Nissan GU 2.8 & 3.0 TD clutches

Submitted: Sunday, Jul 06, 2003 at 12:41
ThreadID: 5838 Views:2746 Replies:6 FollowUps:7
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Hi there,
My thanks to Johnad and TRUCKSTAR (VIC) for bringing up the excessive cost for the flywheel & reliability etc for the GU Nissans.
If anyone can help I have 2 Questions.
1)
Is the dual mass as stated by Johnad a metalic lamination or a layer of the base metal that has been hardened....Has anyone tried to find out?
2)
What is the hardness factor of the wear area on the Nissan F/Wheels,(Brinnell, Vickers etc)
In most industrial applications high wear areas such as clutch surfaces are hardened:
This can be a lamination by weld process during manufacture of the original part or now with modern technology methods to apply local hardening. There are many metal reclamation shops around who can restore surfaces to dimension, hardness, strength & high speed balance on completion.
I spent 25 years re-building heavy machinery as a Rotating Equipment Engineer with re-clamation processes as we kept away from OEM's as all they wanted to do is make heaps of $$$ as TRUCKSTAR(VIC) mentioned.
Appreciate any comments as I think there is scope and potential to save a few bucks when I am faced with that problem as I pull a 21ft Van with the 2.8 and have a "Rapid" 30% turbo Booster Fitted. (Exhaust temperature limited)
(Goes Like a Rocket...look out 3.0 LTR boys)...I do drive very conservatively though & we get an excellent fuel consumption)
Regards
Donald
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Reply By: Johnad - Sunday, Jul 06, 2003 at 18:18

Sunday, Jul 06, 2003 at 18:18
Don, I cant answer your questions, buit you do raise an interesting point. I would like to see this developed before I have to replace my flywheel. The dealer told me not to tow my van in 5th gear as this can reduce clutch life.

Im also interested in your rapid booster. Where did you get this fitted and is it really good for a 30% increase in performance?

Cheers

John
AnswerID: 24333

Follow Up By: Donald - Sunday, Jul 06, 2003 at 19:57

Sunday, Jul 06, 2003 at 19:57
With regards to the Rapid Module:
It is a European device installed by "TURBO-GLIDE" of 609 Princess Hwy Russell Vale (Wollongong) ring 02 42847881 see website http://www.turboglide.com.au/turbochargers/rapid.htm
There is a lot of info there & testimonials etc. They gave me a print-out of the DYNO tests & calibration of the temperature limits and on paper shows just above 30%. The GU is out of manufacturer's warranty so the modification was my choice.
We picked up a "Show Special" from the caravan & camping show last year & it cost us $1200 plus GST. I don't know what it cost now.
Without towing the van me & the missus casually drove all the way up the big hill from Wollongong (not Buli pass) at 80Km in 5th gear, heaps of low down torque below 2000 RPM. I also pulled our Van up the same hill in 3rd. (21 1/2 ft full height dual axle Roadstar) Driving over the Blue Mountains is a pain in the butt as you get a lot of stop/starts with domestic traffic. On the open road & freeways it tows at a breeze in 5th.
Off Road we use a Camper Trailer where I had to go Low Low for powerin the past down at Duea National Park... it easily does this in second gear now.
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FollowupID: 16372

Reply By: ramp - Sunday, Jul 06, 2003 at 18:44

Sunday, Jul 06, 2003 at 18:44
donald interested to hear more about the rapid turbo boost as i have the 2.8 and am thinking of the unichip or the rapid as well as exhaust upgrade, do you really notice the extra torque in the lower gears cheers ramp
AnswerID: 24339

Follow Up By: Donald - Sunday, Jul 06, 2003 at 19:59

Sunday, Jul 06, 2003 at 19:59
Ramp,
Please see my reply to John,

It answers your question about the Torque .
cheers
Donald
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FollowupID: 16373

Reply By: Martyn (WA) - Sunday, Jul 06, 2003 at 20:05

Sunday, Jul 06, 2003 at 20:05
Donald,
I'm in a similar role to yourself and have some reservations about this hardened layer you talk about. I don't know what grade of steel the flywheel is but as far as I'm aware they don't have a hardened layer be it case hardened or a dissimilar metal, I don't think you would want a hardened layer, the co-efficient of friction would be lower so you would just generate more heat, something you don't want. I imagine the metal would be quite "soft", relatively speaking, making the metal more 'grippy' if you know what I mean. This would also apply to brake drums and discs and they definately don't harden them, they skim the discs to brake the hardened glaze so the brakes work better.
I don't know what the hardness of a standard flywheel is, it's a question I've never seen before. I know there is a lot more going into the metallury of brake and clutch componets due to the change from asbestos to other friction materials, some of which vary considerably with their coefficient of friction. This is why I personally buy brake pads and clutch plates from the OEM, I would like to think that they have the customer in mind, sometimes I do wonder.....
If you were considering this hardened layer you would have to go for a HVOF coating rather than the standard powder metal spray coating. Hope some of this helps Keep the shiny side up
AnswerID: 24348

Follow Up By: Martyn (WA) - Sunday, Jul 06, 2003 at 20:39

Sunday, Jul 06, 2003 at 20:39
Donald,
Johnad is talking about a dual mass flywheel which is fitted to the later Nissan's, I'm refering to my old GQ. This dual mass flywheel maybe something that Nissan are doing to improve reliability in modern Nissan's, from what I've read about the reliability of these crutches they may need to look a bit deeper into this. Bimetallic welding and dissimilar coatings is fraught with danger due to dissimilar expansion rates etc etc. I'll keep learning...... Keep the shiny side up
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FollowupID: 16377

Follow Up By: Donald - Sunday, Jul 06, 2003 at 20:54

Sunday, Jul 06, 2003 at 20:54
Martyn,
Thanks for your comments,
I personally don't like using lamination sprays including HVOF regardless of the technology by Eutectic & others on sliding surfaces such sleeve bearings, thrust discs, flywheel/clutch systems etc. As you would know there are "sheer forces" to be considered also and I have seen too many catastrophic failures. I prefer to machine back the damaged surface with a minimum of material removal to achieve a full cut. (Cylindrical grinding) and use modified parts to accommodate dimension or tolerance changes. I know the HVOF has been used on turbine rotors & high-speed blowers with success but on a truck clutch it would take a thumping. I have seen clutch systems that have a welded layer in the "wear" area & I was interested in the design.
I would love to get my hands on an old GU 2.8TD flywheel & get some metallurgy done.
Also a component drawing of the clutch & fly wheel. (exploded view and cross-section)
kind regards
Donald
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FollowupID: 16378

Follow Up By: Hugh - Monday, Jul 07, 2003 at 21:28

Monday, Jul 07, 2003 at 21:28
Hi Donald and Martyn,

Thanks for interesting thread. I have followed previous threads from you and enjoyed the dialogue. With the risk of opening pandora's box I may be in a position to assist. I am engineer working for a WA Automotive R&D company, whose past sins include base engine design and durability tetsing. While I can't remember flywheel specs, I certainly can find out and will post a reply when I pull some dwgs from archives.

Furthermore, I am currently working with a Japanese OEM who happens to make the vehicles in question. Just so happens that I have dealings with a Japanese engineer who was the Engineering Manager for the RD28T engine. Found this out a month ago when I took him to the hotel in my 2.8l GU Patrol. Now I can't promise anything, and I'm not going to bug him with oodles of questions, however when next we meet I'll ask him about the flywheel/ clutch design.

Regards,
Hugh
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FollowupID: 16424

Reply By: Donald - Monday, Jul 07, 2003 at 22:49

Monday, Jul 07, 2003 at 22:49
Thanks HUGH,
Greatfull if information & drawings become available.
I still would like to get my hands on an old one. Maybe the scrap bins at the back of the Nissan dealers may have one in it from time to time. It would be interesting to know what they do with them.
I might ask for 1 & tell them I want it to make a truck stand or a letter-box base or something. You never know your luck.
cheers for now.
Donald
AnswerID: 24434

Reply By: Martyn (WA) - Tuesday, Jul 08, 2003 at 20:34

Tuesday, Jul 08, 2003 at 20:34
Hugh,
Thanks for the input, great to hear from someone else in "the know" so to speak. Being the owner of an old but reliable GQ diesel I haven't got the same concerns about my crutch as people who own the newer more modern GU's, by the sounds of things, I do share the interest it's always handy to know and maybe pass things on in the future, and something to be aware of when buying a different fourby. I opted for the "heavy duty" crutch when I replaced mine which apparently has a 30% higher drive plate crush, seeing as this is very difficult to measure I have to believe what the man in the shop tells me, it looked stronger and certainly weighed a bit more, when I had the rotating bits balanced as part of the rebuild I was surprised as to how far out of balance the crutch pressure plate was, seems good now, this was a part of the rebuild I nearly ignored due to the ever mounting cost, I believe now it's paying off, the engine certainly feels smoother.
I have a servo assisted crutch so if it was 20, 30 or 50% heavier I don't think I would notice by pedal pressure, this to me would seem the more logical way to go rather than looking at a hardened overlay and introducing other elements into the equation, ah well, onward and forward, catch you all around. Keep the shiny side up
AnswerID: 24507

Follow Up By: Donald - Tuesday, Jul 08, 2003 at 22:46

Tuesday, Jul 08, 2003 at 22:46
Hey ther Hugh,
Check your spell checker mate, you have refered to your crutch not your clutch several times. Sounds painfull.
regards
Donald
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FollowupID: 16471

Reply By: Donald - Tuesday, Jul 08, 2003 at 22:49

Tuesday, Jul 08, 2003 at 22:49
My apologies to Hugh re spelling , I meant Martyn...I think I've had too many beers.
cheers
Donald
AnswerID: 24517

Follow Up By: Martyn (WA) - Wednesday, Jul 09, 2003 at 00:01

Wednesday, Jul 09, 2003 at 00:01
Donald,
Anything to do with my clutch was painful............lolKeep the shiny side up
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FollowupID: 16473

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