What sort of "Sorry" are we?

You're playing semantics here Ozboc.
It's fairly well accepted that sorry in the context of this subject is an apology.

I think it's simple.
There is a generation of people, who are still very much with us, who were treated very badly by a well meaning but ignorant white bureaucracy, and they are justifiably angry about it. Many of these people are my age (I ain't that old) and they were going through all this crap while I was grooving to the Beachboys 'Good Vibrations' without a care in the world.

I have no problem with the Government making an apology to them for the treatment that was inflicted on them by some people who were acting on 'our' behalf. Most (if not all) State Governments have already made their apologies. And sure, some of those people have sued and won compensation from State Governments, and good luck to them. No amount of money can give them back the life they might have had with their own families.

Good on you Steve...well said...and absolutely correct.
Fred.

My apologies to Axle as it should have been Axel (the real one).

Cheers Steve.

Thank god for a BRAIN!!

Thanks Steve !

Cheers AXLE!!

It was not only aboriginal children that were taken.

Hey there - Me, like most other uninformed opinionists - am of the belief that 'stolen' should be replaced with 'taken' as I understand that the children were 'taken' due to fears of harm to them by their own. Is it not true that the ones that were taken were of 'mixed race' and not accepted by the tribal elders - THIS IS A QUESTION NOT A STATEMENT.
Anyway, when are we going to realise that under our skin we are all the same species (that goes for both sides of the fence), it's 2008 & it disgusts me to think there is still racial tension in the world.
Cheers
Jason

Dunco, you are right with that. It was happening in Victoria labout 20 years ago when a certain Victorian Minister of Community Services had to account for it.

I'm an engineer Axle - spelling is not my strong point :)

I lost my parents in 1958 when I was 10 years old, nobody said
sorry to me, and we never had on going hand outs,
I know it is a different situation, re the Aboriginal stolen generation,
but it happened in the past, leave it there.

Daza

"
Johnny should have done it 10 years ago, remnants of his thinking are still around......"

And Paul should have done it before him
And Bob should have done it before him
And Malcolm should have done it before him .....

etc etc etc

Drop your political bias for once

Actually Kevin rudd is (unfortunatly) the leader of Australian Government doesnt matter if you are black white or yellow

Good to see someone in Government finally has the balls to say sorry...irrespective of their political preferences.
Good on you Kevin Rudd.

Gramps, that's the second time you've accused me of political bias. I struggle to understand where you are coming from.

I think I made my point clear about this issue. Political bias? I don't see your point.

Thank you Fred from NSW.

Barnesy

I just saw (whilst I was typing this) on the news Gramps that Mr Howard has refused to attend the 'sorry' service. Can anybody answer why? Mr Fraser, a liberal, will attend. Am I the one who is biased?

Fraser is now regarded as a left wing pinkie by most liberals.lol. At lest he is a fly fisheman
Pete

Barnesy,

Second time !!! You're losing count. If you're too stupid to understand it then I won't waste my time on explaining it in terms simple enough for you to comprehend.

Reading your member quote Gramps: Mr Howard resisted change on many issues and he ended up dieing from it. Only the second sitting PM in over 100 years to lose his own seat. LOL

I never voted for the Milky bar kid. didnt vote for Mr sheen either.

Nobody has the right to apologise for me, but me. Specially when I have done nothing wrong.

Its all a money take.. they want billions, and will get it, plus more and then more, then go to court, and get more again... And my tax will go up and up and up and up, and my family will get less and less and less.. Oh yea, IM all for it.

LMAO ! Start calling you "Grumpy Gramps" soon Al :-)

100% with you Truckster on all accounts, well said, as usual.

Cheers
Pezza

Pezza,

LOL I'm quite restrained actually.


Truckster,

I agree. The legal "profession" is beside itself with glee.

now get your wallet out.
Not quite so easy?

sadly fisho I await the claims and guff that may follow, however there was comment on the radio that Rudds apology will be made in Parliament and therefore is not subject to litigation......... We wait and see

I dunno fisho64 , you sound like a Liberal donator .

We have donated liberally in the past to several charities, especially PMH childrens hospital. Not so much now as I have a large family.
Not sure of the relevance though??

Crackles this is not a personal attack but, apart from throwing billions of dollars at the native Australian population, what do you suggest we as white Australians could do to lift their living standards?
they have the same access to medical as you an I,
the same access to government help as you and I,
they have the same access to public housing as you and I.
how far do we go.
after speaking to some native Australians and asking them what they want, guess what, they mostly want what every other person wants.
to live life the way they want,
to be happy,
to be able to pick and choose their own futures.
to work and spend their money the way they want,
to be seen as a worth while human been.
i don't know about you, but that's what i want.
its government policy that makes them, them and us.
cheers Shane.

Shane,
Having lived and worked with indigenous Australians, I sorry but I can't agree with your thoughts of what they receive from the Government and what they say they want !!

You can't blame any Government as you have done ""its government policy that makes them, them and us""

Mainey . . .

hi Mainey, please tell me then what they want? ( in general) i also have lived and worked with them, and my sister in laws brother is married to a native Australian. i have spent many a good time with her family, and have had this discussion many times.

Very well thought out words Shane.

We all want to choose our destiny. Unfortunately, some choose a good one and some choose a bad one. Sorry will not heal the wound, friendship, trust and support will.

BTW, are the churches going to say sorry as well? They had a fair hand in it also didn't they?

I agree Shane throwing more millions after bad is no solution. There needs to be a change.......a change in attitudes and the direction from all parties concerned cos what they've done up til now is certainly not working.
Cheers Craig......

Nicely said Barry

This apology is not meant to solve any social issues with current generations, as I understand it Davoe. It refers to an entirely different issue involving an entirely different generation. Nothing to do with what I assume you are refering to...IMHO...:-)

Fair question Steve - but I specifically started this thread in order to hear what others had to say - it's an emotive subject after all. Let's let it run for 24 hours or so....

I doubt anyone on this forum would accuse me of being shy of offering my opinion...? :)

Mike Harding

I was not sorry that the original post was deleted, as I was insulted by the lack of truth in its content.

I wasn't all that happy about this one to start, but it seems to be going down a respectable road at the moment.

There are some interesting comments so far.

Cheers Steve.

What lack of truth would that be Steve ? that we as a nation spend a total of $48,ooo.oo per yr per indigenous man /woman/ child ,its in the public record , sorry ? u betcha , good money after bad does not solve the problem.

If your biggest unhappiness is incorrect tatslotto numbers, on the law of averages you will be unhappy for a long time me thinks..LOL...:-))

so will the so-called stolen generation

Gday,
WOW!!!!
Now thats a statement!
How many people did you talk to to come up with that?

Its is partley true, but I wouldnt say that is the general feeling.

Cheers

If you really believe that dribble you posted before,

I would say you are the less fortunate one.

Steve.

Yeah Axel

Should you say SORRY for calling me a racist in a post deleted long ago?

Well each to his own ,, some people such as yourself Steve just cant see the truth of a dilemma when it presents itself ,, perhaps YOU can enlighten us of what we have to be sorry for , ,,,

Willem ,as if it would make any difference ,,,,??? non /zip / zilch.

Thats what I figured Axel...you are still at the top of my R.Sole List



LOL

were does the source of your information come from??

As for seeing the truth I see it more times in a day than you have in your life time.

You worry about how much we spend on Aboriginal people, when we spend a lot more on foreign aid and as for money spent on a per capita basis based on money spent on Aboriginal verses money spent on white people, Aboriginal people get stuff all.

Approx 95% of Aboriginal people live in remote Australia, 90 odd % of Australians live on the coast and were is 95% of the government infrastructure built? answer on the coast.

Aboriginal people never starved when there was drought, they were much smarter than that, that why they survived for 50000+ years.

You said they should thank us for their education, well here's the truth one of the out stations that Mal function visited, when he asked why so many kids didn't go to school, the answer was there are 600 kids and only 200 school places, and guess what since the intervention nothing has changed.

The trouble is Axel I could pull your original post to shreds with facts that would blow you away,( Except I don't have it, your post), the simple truth is you wouldn't understand it.

The trouble is Axel in the media half of what you read is Bull and the other half is Sh1t.

you should try spending more time finding out the facts as opposed to making a fool of yourself.

If any of this offends you, then think how the people that were taken from their families felt, because they unlike us they didn't have a say or the right to freedom of speech.

Please note the figures I quoted above are approximates only.

Steve

Steve,

"Approx 95% of Aboriginal people live in remote Australia"

Verrrrrrry aproximate depending on your definition of "remote".

Gday Steve,
I dont want to step into what sounds to be turning into a heated debate but a couple things you said arent quite right In my opinion.

You said :as for money spent on a per capita basis based on money spent on Aboriginal verses money spent on white people, Aboriginal people get stuff all."
Remember the money you say is spent on "white people" is for all people eg. roads hospitals housing etc is used by all people(aboriginals included).
Where on the other hand what is spent on Aboriginal is meant for and generaly only allowed for Aboriginals.

The other thing was the schools...
I have never seen an aboriginal school yet with full attendance, let alone not enough room.

Cheers

Facts Steve Facts , not approximates , facts from the public record .Dept of Aboriginal Affairs. budget spending .....and you still have not said what we as a nation should apologise for ,, should we apologise for trying to stop child rape ? forced "marriage" of 12 yr old girls to elder cousins ect ect because it is traditional ,, the only one who is full of s is when you look in the mirror and try to justify what cannot be justified by any reasonable person.

Axel If the original thread you posted were your words were did you get your facts from.

I do however suspect you jumped on a band wagon when you received the Email that a few others on this forum received.

As I said in a post above, We are not saying sorry to the whole Aboriginal population, we are saying sorry to a small portion that were taken from their families with little to no reason.

No the reasons you give above were not the reason they were taken then, how ever that is a problem in there society now.

If you are as smart as you think you are, you would have seen that that Email was based on no factual evidence and transfered it to your junk email box to delete later on.

Unless you can provide factual evidence to prove that email was correct in any way I couldn't give a rats arse what you think of me or my opinion, as I couldn't give any credence to you or your post without the facts to back it up with.

I await the facts.

Steve.

Axel

On reflection I will not be answering any more post on this thread.

So if you wish to follow up feel free, but do so with the knowledge that I will not respond.

I am not afraid of what you have to say, as you have your opinion and I have mine,it seems we will never agree, therefore I see no reason to continue this argument.

Cheers Steve.

Splits,
About time the other stolen generation had an apology too. Good on you Brian I hope all who have posted on this subject think long and hard about the Australians who do not know their parents,their only crime was being born out of wedlock,something that is the norm today.Cheers Snake and Josie

Yeah that's right BV. Leave em at home even if there are issues. That's the answer, give every mucked up kid his own personal full time welfare officer, we can afford that

BV,

I sincerely hope you're not part of the shambles that masquerades as DOCS in NSW.

93 Navara I'm not suggesting we should leave kids at home, rather we should be sure there are just reasons for removing them AND we can offer them better care than they were receiving at home.

Al, I'm not with DoCS, but have worked for them in the past. Brian's reference to the Sisters of Mercy at Waitara reminded me that early in my career I used to visit what were known as lying in homes (for unmarried mums) to make sure (?) the arranagements he described were not being set up.

Fortunately adoption has changed a lot over the years for the better, (although there are still many questions hanging over inter-country adoptions).

But to return to Aboriginal kids, while Aboriginal people constitute 2% of our population, 25% of kids in are are Indigenous. I'm not sure what the solution is, or even if there is one that all will agree on.

BruceV

Bruce,

"I'm not sure what the solution is, or even if there is one that all will agree on"

I don't think there is any "one" solution but I am absolutely certain you will never get everyone to agree with any solution. The kids will always suffer one way or another.

gramps..nothing with with docs....if they took the blinkers and hearing muffs off and got some one in there to run the show like humans would

MN1,

Undoubtedly there are many "humans" working at DOCS. The only problem is they have no power or authority in the organization.

Disco

Don't worry the Labor party is saying it because we believe in it and have for a long time.

Richard

Richard,

I'm sure that there are others of all political persuasion who also feel the need to say "Sorry" for all the right reasons. (I too feel sorry for those who were taken)

BUT if those who have been clamoring for us to say "Sorry" to THEM are not satisfied with what our "Apology/Sorry' offer contains,..........................
WHAT HAPPENS NEXT.

It doesnt matter, the first step has been taken, for all the right reasons, and any good can come from that, (I Hope) XXX...

"only good can come from that"

Dam this red wine,

It's a pity the French did not clam Australia I just love the way French women speak.. :-)

Great response Kumanara (NT) Echos my sentiments to a tee.
I have special and fond memories of growing up as a young boy amongst the true outback aboriginals on a very remote NT cattle station in the early fifties. The white station staff lived in the homestead, and the aboriginal community attached to that station still lived in their traditional camps, away from the homestead. We all lived and worked in harmony, and both cultures were respected and understood, and everyone was happy. The Aboriginals were the backbone of the station staff. Many things have influenced the development of these people since then.
No one is disputing that there aren't massive social problems within some aboriginal communities of today, but are they any different to those within many city communities?
There is no quick fix unfortunately, and that's very sad.

"""the atrocious conditions reported regularly from Aboriginal communities will be a thing of the past"""

Can I suggest you go to Broome for look at what the locals (nice Aboriginal and even Anglo-Saxon) have to put up with there..........it's fast becoming a sh1thole !!

Then go to Alice Springs, go look at the dozens if not hundreds of homes purpose built for the local aboriginal population. They have just torn up the timber floors and used them to make a camp fire in the back yard, with the tin sheeting from the roof as the humpy roof to keep off the rain.

Then if you have time go to any of the 'closed' settlements up north, look at the living conditions, ask yourself if you could live like that !!!
I suggest you could not, these people do have a choice, they can live in a clean home, with carpet and curtains, they choose not to, it's their choice.
We are attempting to 'coerce' or 'force' these people to live as we want to live our selves, it won't work, just as it won't work for you living in the exact same conditions they actually CHOOSE to live in.

These settlements are run by the local people, for the local people, with limited access to 'Anglo-Saxon' do gooders.
I had a gf who is an assistant manager at one such settlement, it's fenced off, (supposedly) alcohol free and the conditions are (by your and even my standard) atrocious at least, I could not live under those conditions, REMEMBER these homes were recently brand NEW, now they are almost demolished.

Is it your fault or mine? no, it's their choice just as it's your choice to live in the home you live in.

Mainey . . .

Thank you Mike. A well thought out reply.

Mike,

Like you I have alternated my views on this subject, and like you I am coming down on the side of the 'apologists'. There seem to be three major arguments against an apology and they have all reared their head in this thread.

Firstly, why should we apologise when the intention behind actions to remove children from their families/communities/culture was well meant? It is too easy to hide behind this umbrella, well meant but misdirected actions do not lessen the hurt or damage caused, you can't just say that because someone or a group of people believed in something that it makes it OK. Hitler had absolute belief in his policies of racial cleansing, but you hear very few voices suggesting that reparations should not be made or that war criminals should not be brought to account because they believed they were doing the right thing by humanity. I am not suggesting the scale of these two examples in any way bears comparison, but removal of Aboriginal children from their families and Jewish genocide were both carried out by groups who believed that what they were doing was right.

Secondly, the argument that an apology opens a litigation floodgate. Maybe, but perhaps (as some in this thread have suggested) a heartfelt apolgy is a first step to healing the bonds between fellow countrymen that might lead to a longer term solution (maybe even with the wider Aboriginal community). If that process cost billions of dollars, then so be it. I would like people to honestly tell me where we would rather spend our money as a higher priority than in assisting a group of disenfranchised fellow Australians. Foreign aid perhaps? More military spending? Arts grants?

The third argument is, I believe, a fundamental one. I wasn't involved so why should I be held to account? Whether we like it or not, treatment of the stolen generation forms part of our collective conscience and part of what makes us a nation. For better or for worse. Many people who would use this argument are the same ones who will take great pride in the events and attitudes that have shaped the character of our nation. How many of you feel a sense of pride and identity stemming from, say, the ANZAC spirit and tradition. Well guess what? You weren't there so you are not entitled to share in that spirit, if you believe that past actions and events are not your responsibility. I don't believe that we have the right (arrogance even) to pick and choose what we as a nation consider to be our heritage, we take it all, the good and the tragic, and we recognise that it part of our collective conscience to celebrate and to reconcile where needed.

Reconciliation is, I believe, sorely needed here.

Matt

Matt, I really like what you've written about the third argument; your logic is hard to refute. 'The sins of the father should not be visited upon the child' is one of the main reasons given for not saying sorry, yet, as you have pointed out, people don't seem to mind 'the glory of the father being visited upon the child'.

I'm pretty sure that when 'we' beat the Indians in cricket recently, I didn't take any wickets or score any runs, but 'we' beat them. 'We' hosted the Olympics, 'we' developed micro-surgery etc. It is not a case of semantics; it is about our national identity. It is this 'we' that took aboriginal children away from their families.

Regards,

Brian

I support Barnsey. Thank you Mike for an interesting post and I agree with your analysis, especially your comments showing that the "stolen generation" policies weren't just directed to aboriginals, they were the state of thinking of well meaning whites to welfare in general at the time. Even so, there is quite a lot of evidence that shows that during the 20's and 30's, many Australians expected aboriginal culture to simply fade away and saw removal of children as a way of protecting them. It is also true that many current aboriginal leaders gained their education and skills as a result of being "taken away." Never the less, the policy destroyed families, culture and self esteem.
Aboriginal Australia has not faded away and if we are to tackle the current problems the apology is a necessary start to the building process.. One of the great difficulties of working on indigenous issues is that our culture needs a 'peak body" to negotiate with. We want one organization, one voice that can represent all aboriginal people and then our leaders can negotiate the deal with their leaders. Unfortunately, aboriginal society just isn't like this. There is no one indigenous voice or perspective. It is going to be a long difficult journey, but the "apology" is seen as an indication of goodwill on behalf of official Australia and a necessary step if we are going to make progress on the issue. It is just a symbol, but symbols are also important.
And no, I am not in favour of the "apology" being used for damages claims and really can't see why it should be a justification.

Oh and SORRY...I forgot something,
when blackfellas say sorry, it isnt used in quite the same text as mainstream society...its more like mourning and showing your loss....
Again .....SORRY!!!!

Lionel,
I think I suggested about a week ago That this subject would degenerate in to some nasty stuff and racial sterotypying, ala Axel and BANJO stuff) and we haven't even got to the release of the statement on the 13th.
Next bet:-----that some of the above posters will want to have another go next week.

Hi wigger,
Yes you are right to a certain degree. There have been some replies and comments that lean towards "racial sterotyping" however, an equal number of replies have been balanced and well constructed arguments as to why an apology should be given.

Personally my experiences with indigenous people, to a large degree, have not been pleasant or positive. This in turn has forged a feeling towards them that some would consider well right of center. Others would have experienced the opposite. But! and a big BUT...To be forcebly removed from ones family, friends, home and culture....no matter what the intention....would leave me a very bitter man.

Having said this I dont think any replies Ive read I would consider racist, nor any I would consider bleeding heart softcocks.

Credit to a mature forum .......... Lionel.

Stevie,
This is the dumbest post I've seen for a long time.
Did you complete year 2 at school. If you did learn to read then there's still time for you to make up some of the massive lost ground in your wider education.

Good on you Steve for being honest. Cannot ask for more.

I do not like false people

AUSTRALIAN APOLOGY TO THE ABORIGINAL POPULATION

We apologise for giving you doctors and free medical care, which allows you to survive and multiply so that you can demand
apologies.

We apologise for helping you to read and teaching you the English language, thus opening up to you the entire European civilisation,
thought and enterprise.

We feel that we must apologise for building hundreds of homes for you, which you have vandalised and destroyed.

We apologise for giving you law and order which has helped prevent you from slaughtering one another and using the unfortunate for
food purposes.

We apologise for developing large farms and properties, which today feed you, where before, you had the benefits of living off the
land and starving during droughts.

We apologise for providing you with warm clothing made of fabric to replace the animal skins you used before.

We apologise for building roads and railway tracks between cities and building cars so that you no longer have to walk over harsh
terrain.

We apologise for paying off your vehicles when you fail to pay the instalments.

.

We apologise for giving you free travel anywhere, whenever.

We apologise for giving each and every member of your family $100.00 and free travel to attend an aboriginal funeral.

We apologise for not charging you rent on any lands when white people have to pay.

We apologise for giving you interest free loans.

We apologise for developing oil wells and minerals, including gold and diamonds which you never used and had no idea of their value.

We apologise for developing Ayers rock and Kakadu, and handing them over to you so that you get all the money.

We apologise for allowing taxpayers money to be paid towards a daughters' wedding ($8,000.00 each daughter).

We apologise for giving you $1.7 billion per year for your 250,000 people, which is $48,000.00 per aboriginal man, woman and child.

We apologise for working hard to pay taxes that finance your welfare, medical care, education, etc to the tune of $1.2 billion each
year.

We apologise for you having to approach the aboriginal affairs department to verify the above figures. For the trouble you will
have identifying the "uncle toms" in your own community who are getting richer and leaving some of you living in squalor and
poverty.

We do apologise. We really do.

We humbly beg your forgiveness for all the above sins.

We are only too happy to take back all the above and return you to the paradise of the "outback", whenever you are ready.

Turbopete a letter:
To the Australian government,
Thank you for invading our land, despite the fact we had lived here for over 50 000 years quite well and we were healthy.

Thanks for kicking us off of our land and leaving us with 2 choices, go inland into the desert or be killed.

We also appreciate the way you murdered our fathers and their fathers and then stole our children from us.

We didn't really want to be counted in the cencus or classed as human beings anyway so I didn't see the point of holding the 1967 referendum.

We are especially aware that it was still alright for a white person to murder one of us, as long as they had good reason.

We enjoy having a dysfunctional social structure but the wider Australian community is not at fault. We dissolve them of all responsibilty.

I urge the Australian government to give up on Aboriginal people as a lost cause. Save government money and effort and start another war in the middle east.

Yours sarcastically

Barnesy

Fair enough, it's an emotive issue.

However my question is guys... when your anger is said and spent... where do we go from here...?

Mike Harding

Mike
>>where do we go from here...?

I'm out in a remote area hospital looking after about 75% Aboriginal patients. Saying sorry in itself won't fix the problems I see everyday but it can begin to heal some wounds of people of both sides.

I think the majority of Australians feel genuine, heartfelt anguish over this issue and formally acknowledging this will help heal both sides.

Some of these 'angry' people posting poorly thought out replies should come and work with me for a week and see how blind they really are.

All of those who feel compassion should come and work with me too because we need the staff!

I'm with you Barnesy. I live and work in an indigenous community as a health professional and have spent most of my career working with indigenous people around Australia.
Unfortunately many in this thread seem to have developed a prejudice based on one or two half truths.
I urge everyone to learn more about indigenous history and culture and be truly informed of the issues. Go and work in an indigenous community. When your travelling through remote areas like Halls Creek, NT and North Queensland take some time and talk to these people. Ask them the questions you have. They are decent honest people that will you the truth rather than the rubbish that comes from politicians.

C'mon Truckster and Turbopete I dare you!

It seems that most who put in a little bit of mental thought into this post come out in favour of apologising. Those who have a chip on their shoulders will always find some reason (no matter how correct, pathetic or minute) to maintain the status quo.

Hey burnt clutch.

Do you live in Kunbarllanjnja??

Cheers Steve.

No Steve,
I'm about to leave the Tiwi Islands after 2 years.
Cheers

Just as an addendum to my post.
I just heard claimed on the news that Mr Dudd still has not been able to finalise the contents of his speech 3 days out from when it is supposed to be delivered.

If Dudd does not know what he will say how can anyone else??

Gees John it's going to be a long 8 - 10 years for you .. LOL

try this site you may learn something http://www.alp.org.au/index.php

:-)

Cheers

Richard

Sorry Richard, Search shows No sorry policy on that site.
So Richard tell me what Mr Dudd will actually be saying on Wednesday?

John: the posts to this thread have, very largely, been considered and spoken from the heart - on both sides - you are clearly simply trying to cause trouble and be divisive by driving your own personal political agenda - by doing so you attempt to degrade the value of the many posts and people who preceded you. Grow up and stop it.

Mike Harding

Please tell me what I have said that could in anyway be further decisive than what has already been said in this thread?
Posts to this thread have been from several different perspectives and regardless of what Dudd says on Wednesday 50 per cent of the country won't like it.

I have not expressed a view on the subject other than speculation on the use of the word "sorry" is wide and varied but no one as yet knows and if we can believe the media neither does the PM what will be said and what it may mean or if it will be accepted by the intended recipients.
Which I point out is in complete keeping with your subject topic
"What sort of "Sorry" are we?"
My comments are simple, YOU don't know what he will say and what sort of sorry it may be.

Its good to see your condescending attitude has not deserted you Mike and your continued attempts to denigrate posters on this forum really shows your self centered attitude to its fullest.
Its you that should grow up Mike your ways are well known on here.

John , I think you give yourself away when you start referring to
Kevin Rudd as 'dudd'. Mike harding might be right when he tells you to grow up.

wigger, You're obviously a new poster to this forum, keeping that in mind you obviously have no background knowledge of Mr Hardings ways, attitude to others or self centered intentions.

Mike's reply comes not from the heart but from his lack of self esteem which causes him to take every opportunity to put down anyone who expresses a point or opinion different to his.
The rule on here is that Mike is always right. (in his own mind that is)
And anyone who differs from him or makes a mistake in a post or reply will be in the sights for future attempted ridicule.

Rudd, Dudd, Mr Yes, Yes Man Rudd, Howard, Kevin, John, Johnny, Little Kevin, Little Johnny, Milky Bar Kidd, Mr Sheen or whatever takes your fancy is not an uncommon way for lots of Australians to display their affection or other towards our Prime Minister.
What a great country we live in that allows us to express our thoughts publicly in whatever fashion takes our fancy.
If you don't like it then tuff, I'm sure you will get over it.

John, your comments on Mike H. just don't stand up. He and I have crossed swords on this forum a few times and probably will again. Yes he puts his point of view forcefully, fair enough. Based on our previous exchanges, he thinks about and responds to opposing points of view and changes his viewpoint in the light of the arguments. Note his statement on how he has changed his position on this topic over the years. Your personal comments on Mike H are completely unwarranted.

mfewster we will just have to agree to disagree.
I like many others have watched Mike's attitude display for quite a number of years.
Just because you have not seen or experienced it does not mean it has not happened.

Cheers

As always... Noel Pearson is an exponent of sense - perhaps, one day, a future major leader in this country - I hope so.

Noel Pearson in The Australian newspaper

Mike Harding