4 WDriving, manual or Automatic

Submitted: Wednesday, Mar 05, 2008 at 11:46
ThreadID: 55196 Views:6706 Replies:8 FollowUps:17
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I am thinking of purchasing a 4wd and was wondering what the pros and cons of manual vs Auto transmission are?

I will be using it to tow a 1500kg boat/trailer and a bit of sand work and some easy/medium level tracks.

I've always preferred manual for engine control and economy but some people say auto is better for towing.

What do you think?
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Reply By: robak (QLD) - Wednesday, Mar 05, 2008 at 12:02

Wednesday, Mar 05, 2008 at 12:02
if you'regoing to be sand work then the automatic is the only way to go. The only time when a manual wins over the auto is for going down very steep, hard core hills.

I am guessing that most poeople who push for the manual have never owned an automatic 4wd..

R.
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Follow Up By: Member - Willie , Sydney. - Wednesday, Mar 05, 2008 at 12:38

Wednesday, Mar 05, 2008 at 12:38
Robak , as an auto 100TD man , I can second that .

Even very steep , hard core hills , there is ways to make autos better ie putting on the handbrake , so the car is just moving , so that you are using the front AND rear brakes 100 %. I picked up that clever tip at my clubs training day ( Triple Diamond 4WD Club ).

I have done a lot of off track and bad track work with mine in the company of manuals . Most of the time , the auto has been both superior and easier and more relaxing to drive .

Willie .
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Follow Up By: Gerhardp1 - Wednesday, Mar 05, 2008 at 20:32

Wednesday, Mar 05, 2008 at 20:32
I have a Jackaroo Petrol auto, engine braking is woeful.

On steep descents I always use the handbrake to compensate.
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Follow Up By: Steve from Top End Explorer Tours - Thursday, Mar 06, 2008 at 14:45

Thursday, Mar 06, 2008 at 14:45
Hey Robac.

If I was to say.

I am guessing that most people who push for the automatic have never owned an manual 4wd..

Which one of us is right.

I will never buy a 4wd with auto, why because I know how to drive a 4wd a with a 5 speed.

Cheers Steve.
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Follow Up By: robak (QLD) - Thursday, Mar 06, 2008 at 15:10

Thursday, Mar 06, 2008 at 15:10
Steve

No need to be offended. I have simply stated what I consider to be a reasonable guess. You have outlined areason why that may be true.



R.
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Follow Up By: Gerhardp1 - Thursday, Mar 06, 2008 at 15:13

Thursday, Mar 06, 2008 at 15:13
Hi Steve,

"Which one of us is right"

What is "right", and why is it so important to you to be "right"?

Sometimes we all get so opinionated, we forget that it's important what is valid for a person, not what is right for someone else.

For me, the auto is valid, and despite your assertion to the contrary, automatics are NOT for those who do not know how to drive a 5 speed 4wd properly like you can.

No point trying to belittle those who choose auto just because you don't, because you aren't "right", you are merely valid for yourself.
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Follow Up By: Member - Willie , Sydney. - Thursday, Mar 06, 2008 at 17:59

Thursday, Mar 06, 2008 at 17:59
Steve ,
Steve ,

I have owned the following 4WDs in manual :
Landrover
Nissan
60 Series

I have had a CAMS licence and club raced my turbo BMW .

Maybe next time I am in Darwin I could twist your arm to take me out and show me how to change gears .

Willie . Auto LC 100TD




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Follow Up By: Steve from Top End Explorer Tours - Thursday, Mar 06, 2008 at 18:28

Thursday, Mar 06, 2008 at 18:28
Hey guys I was not trying to offend or be little any one, nor was I offended.

I just found the statement a bit pretentious so I thought I might point it out, Unfortunately I get myself into trouble sometimes with my sense of humour.

So have a nice afternoon, as I'm about to just opened a beer after a hard day.

Cheers Steve.
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Reply By: MrBitchi (QLD) - Wednesday, Mar 05, 2008 at 12:10

Wednesday, Mar 05, 2008 at 12:10
IMO a modern automatic is the way to go. An auto with "sports shift" gives the best of both worlds.
AnswerID: 290882

Reply By: Member - Phil G (SA) - Wednesday, Mar 05, 2008 at 12:16

Wednesday, Mar 05, 2008 at 12:16
The clutches on many 4wds are not as good as in the past. And many manual gearboxes aren't either. Most autos are very reliable.

For 4wding, you need a bit more skill to drive a manual, and the engine braking is great on a manual.
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Reply By: Kumunara (NT) - Wednesday, Mar 05, 2008 at 13:08

Wednesday, Mar 05, 2008 at 13:08
Fatboy66



Auto is far better for sand.

Auto has problems when towing in hot conditions. Local AANT bloke hates people towing large vans up here with auto transmissions



Tjilpi
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Follow Up By: Les B (Nth QLD) - Wednesday, Mar 05, 2008 at 13:54

Wednesday, Mar 05, 2008 at 13:54
Me too. Auto is great for sand and brilliant for steep climbs. Just back from the Vic High Country and those steep descents in low 1st only required light brake pedal I might tend to go down a little slower though just to have some brakes in reserve if something goes wrong.
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Reply By: Robin Miller - Wednesday, Mar 05, 2008 at 13:52

Wednesday, Mar 05, 2008 at 13:52
Hi Fatboy66

One can't answer that question by itself , because of the range
of engines available now it can only be answered in context of what car make and model.

I have no doubt that the car I choose provides better performance in manual than in auto.

But even this be-cries the question "What does performance mean" to the purchaser.


Some examples re my Manual 4800 petrol Patrol.

1/ Fuel consumption
----------------
The auto wins if touring (17.2/17.7) and the manual wins everywhere else Why? because the final overall gearing ratio is 36:1 auto 44:1 manual

2/ Acceleration & Top Speed -> the manual is faster because of the 9% automatic transmission power loss but the auto wins the 0-100kmh traffic light drag because it changes gears faster.

3/ Normal Towing - Manual is stronger and has sufficent low down torque to enable smooth clutch operation.

4/ Towing in heavy stuff (sand) - Auto is better, not primarily because of low down torque muliply effect but because the sand provides traction to prevent uncontrolled wheelspin as its applied.
However the auto is reccomended to have an auxilary oil cooler for
longer distances in the sand.

5/ 4 wheel driving in general - the manual is more precise and
allows better control which from tests in this vehicle has meant
better wheel placment in tight spots. It also has a more defined and flatter effective torque curve which leads to less traction breaking torque spikes except when a gear change is needed.

6/Downhill While Manuals are always considered better here , one
often forgotten reason is that even this auto with a 2 stage lockup can override the lockup and upchange on you when the engine revs get to max set value and this can be a disaster.

7/ Uphill Auto generally wins here - espically if a gear change is required but on a really extreme and planned for hill the manual can win because it ultimately delivers more power to the ground.

7/ Slippery clay surfaces - Manual is better here as the auto can apply excessive uncontrolled torque and cause a wheel to break traction.

8/ Reliabilty - one less computer and a lot less sensors means manual wins this one.
Brake Pads on the auto have a much shorter life

9/ Roll Starting - Manual much easier provided you know how.
Robin Miller

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Follow Up By: Moose - Wednesday, Mar 05, 2008 at 14:16

Wednesday, Mar 05, 2008 at 14:16
G'day Robin
As per usual a considered, unbiased and well detailed reply. Very informative.
Cheers from the Moose

PS As I have never owned an auto, nor have I been 4WDing with anyone who has one, I will not comment on which is better.

PPS Robin - by "rolling start" I assume you mean a clutch start. If not please explain. And if that is what you mean, are you saying that an auto to can be "roll started"? If so, how?
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Follow Up By: Robin Miller - Wednesday, Mar 05, 2008 at 15:07

Wednesday, Mar 05, 2008 at 15:07
Hi Moose

No it can be very hard to start the auto by towing/rolling as it has
that fluid coupling to the engine although apparently some earlier ones would if you got em up to 60 or so.
If I had an auto like that I would have a manual lockup on it
(still must drive relays) such that it could be powered from a seperate low powered source - I have not tried this but I suspect this would allow it to be started with a decent roll.

I also reffered to knowing how to roll start (clutch start) a modern manual.

In my Patrol for instance the ECU requires a start signal to roll start - one way to deliver this is to engage starter motor for 1 sec as you dump the clutch on a roll start, this works well even with a flat battery.

Without this , no matter how steep the hill it will not start.
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Follow Up By: Member - Kiwi Kia - Wednesday, Mar 05, 2008 at 16:19

Wednesday, Mar 05, 2008 at 16:19
Quote .."4 wheel driving in general - the manual is more precise and allows better control which from tests in this vehicle has meant better wheel placment in tight spots."

I don't accept this at all. How can a manual allow a more precise wheel placement ?


Quote .."It also has a more defined and flatter effective torque curve which leads to less traction breaking torque spikes"

I don't accept this either. With an an auto you can accelerate far easier on loose sand then you can in a manual.
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Follow Up By: Robin Miller - Wednesday, Mar 05, 2008 at 18:13

Wednesday, Mar 05, 2008 at 18:13
Hi Kiwi

I was wondering if somebody would make me work for my supper over this post.

About the wheel placement, it goes like this , the manual has a fixed connection to the engine whereas the auto has a spongy one simply because of its fuild coupling.

The more you are into 4wding as opposed to touring the more the auto has to change up/down over a wider rev range and hence the percentage of slippage goes up.


Its a bit like the downhill engine braking thing, the auto's engine has a lesser and spongier (is there such a word)
connection to the wheels and simply does not haul up the cars monentum as quickly, so often one has to touch the brakes a little as wheel.
The effect of this is to slower the response time and hence the car tends to go a little wider etc around corners, and stop just that little bit later.

Thats the theory - for a practical test I drove two Patrols one immediately after the other thru the river flat section of Victoria's Bull town spur track.
Here the 22 river crossings, some with sharp entry exit points re-inforced the points above.

Its reasonable to ask "how big is this effect " and its not big and can be accomodated for but for me it was only a couple of hundred mm here and there which really just scrapped the bark off a couple of trees.


The second point of mine you did not like was in relation to a flatter torque curve not causing traction breaking torque spikes.

This point I thought would not be challenged as a wide flat torque curve is the ideal of a 4wd engine and its hard to argue that the auto's change of gear does not cause torque spikes, albiet mellow enough with modern boxes.

A manual gear change is worse however this is really where the manual shines as you have the choice to do this or not in cars with adequate engines.

When you say that the "Auto accelerates faster in loose sand" - Well I accept this and I think it supports my case
as its the extra drag of the sand that loads the engine and reduces the effect of the autos torque spikes that
actually allows this to occur without early breaking of traction.
Robin Miller

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Follow Up By: Member - Kiwi Kia - Wednesday, Mar 05, 2008 at 18:51

Wednesday, Mar 05, 2008 at 18:51
Hi again Robin, Ok, I think we are coming from different aspects of 4w driving here. I was demonstrating the advantages of an auto in very loose & fine gravel (not sand) on a beach just this afternoon in a 2.8TDi Pajero. My 'student' was an English person used to soft mud but had never been on this type of beach gravel before. Where a manual has a lot of difficulty starting off without digging in on this material an auto can be coaxed along at almost a snails pace till it builds up momentum. a manual constantly digs in as it gets a gear change point. The exception is when you have a manual with a large engine and heaps of torque, this allows starting in a higher gear and not having to change so early before enough momentum has been built up.

Wheel placement. Sorry I have to disagree at very low speeds and this is what you need to be doing in very serious 4wding. It is very important to be able to crawl in some places as you climb up a rock step and then turn the steering to change direction when actually on the step (or boulder). Once again I am referring to slow speed wheel placement and you can do this far better in an auto then a manual. In a manual you have to keep moving or slip the clutch, in an auto you have complete control with the accelerator only.
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Follow Up By: Robin Miller - Wednesday, Mar 05, 2008 at 19:55

Wednesday, Mar 05, 2008 at 19:55
Hi Kiwi

Yep , I don't think we disagree very much and as you say its more about commenting on different aspects of the art.

I certainly feel that my choice of large wide torque band engine has minimized the manuals downsides and allowed its good points to shine.

Some points mean more to some people than others , so those who spend most of their 4wding time on beach are better with the auto.

Where I drive the slippery downhill slide is the weakest link. Its consequentes can be severe , whereas the consequent of failure going up a hill where autos shine are simply that you have another go.


Robin Miller

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Follow Up By: Member - Kiwi Kia - Wednesday, Mar 05, 2008 at 20:21

Wednesday, Mar 05, 2008 at 20:21
Yep, we don't really have any dissagreements :-)) You may be interested in the following; A week ago I would have said that with an auto you learn the art of 'left foot' or 'drive over' braking and then you don't need to worry about the slight over speed when going down a steep hill. Just start slow, stay slow and you will stay in control. However, last week I burst a flexible brake line, the one from the the rear body down to the back axle. This was at the bottom of a very long (about 1 km) and very steep
(we NEVER drive up it) ridge line. I took an extra Lotto ticket this week ! Brake lines do fail occasionally so I would definitely prefer a manual on steep descents.
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Follow Up By: MrBitchi (QLD) - Thursday, Mar 06, 2008 at 09:14

Thursday, Mar 06, 2008 at 09:14
"for a practical test I drove two Patrols one immediately after the other"

There's ya problem, mate ;-) Try the same thing in something with a decent auto box :-))

About the only point I'll agree with you on is downhill engine braking, although IMO the Paj does a pretty good job there too. I find that there's more difference between petrol and diesel than manual and auto.
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Follow Up By:- Thursday, Mar 06, 2008 at 13:54

Thursday, Mar 06, 2008 at 13:54
Obviously your definition of more serious 4wding as opposed to touring is different to mine and I find that I have much more precise control over vehicle placement with an auto. When you can position a tyre where you need it lug by lug, that is control in my book. Try doing it in a manual and see how long the clutch lasts. Manuals are fine but given the choice autos are my preference.
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Reply By: Stephen M (NSW) - Wednesday, Mar 05, 2008 at 18:36

Wednesday, Mar 05, 2008 at 18:36
I had the manual in the old lux 2.8. While underpowered I found it to hold extremely well in low range when down in high country on what seemed to me extremely steep tracks, I did notice a few of the autos up front with there brakes on alot more. On the sand to me auto is the way. I found with the hilux you had to be extremely quick with gear changes to stop it from bogging down and losing momentum while in the prado (auto) you just plant the foot and go. I havnt had it on any thing as steep yet as we did in the high country but have a trip coming up so will see. I believe (from what I have read on here) you can fit a switch to the lock up torque convertor to make it hold better ?? Just what I have read. Regards Steve M
AnswerID: 290959

Reply By: Jim from Best Off Road - Wednesday, Mar 05, 2008 at 21:07

Wednesday, Mar 05, 2008 at 21:07
For 95% of 4wding an auto is far better.

Having owned 4 4wd's, 3 were manual and 1 was auto.

My current one is a manual because I spend 90% of my time on road and prefer manual vehicles. Accordingly I live with the deficiencies of the manual off road (other than down hill engine braking).

Your choice should be balanced around where you do most of your driving and how much importance you place on it.

Jim.



AnswerID: 290995

Reply By: Axel [ the real one ] - Thursday, Mar 06, 2008 at 14:34

Thursday, Mar 06, 2008 at 14:34
If its also going to be your or your beloveds daily driver and you live anywhere that has a myriad of traffic lights go the auto , so much easier when doing the daily grind ,,,
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