semi-trailers overtaking me on hills - pretty embarrassing really. On the plus side and providing the road ahead is dead flat, I wouldn't even know the Camper is behind me.
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Follow Up By: meercat - Tuesday, Jan 15, 2008 at 12:29
Tuesday, Jan 15, 2008 at 12:29
Hi Alan, I must have trouble identifying my gear selection. I don't have 3rd as it is only a 4 speed auto so yes I do manually select 2nd on most
hill approaches.
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Reply By: westozal - Friday, Jan 11, 2008 at 16:23
Friday, Jan 11, 2008 at 16:23
Hello again,
Your description about how your Patrol preforms is fairly well normal including my friends ti patrol.
One of my other mates has had two GQ patrols 1988 and 1992 models a 98 gu 4.5 man and currently a 2001 4.8 auto. I have over the years been on trips with all these patrols and probably the biggest underperformer (maybe being a new model we expected to much) was the 4.5. Very reliable unit but thirsty and less power in comparision to the 4.5 cruiser of the day.The 4.8 is another story....goes very well but has 5 speed auto which makes a difference. Having the extra ratio makes it much more drivable.
I like my 80 but i'd love to have it running thru a 5 speed auto not the rather clunky 4 speeder in it now.
I also used to tow a offroad soft floor camper trailer with a diesel maverick, it used to find the camper a chore to tow. After I sold the camper and brought the van aside from headwinds there didnt seem much difference in towing the trailer or the van. I guess what im saying is that most off road trailers are hefty items and weigh a fair amount so your Patrol maybe doing better than you think.
Regards Alan.
AnswerID:
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Follow Up By: westozal - Friday, Jan 11, 2008 at 16:29
Friday, Jan 11, 2008 at 16:29
HI,
I would also add that the cruiser would probably climb the hills in third but wash off more speed in doing so. Thats why I do tend to change it manually and keep up momentum......just how I drive my car.
Regards Alan.
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Reply By: zigglemeister - Sunday, Jan 13, 2008 at 03:15
Sunday, Jan 13, 2008 at 03:15
Hi meercat,
I have a 99 GU 4.5 petrol/gas, manual, and I have felt the same about it - it just doesn't seem to have any real pulling power. The only solution I have found is to drop it back a gear at the bottom of the
hill. On the Patrol
forum there were some who felt that even though the old 4.2 in the GQ is only 125 kW, it had better torque midrange and actually felt better to drive than the GU. I've never driven a GQ myself so can't speak firsthand, but I found it an interesting comment.
The injectors will of course not make any difference to the way it runs on gas, only on petrol.
I have advanced my timing from 5 degrees (recommended) to ten degrees, and this does make it run a little better on gas, but not that much, and the tradeoff is that it pings its head off on petrol when going up hills. I'm planning to put it back to 5 degrees shortly, as I'm expecting to do some travelling in areas where gas isn't available.
AnswerID:
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Reply By: meercat - Tuesday, Jan 15, 2008 at 12:27
Tuesday, Jan 15, 2008 at 12:27
Thankyou to Everyone who offered their advice/suggestions/comments. I have removed the HiClone and have asked a Nissan specialist to take a look at the general things eg iginition timing, injectors etc. Will keep you posted on outcome.
AnswerID:
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