Are Jap Diesels Behind the 8 Ball?

Submitted: Saturday, Feb 23, 2008 at 08:06
ThreadID: 54838 Views:2702 Replies:10 FollowUps:5
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HI everyone,

Just reading about the new Suzuki Grand Vitara diesel - first time in 30 years Suzuki has released a diesel powered one. But the interesting thing is its a 1.9 litre RENAULT turbo diesel (95kw and 300Nm at 2000rpm). I guess I was expecting them to use a Jap diesel. But when you compare some of the diesels the Japs seem to behind the Europeans with Diesel technology. A smaller diesel (4.1litre) than the new LC200 turbo, the Audi V8 turbo diesel used in their A8 sedan develops 240Kw and 650Nm (compared to the 4.5l LC200 engine's 195 kw and 650 Nm but its bigger at 4.5 litres. The new Touareg R50 5 litre turbo diesel (10 cylinder though) puts out 258 kw and 850 Nm at 2000 rpm.
I have been a lover or Jap 4x4's for years but nevertheless maybe they have a way to go to catch up to the Europeans (especially German ) diesel technology. Diesels are a way of life in Europe with over 60% of some models (cars) sold as diesels.
While the Japs are producing probably world class petrol engines it seems to me their diesel technology has yet to reach its full potential. I haven't compared fuel economy here but I think you'd find the Germans are ahead in that area as well.
I'm interested in comments by forumites - especially those with some knowledge of diesel technology.
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Reply By: Member - Olcoolone (S.A) - Saturday, Feb 23, 2008 at 08:45

Saturday, Feb 23, 2008 at 08:45
Europeans have been designing and building Hi Tech diesels alot longer then the Japs.

You have to understand the Jap way of thinking and there philosophy, it is the same when you do business with them.

All you have to do is look at there truck engines upto a couple of years ago......19 Lt. and only 370 HP and 1300 foot pounds of torque, the yanks and the Europeans 450HP+ and 1600 foot pound out of a 11 Lt.

Regards Richard

AnswerID: 288939

Reply By: Member - Kiwi B - Saturday, Feb 23, 2008 at 09:02

Saturday, Feb 23, 2008 at 09:02

Round about 2000 Nissan stopped using their own RD28Ti in GU Patrol. This had been used for a long time and started out as the LD28 but not sure when.

They then hopped into bed with guess who and started using their 3ltr 4cyl diesel.
Yip, 'twas Renault.

It would appear that technology is heading down the track of "why use 4 cylinders when 8 or 10 will do" Mebe it's got sumpin to do with noise and vibes and pollution, driven by the greens sorta??

Just my thoughts
AnswerID: 288941

Reply By: Member - Phil G (SA) - Saturday, Feb 23, 2008 at 09:50

Saturday, Feb 23, 2008 at 09:50
Thanks for pointing that out - I'll know not to buy one :-))

4wds are not sports cars.
The Toyota V8 produces max torque at 1200rpm - like a real 4wd should.

Even old technology like mine gets max torque at 1400 rpm
AnswerID: 288949

Follow Up By: Geepeem - Saturday, Feb 23, 2008 at 10:01

Saturday, Feb 23, 2008 at 10:01
Hi Phil,
Thanks for the comments.
But in terms of the new models there is no difference.
The LC200 turbo diesel produces max torque of 650Nm at 2600rpm.
The Audi A8 diesel sedan produces max torque of 650 Nm starting at 1600 rpm!!!
The R50 max torque at 2000 rpm.
Thus all less rpm than the LC200.
But I know where you are coming from - in the older models the low down grunt at low revs (1200) is right on the money in my opinion,
FollowupID: 554269

Follow Up By: Member - Phil G (SA) - Saturday, Feb 23, 2008 at 11:21

Saturday, Feb 23, 2008 at 11:21
You've misread the numbers.
V8 TD in the 70series gets 430Nm at 1200-3200rpm.
V8 TD in the 200series gets 650Nm at 1600-2600rpm
FollowupID: 554282

Reply By: Member - Doug T (FNQ) - Saturday, Feb 23, 2008 at 13:40

Saturday, Feb 23, 2008 at 13:40
Ya'all torque to much...Twanggggg

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AnswerID: 288977

Reply By: Steve - Saturday, Feb 23, 2008 at 15:01

Saturday, Feb 23, 2008 at 15:01
when I used to be a frequent mover around Europe in the 70s diesels were very popular in Germany, particularly, back then. This was before all the high tech stuff and now they've advanced further stil.

Land Rover have always been streets ahead of the Japs in everything but reliability *

*ooh, controversial statement - standby........
AnswerID: 288986

Follow Up By: lifeisgood - Saturday, Feb 23, 2008 at 22:01

Saturday, Feb 23, 2008 at 22:01
Lets not forget build quality either but yes LR Rangie was ahead on innovation and probably still is in Discovery format.
FollowupID: 554356

Follow Up By: Steve - Saturday, Feb 23, 2008 at 22:22

Saturday, Feb 23, 2008 at 22:22
build quality ? - you probably have a point there mate. It hasn't always been the best but Defenders were riveted and built so you could do panel repairs in the field - pretty handy in darkest Africa but not built for refinement - but when I had my Disco and used to go on Stockton Beach with my mate and his Prado I couldn't believe the paper thin/lightweight doors and therefore all over lack of quality/substance in the body panels. Still, it has to be said that their reliability is absolute tops and those fuel consumption stats in the post below look even more impressive than LR's. Dpends what you're comparing with. They all have their strengths and weakness
FollowupID: 554366

Reply By: _gmd_pps - Saturday, Feb 23, 2008 at 15:20

Saturday, Feb 23, 2008 at 15:20
Japanese cars were NEVER at the leading edge of technology.
They are low price alternatives for people who want to settle for second best. Always was always will be.. look at the new 200 series with its tiny wheel wells and low clearance ... a nice kindergarden car .. the ML280/350 is in the same price range and way ahead also in fuel consumption especially the D. Why do you think jap petrol engines are world class ??? Toyota is well known for its thirsty engines. V8 petrol eats easy 17/100 in city driving. Thats pathetic.
Petrol 4800 needs 25l/100 towing a double horsefloat ... pathetic
(don't tell me different we own(ed) both.) My Durmax Diesel needs 22l/100 fully loaded with a 1.8T slide-on camper and a 2.5t boat in the back going 110 uphill ... and the Americans are not the greatest diesel builders as well all know. I really wonder where you all get the impression that Japanese cars are great ...

have fun
AnswerID: 288990

Reply By: Fazz - Saturday, Feb 23, 2008 at 20:11

Saturday, Feb 23, 2008 at 20:11
I reckon the Japs have turned the corner, as I now drive a D4D Toyota Prado which returns at best 8,5 lts/100 ks and worst when towing was 12lts/100ks & that was with a head wind.

(Here is a little flak) I am not sure about the comments of the Discovery as they can,t make up their mind as to which engine (or country of origin) to use.
I have also heard of some very expensive repair bills re timing case problems on some earlier Italian engines?

AnswerID: 289025

Reply By: PajeroTD - Sunday, Feb 24, 2008 at 06:10

Sunday, Feb 24, 2008 at 06:10
I guess the proof is in the pudding when Nissan will be sourcing their next 3.0L V6 diesel from Renault (or at least sourcing the technology) with 195kw and 550Nm for the Maxima, Murrano, and I would suggest Pathfinder and Navara also.

Mazda engines would use Euro technology also with their ties to Ford / PAG Europe, and I would suggest the Mazda 6 and CX7 will share a diesel (2.2L with 130kw/400Nm) with the Land Rover Freelander, Ford Mondeo and the CX9 using the 3.0L V6 from the next Land Rover Discovery and Jaguar. (upgraded from 2.7)

Ford will use this Euro technology from Land Rover in the 3.0L V6 diesel, which I am sure will be used in the Falcon and Territory, and US models, the 4.4L V8 based on the LR 3.6 will be used on the F150, F250, Expedition, Navigator and their will be an even larger engine, a 6.7L V8 based on the same technology for F250, F350 and F450 (to replace the International Navistar Powerstroke diesel) (and it all started from the LR 2.7 TDV6)

GM purchased VM Motori, so they have the Euro diesel technology in their hands now for their upcoming 2.9L V6 and 4.5L V8 Duramax. I would expect a replacement for their 6.6L in the near future too.

Rudolf Diesel was European not Japanese...

So we have a lot to be thankful for from the Europeans, in relation to diesel engines.
AnswerID: 289057

Follow Up By: F4Phantom - Sunday, Feb 24, 2008 at 14:44

Sunday, Feb 24, 2008 at 14:44
I have to agree with the genral sentiment of this thread, the europeans are the real innovators here, porsche were the first to make cams which could change for the rpms then we got honda vtech which was the earliest jap company to do it, now a decade later toyota have vvt and mivec and all that. Euro invented common rail, turbo charging etc.. Japs immitate and make good inventions reliable, cheap and in some cases the copy is better than the original. But they always lack real design flair, watershed change and anything of any real interest. Toyota are the worst offenders, especially for style (I think the designers use random pen lines to make body panels). The LC does not even know what it really is any more, the RR is now similar (bottom range RR is close to price of the top range LC) priced and still has the perfect original focus.

Anyway european countries are the place to watch if you want anything remotley interesing and they are now up to common rail mark 5 I think.
FollowupID: 554443

Reply By: Member - Davidp P (VIC) - Monday, Feb 25, 2008 at 22:43

Monday, Feb 25, 2008 at 22:43
just remember the euros build their engines for super low sulfer fuel . it seems to me it could be risky fueling yr euro from drums on the CSR
AnswerID: 289391

Reply By: Scrub bull - Thursday, Feb 28, 2008 at 17:05

Thursday, Feb 28, 2008 at 17:05
I'll buy you a beer when your Renault derived Diesel gets to 600 000KMS OK.
AnswerID: 289847

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