79 Series steering shudder

Submitted: Monday, Apr 07, 2008 at 14:11
ThreadID: 56398 Views:7282 Replies:11 FollowUps:19
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Hi All,
I have a 79 series Landcruiser with a steering shudder that occurs at 80 - 100km/h and mainly in sweeping left hand turns. It has been to Toyota a couple of times. Wheels have been balanced, wheel alignment done and steering damper replaced. The steering damper has decreased the severity and frequency of the shudder but it is still there. Anyone got any ideas what else this could be?

Steve
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Reply By: Gone Bush (WA) - Monday, Apr 07, 2008 at 14:24

Monday, Apr 07, 2008 at 14:24
Steve,

I have the current 79 TDV8 trayback. Nothing like that occurs with mine at all.

Sounds like a one-off.

Wish I could have been more helpful.

cheers

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AnswerID: 297174

Follow Up By: Steve63 - Monday, Apr 07, 2008 at 14:27

Monday, Apr 07, 2008 at 14:27
This is a 2006 4.2 TD we are talking about.

Steve
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Reply By: Member - David P (VIC) - Monday, Apr 07, 2008 at 14:24

Monday, Apr 07, 2008 at 14:24
tell us about the tyres, new? old? pressures?brand/pattern?wear pattern?.....silverback
AnswerID: 297175

Follow Up By: Steve63 - Monday, Apr 07, 2008 at 14:31

Monday, Apr 07, 2008 at 14:31
Has splits with Desert Duellers that have done 40,000km. There is some chipping. Most of the usage was on dirt roads and tracks. Wear seems to be fairly even. The wheel aligner had a close loook at all four tyres and didn't comment about anything being out of the ordinary.

Steve
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Follow Up By: Member - Matt (Perth-WA) - Monday, Apr 07, 2008 at 14:37

Monday, Apr 07, 2008 at 14:37
Who was the aligner...Toyota or a 4WD specialist?

Have you swapped the tyress from front to rear to see if the shudder changes?

That way you can start to eliminate tyre issues, but then again you can still have harmonic imbalances but they come and go despite everything.

Matt.
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Follow Up By: Steve63 - Monday, Apr 07, 2008 at 14:55

Monday, Apr 07, 2008 at 14:55
Wheel alignment was done by a 4wd and truck specialist. Toyota apparently did a front to rear swap when they balanced the tyres. They are usually reliable (I mark filters etc so I know they have been changed) so they are likely to have done as they said.

Intersting you say harmonic as that is what I thought off when it first turned up. It always starts small and gets more severe. Before the damper was changed it would get severe.

Steve
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Reply By: Member - Matt (Perth-WA) - Monday, Apr 07, 2008 at 14:35

Monday, Apr 07, 2008 at 14:35
You are missing some serious information....

what are the tyres?
what size?
what pressures?
have you changed the size or rim offset
have you swapped them from front to rear
has it been lifted
has it ever clipped a curb
how many km has it done and what type of driving

any of these little things can give youu a shudder and you have to look at the whole picture to diagnose steering shudders.

A bit more info and I might be able to help YOU eliminate some of the many possibilities.

Matt.
AnswerID: 297177

Follow Up By: Steve63 - Monday, Apr 07, 2008 at 14:49

Monday, Apr 07, 2008 at 14:49
7.50R16 Desert Dualers f36 r 42 unloaded. Have tryied other pressures. Have had same wheels and tyres on for last six months and this only started about 4-5 weeks ago. Toyota, balanced and rotated the wheels with no effect. The suspension is bog standard (except for the steering damper now). Has not clipped a curb that I can think off. Has done 55,000 ~ 35,000 on dirt and tracks.

Steve
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Follow Up By: Member - Matt (Perth-WA) - Monday, Apr 07, 2008 at 15:19

Monday, Apr 07, 2008 at 15:19
Ok that eliminates a few possibilities.....

with all the suspension stock the 4wd aligner should know the correct settings for the 79 on stock rim/tyre and no lift.

If balance is fine and the shudder doesnt change if the tyres are moved position then I would be looking at the vehicle.

The harmonic Ive seen in a few old 31 10R15 that basically the tyres balance up fine but small imperfections can get into harmonic and that shakes the car quite badly.

How bad are we talking...small shudder or is it quite severe? The aligner might be looking a the specs and while they are in tolerance....can still be at opposite ends of acceptable and together...can cause vibration and caster shakes.

Did you get a report from the aligner to see what the actual readings were... I mean a solid axle 79 can only adjust Toe...Steering Axis Inclination, Camber, Caster and Toe out on turns are all built into the axle? Apart from installing offset bushes in the control arms... a small shudder might have to be lived with!If it is severe and you have ensured its not the wheels and tyres...that would be my next step...find the specs, and decide if its WORTH going further!

Matt.


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Follow Up By: Steve63 - Monday, Apr 07, 2008 at 15:31

Monday, Apr 07, 2008 at 15:31
The shudder is much reduced with the new damper so I would say it is now minor. It bugs me it is still there and it always worries me it may be a symptom of something else bigger. I have the report at home I'll take a look tonight. I don't think the numbers were at the extemes.

I am going to replace the tyres before the next trip so if it is a harmonic issue it will hopefully disappear.
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Reply By: Member - Tour Boy Springsure- Monday, Apr 07, 2008 at 14:36

Monday, Apr 07, 2008 at 14:36
Mate My current model work hilux does the same thing. Only it has buckled wheels that cause it.
At least if one tyre starts to go flat it kicks like a mule so I know.

Dave
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Dave
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AnswerID: 297178

Follow Up By: Kev & Darkie - Monday, Apr 07, 2008 at 14:48

Monday, Apr 07, 2008 at 14:48
You will only get a ford or holden ute over here ;)
Russell Coight:
He was presented with a difficult decision: push on into the stretching deserts, or return home to his wife.

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Follow Up By: Member - Tour Boy Springsure- Monday, Apr 07, 2008 at 15:20

Monday, Apr 07, 2008 at 15:20
Do they come with buckled wheels too.... or will I have to do that myself LOL
Cheers,
Dave
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Follow Up By: Kev & Darkie - Monday, Apr 07, 2008 at 16:49

Monday, Apr 07, 2008 at 16:49
Not buckled just Bald ha ha ha
Russell Coight:
He was presented with a difficult decision: push on into the stretching deserts, or return home to his wife.

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Reply By: Member - David P (VIC) - Monday, Apr 07, 2008 at 15:04

Monday, Apr 07, 2008 at 15:04
does it do it at all tyre temps as opposed to cold flat spots going into and out of sync?.....silverback
AnswerID: 297180

Follow Up By: Steve63 - Monday, Apr 07, 2008 at 15:12

Monday, Apr 07, 2008 at 15:12
Usually notice when the tyres are warm. For example noticed on the weekend after driving for over an hour. It has always been worse when things heat up ie oil in steering damper.
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Follow Up By: Member - David P (VIC) - Monday, Apr 07, 2008 at 15:49

Monday, Apr 07, 2008 at 15:49
I have more chance of understanding women your problem is far to complex. How long has it been like this?...silverback
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Follow Up By: Steve63 - Monday, Apr 07, 2008 at 16:52

Monday, Apr 07, 2008 at 16:52
Has only been noticable for 4 -5 weeks (two months max). If you work out women you should write a book about it. Best seller over night I would think!
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Reply By: Member - David P (VIC) - Monday, Apr 07, 2008 at 15:23

Monday, Apr 07, 2008 at 15:23
how old are they, rubber in tyres is a compound and I sometimes wonder if they simply age at different rates within the carcase. i once put brand new tyres on new rims on a Nissan Pintara and the tyre dealer simply could not ballance out or explain why the new setup could not be fixed. There are just so many variables..geometry..bearings..linkages..rubber compounds/structures..treatment..pressures..wear..and on and on. Split rims, I know nothing about...do they get to be taken apart, are they put back together only the same way?....silverback
AnswerID: 297184

Follow Up By: Steve63 - Monday, Apr 07, 2008 at 15:33

Monday, Apr 07, 2008 at 15:33
Tyres are 2 years old. The rim is usually marked so the split is put back near its original position.
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Reply By: Steve63 - Monday, Apr 07, 2008 at 15:37

Monday, Apr 07, 2008 at 15:37
Thanks all for the suggestions. Will see if new rubber helps. I'll post an update if I can get it sorted out.

Steve
AnswerID: 297188

Reply By: Member - DOZER- Monday, Apr 07, 2008 at 16:55

Monday, Apr 07, 2008 at 16:55
Stevo
The problem is in the tyres, try swapping left to right at the front, also jack up each front and spin it looking for out of round....some tyres suffer from seperation of tread to carcus, if this hapens, you will get uneven wear in one place.
Andrew
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Follow Up By: Steve63 - Monday, Apr 07, 2008 at 16:58

Monday, Apr 07, 2008 at 16:58
Thanks Andrew I'll try that. They have had a fairly hard life so anything is possible.

Steve
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Reply By: Member - Phil G (SA) - Monday, Apr 07, 2008 at 23:01

Monday, Apr 07, 2008 at 23:01
Split rims on the 40's and 60's Cruisers used to commonly wobble, and the tyres were not always round. Don't hear about it much on the later Cruisers. I'd rotate some tyres to see if it still happens. Might be an opportunity to move to tubeless unless you are emotionally attached to the splits :-)
AnswerID: 297307

Follow Up By: Member - Phil G (SA) - Monday, Apr 07, 2008 at 23:02

Monday, Apr 07, 2008 at 23:02
And while the wheels are jacked up, check for any play in the wheel bearings.
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Follow Up By: Steve63 - Tuesday, Apr 08, 2008 at 09:56

Tuesday, Apr 08, 2008 at 09:56
I'm getting the wheel bearings done at the service next week.
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Reply By: Member - Hughesy (NSW) - Monday, Apr 07, 2008 at 23:11

Monday, Apr 07, 2008 at 23:11
Hi Steve,

I'm gathering you've checked for the loose nut behind the wheel ;)))) (Sorry mate had to be said)

If its not that try the other suggestions.
AnswerID: 297308

Follow Up By: Steve63 - Tuesday, Apr 08, 2008 at 09:53

Tuesday, Apr 08, 2008 at 09:53
Yes that did occur to me :-)
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Reply By: Robnicko - Tuesday, Apr 08, 2008 at 13:29

Tuesday, Apr 08, 2008 at 13:29
Steve,
I had a very similar shudder with my 80 series and I had the wheels balanced and ran it with one tailshaft at a time but the problem still happened. In the end it was the front left wheel bearing that was loose. However when I lifted the wheel of the ground it felt correct with no play. But when I took the drive flange off (the thingo with the 6 cone washere) there was play in the bearing. I adjusted it up and the shudder(shook the whole car) dissapeared totally.
I now, after re-greasing the bearings make a point of taking the car for a short drive, then jacking it up and removing the drive flanges onm the front + axles on the rear and re-checking the bearings for play. It is the onlly way to make sure I beleive.


hope it helps


Rob
AnswerID: 297373

Follow Up By: Steve63 - Tuesday, Apr 08, 2008 at 14:27

Tuesday, Apr 08, 2008 at 14:27
Well bearings are due so will have a look. Thanks for the tip.

Steve
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