Buying new/used vehicle

Submitted: Saturday, Jul 05, 2008 at 04:18
ThreadID: 59503 Views:3721 Replies:10 FollowUps:15
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A few recent posts got me thinking about vehicle costs, especially the ’diesel cars cost more to run than petrol’ thread. Bridging the comparison between diesel and petrol was the the fact that they are all new vehicles. I thought to myself that if you are really concerned about vehicle costs, surely the idea of new versus second hand is just as important; especially as quite a few replies were about depreciation and running costs from new.

I wondered a bit more about buying new vehicles and came up with this - there may be a few exceptions, but people buy new cars for only a couple of reasons;
1) because they can – (financially able to so ‘why not’)
2) ‘bling’ factor – nice to own something shiny and new
3) the security of a warranty

The first two reasons are straight-forward; it’s the third that got me thinking….

Firstly, this probably only applies to people that buy a personal vehicle; ie, not claimable on business or tax, not leased, or part of a salary etc.

Next it is important to understand that warranty is basically a type of insurance.

How much per year do individuals pay for other insurance?
Comprehensive vehicle – a few hundred
Medical – a few hundred
Is there any type of insurance that deviates from these general numbers? Maybe, but I don’t know them. Except for vehicle warranty.

I’m just going to work with rough figures here to illustrate my point; it is the principle I’m interested in, not the nitty-gritty details.
Let’s say a vehicle costs $70K new; then the same model but out of warranty (3yo or 100,00km) would have to be atleast $10K cheaper, maybe up to $20K.
Add on to that the service costs in that time to keep it in warranty (even if it’s not a Landcruiser with 5K oil changes) it is still $60 per hour labour.
So the servicing costs to validate warranty plus the difference in cost between a new and 2nd hand vehicle (so that you have warranty) would be, for arguments sake, around $20K

Already there is a marked difference; comprehensive vehicle insurance which covers writing off your vehicle or even crashing into a Ferrari or accidental death: a few hundred dollars.
Buying new so that you get a warranty: twenty thousand dollars. (just incase something goes wrong with the car).

‘But if I buy new I know the service history of the vehicle’ – Well there are a few posts here that inform us that a service isn’t always a service. So there is no difference between a 2nd hand vehicle with a service record and a vehicle owned from new. Unless you check everything that was supposed to be done at a service you do not know that the service was performed properly. The only way to know something is done properly is to do it yourself.


Regards

Brian

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Reply By: Member - Tony B (QLD) - Saturday, Jul 05, 2008 at 05:58

Saturday, Jul 05, 2008 at 05:58
Bware. There is a more important factor you have missed. I was one that would never had brought a new car, have now but will it be the last for the reasons you stated. The thing that tipped me over to a new car was a lemmon of a Toyota I brought, Late model, low kilometers. Always wanted one, I know cars and thought I would not get caught. Problem is they clean these cars up so well these days even with much scruitiny you can still get a lemmon. This is the most important factor. You know what the car has done as far as off road work if you have owned it from new. That cruiser I brought was from out of State so history was not traceable. In the end it must have a hard life and been buried with all the diffs under it seems. But in the end costs are to high on a new vehicle for most of us. Regards Tony. P/S Photo of lemmon Cruiser on My Profile at Cape Bedford.
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Follow Up By: Member - Tony B (QLD) - Saturday, Jul 05, 2008 at 06:01

Saturday, Jul 05, 2008 at 06:01
By the way, looks like you have overloading issues as well. LOL. Tony
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Follow Up By: Wok - Saturday, Jul 05, 2008 at 07:30

Saturday, Jul 05, 2008 at 07:30
Hijack,

Tony...in your pic, is that the kitchen that swings out?......great idea :)
What did you use for the pivot?

eng
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Follow Up By: Member - Tony B (QLD) - Saturday, Jul 05, 2008 at 18:22

Saturday, Jul 05, 2008 at 18:22
Hijack. I used Rural Gate post hinges, the type you weld on to the post and you can lift off. Welded them to the frame and a bracket that bolts to the back of the kitchen unit. It is quite a trick getting them welded at the exact angle for the swing in and out to work effectivly. Cheers Tony
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Follow Up By: Bware (Tweed Valley) - Saturday, Jul 05, 2008 at 18:58

Saturday, Jul 05, 2008 at 18:58
Who's Jack? LOL

Tony, thanks for pointing that out. Yes, the actual driving history is very relevant. Although it was probably more relevant years ago when people only bought 4wd's to use as a 4wd. It is probably reasonably easy now to buy a 'mum's taxi' that has never been off-road?

And yes, I have bought a lemon before as well :-(( I think this is more likely to happen if buying from a car yard than privately.

Not overloaded, 'cargo-space challenged' LOL Yeah, only a trailer will fix our woes and/or doing what you are considering. More and more it seems the way to fix things in life is to throw more money at the problem. Good luck with your trip and subsequent gvm upgrade.

regards

Brian
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Reply By: Member - Shane D (QLD) - Saturday, Jul 05, 2008 at 07:31

Saturday, Jul 05, 2008 at 07:31
HI Bware,
2 case's for you.
I bought my Nov'05, HZJ 105 cruiser in August '06.
It was owned by Queensland rail and service books show it been based at Western QLD.
Even thuogh it had been on the road for only 8 months, it had done 80000 ks, All services had been done (10k, as per service book), also came with Aircon, cargo barrier, ARB bullbar, aftermarket cruise control, ipf spotties, 3500kg towbar
I got this for $35000 from a dealer, still covered by Toyota's factory warranty (3 years,100000k).
I now have taken it over the 100000k, which is just run in for 1HZ.
I apart from from some signs of westren QLD red dust I am confident that this has not been serious offroad, when did they have time!, actually I had trouble selecting low range, The lever was quite stiff from lack of use.
This vehicle new would retial in the $57-60K with out on road's and extras.
I don't have a problem with buying second hand at all if I'm getting something less than 1 year old, and saving around $25-30k and still under factory warranty.
I'm planning to keep this until the 250000k mark which will be not for another 7-8 years at which time the fact that it had 80k on it when I bought it will be well and truly eroded.
I just bought my Wife a Mitsubishi 380 VR-X, yes I know, they have a bit of a stigma, but all my research shows was they have nothing wrong except a terrible resale value, (lucky for me).
It's plated Dec 05 but the service books show it's 1500km Service wasn't done until july '06, It now has 60km, I got it for $17000 (rrp in '05 was$40K PLUS)agian has 3 years/ 70k remaining on factory warranty.
I'll be keeping this one for 8-10 years also.
Shane
AnswerID: 313936

Follow Up By: Bware (Tweed Valley) - Saturday, Jul 05, 2008 at 19:36

Saturday, Jul 05, 2008 at 19:36
Well done Shane. I hope both cars give you years of pleasure and are trouble free.

It sounds like the best of both worlds; second hand but still under warranty which saves you thousands of bucks.

cheers

Brian
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Reply By: Member - DAZA (QLD) - Saturday, Jul 05, 2008 at 07:41

Saturday, Jul 05, 2008 at 07:41
Hi All

I have lost count of the new vehicles we have purchased over the
years.

In the early days I used to by second hand and also service the
vehicles, it was a case of we couldnt afford to do otherwise.

As things got better and our work changed, re being on call 24/7
we could afford new vehicles but didnt have the time to service them.

Started own business same thing, can afford new vehicles no time to
service them.

Getting close to retirement, bought retirement vehicle, still will
get it serviced while under warranty, WILL BE TO BUSY FISHING.

Cheers
Daza
AnswerID: 313937

Follow Up By: Bware (Tweed Valley) - Saturday, Jul 05, 2008 at 20:01

Saturday, Jul 05, 2008 at 20:01
"too busy fishing" No need to rub it in ;-)))

I'm at the stage that you mentioned "we couldn't afford to do otherwise". With some hard work and a little luck my wife's and my individual businesses will be successful and give us the opportunity to say some day 'too busy fishing' :-))

cheers

Brian
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Follow Up By: Member - DAZA (QLD) - Sunday, Jul 06, 2008 at 08:13

Sunday, Jul 06, 2008 at 08:13
Hi Brian

Yeah mate, in our younger days, we would do our own repairs and
servicing, also get parts from the wreckers ect, we struggled a lot.

I then got a job with Local Government, and went on contract with them, which required us to supply our own vehicles, every 2 years,
the same as Local Government does, over a 26 year period we went
through a lot of vehicles, Utes and 4x4's.

We then went into Plumbing Contracting and replaced them as
the leases ran out.

We have just replaced one of the vehicles, an 18 month old Navara
with our proposed Retirement Vehicle a Nissan Patrol, we will start
travelling in the next few months, and the only thing I want to work on is FISHING.

Cheers
Daza
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Reply By: Member - Phil G (SA) - Saturday, Jul 05, 2008 at 09:13

Saturday, Jul 05, 2008 at 09:13
Gday Brian,

I've bought new vehicles because of RELIABILITY. All the parts are new, so out in some remote part of the desert you are less likely to have an alternator/starter motor/battery/motor/clutch/etc etc failure. And older vehicles can cost a heap in repairwork. And depreciation hasn't been an issue - I've always been able to talk the new price down by $5k+ but can't do that on used.

But warranties and dealer servicing give me the pips. In the past I went over the vehicle with a spanner and checked the work, and sometimes was surprised at what had been left loose, or what was not done. Those poor apprentices are under a lot of time pressure, and the dealer charges $100 an hour. And when a dealer mechanic killed a Prado motor by leaving some air conditioner parts inside the airfilter, I decided I'd go back to DIY on all our vehicles - new and used. I get peace of mind to know I've used the best parts, lubricants and the job's been done.

But anything I can't do is done by whoever I think is the best repairer - either diesel mechanic, 4wd service centre or Dealer.

Current Landcruiser is almost 6 years old, and has 130,000k. Normally I'd have replaced it by now, but I have to say I don't think the new V8 traytop is a better vehicle than the TD it replaced. So I'm hanging onto this one. It means I now carry a few extra spares on the desert trips and replace some parts before their due time.

Cheers
Phil

AnswerID: 313951

Follow Up By: Bware (Tweed Valley) - Saturday, Jul 05, 2008 at 20:17

Saturday, Jul 05, 2008 at 20:17
Thanks for that perspective Phil.

I know what you mean about servicing. When I bought my 80series (second hand) the first thing I did was get a major service done. When I checked it I found the latches undone that secure the air filter cover to the base. It makes you think that if you have to go over the whole vehicle to check everything you might as well do it yourself.

regards

Brian
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Reply By: Member - Oldbaz. NSW. - Saturday, Jul 05, 2008 at 09:58

Saturday, Jul 05, 2008 at 09:58
New or Used is a matter of personal choice & there are valid arguments for
& against. I have never bought a new car in my life as I dont
consider any of the pro arguments overide the cost savings. I base my vehicle costs on the amount I pay divided by the number
of years I operate the vehicle. I ignore running costs as they apply
to all cars, & I have been lucky enough to have never suffered a
major cost issue with any used car I've owned. OK so I havent had the latest toy & my current cars are 14 & 16 years old, but
they are economical, reliable & comfortable. For example, car 1
is a 205 Peugeot, 1992 model, purchased in 1997 for $15k.
(Dearest car I ever bought). In 11 years this car has cost me
about $1350 a year in capital expenditure, I expect it to last another 5 years, the cost will then be down to less than $1k a
year. If you can get your annual capital expenditure down to that
figure with a $70k purchase, let me know how you did it.
Now, my 4wd cost me $14k two years ago & will last another 8
years at least, giving me an annual ex 0f $1400 per year. It is
capable of all the 4WD touring I wish to do, & once again the
annual cost is negligible. I run another 94 Peugeot, cost $9k,
5 years ago.... same story. Now I can run all 3 at a fraction of the
cost per year of one $70k rig. I enjoy the low fuel costs of the
cars, & have a good 4WD in the shed for holidays.
I reckon I have killed the demon Depreciation & am more than
happy with my motoring lot. New car ?? Not bloody likely!!!
Call me a miserable old fart....& I am, but I would sooner put bucks in the tank than watch my new car fall in value by the day.
But this is a free country, & the choice is yours.....oldbaz
AnswerID: 313957

Follow Up By: Bware (Tweed Valley) - Saturday, Jul 05, 2008 at 20:27

Saturday, Jul 05, 2008 at 20:27
Oldbaz, it certainly is a free country. I guess the point of the post is that some people may not have thought of the warranty issue in that particular light, especially if warranty is the reason they buy a new car.

Yep, I agree with your way of thinking; if I won $100,000 tomorrow I would still buy second hand and use the difference on fuel, travelling or other things unrelated to car-ownership.

cheers

Brian
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Reply By: Willem - Saturday, Jul 05, 2008 at 09:58

Saturday, Jul 05, 2008 at 09:58
Brian

Wishing to stay out of debt for the latter part of my life, I have only had a few new vehicles. I have bought 95% of my vehicles from dealers and have seldom acquired a lemon.

New vehicles are nice but can also be built first thing on a Monday morning or late on a Friday afternoon rendering them problematical. The manufacturer, wholesaler and dealer all have to make a profit and so the minute the ink is dried your new asset has lost maybe 25% of its value. So now you have to drive it for a while. Admittedly a new vehicle will go for much longer without needing major repairs.

I buy secondhand and have been lucky over the years in buying 98% good roadworthy and mechanically sound vehicles. My GQ Nissan diesel was bought for $13,000 with 265,000km on the clock. Now, 4 years later, I have driven a further 100,000km with the vehicle and the repair cost has been $11,000 with the only other cost being oil changes at 10,000km intervals, tyre and battery replacement. This vehicle has taken me to many extremely remote places without fuss and it should give me at least 500,000km before I need to think about either updating the whole vehicle or just the engine and drivetrain.

Diesel or petrol driven I think is much of a muchness in the long run. I bought a diesel for remote availability of fuel.


Cheers
AnswerID: 313958

Follow Up By: Bware (Tweed Valley) - Saturday, Jul 05, 2008 at 22:31

Saturday, Jul 05, 2008 at 22:31
Willem, I wish to stay out of debt too at 44. If I die in the near future then this is the latter part of my life? LOL

Diesel or petrol being neither here or there I agree with; horses for courses. I think this is what prompted me to post this thread. There are ample articles about vehicle costing ie car A costs $5 less per week to run than car B, but they always fail to address the fact that the most expensive part of owning a car is the first few years of ownership of a new car.

Happy travels

Brian
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Reply By: Louie the fly - Saturday, Jul 05, 2008 at 10:47

Saturday, Jul 05, 2008 at 10:47
We bought our current family car as an ex Holden owned vehicle from a dealer. It was 10 months old, fully optioned and 7400 kms on the clock. I had the dealer put the factory fog lights and 2100kg tow pack on and it cost me $20000 less than new. Dealer always services it though. In the 3 1/2 years we've had it it now has 76000kms on it and not a single problem. If I had bought new it would have been worth the same money today, so I have saved 20K, to put towards servicing and fuel.
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Follow Up By: Bware (Tweed Valley) - Saturday, Jul 05, 2008 at 23:05

Saturday, Jul 05, 2008 at 23:05
Thanks for the input Mr Fly. A $20K saving, in my books, is the practical way to go.

I think it astounds me that people upgrade every few years (no offence to those that do it). If I could afford to lose $20K every 3 years (by upgrading a car) I would not be buying new cars; I could take my wife to exotic and romantic places, take more time off work to go camping, buy a dinghy....

By the way, I like your signature thing about a computer; it gives me a laugh every time I see it :-))

regards

Brian
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Follow Up By: Louie the fly - Sunday, Jul 06, 2008 at 09:17

Sunday, Jul 06, 2008 at 09:17
Cheers Brian. In fact, we did those exact things that you mentioned. We were cashed up, so to speak, for a new car but instead we had a family holiday in Fiji and bought a new ski boat. That cost more than the 20K but at least we were able to offset those costs. And it's all about lifestyle. The boat came a bit later coz we got jack of the old one.

My siggy reflects my occaisional attitude towards computers.
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Reply By: Saharaman (aka Geepeem) - Saturday, Jul 05, 2008 at 12:43

Saturday, Jul 05, 2008 at 12:43
Bware,
I've always held the view that if you have a business that the vehicle can be accounted for, then buy new (or lease) and get the maximum tax advantage.
If you are buying for private use then I would buy second hand and I prefer to buy at private sales or auctions rather than through dealer. The benefits are that you can talk to the owner and get a first hand description of the vehicles life - dealers know nothing about the previous owners. They probably got it at wholesale auctions. Generally by having a chat to the owners you can a feel for how the vehicle has been looked after. I always ask "Why are you selling?" and "how long have you owned the vehicle?" which normally gives you insight into their honesty. These days you can easily do vehicle checks to make sure its not stolen or encumbered.
If you are buying say a luxury car its common knowledge most are on a 48 month lease so there's heaps of them that age for sale. Most are in top condition and well services under the lease. Most drop about 50% of their retail price at the end of 4 years. For example a 2003/2004 Audi A6 Turbo Diesel Quattro that was over $100k new is now selling for about $50,000 (after on lease). If the choice was a new Holden Calais for $50,000 or a 2004 Audi A6 (turbo diesel) for the same price I would take the Audi anyday. But its a personal choice and a free country as said in posts above.
Cheers,
Glen
AnswerID: 313985

Follow Up By: Bware (Tweed Valley) - Saturday, Jul 05, 2008 at 23:37

Saturday, Jul 05, 2008 at 23:37
Thanks Glen,

I'm working towards being able to claim a vehicle through business. It is definitely a better option than private use.

Great advice and information you offer. Although at $50K for a 2nd hand Audi I might look at a bicycle as my second vehicle LOL

Cheers

Brian
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Reply By: Member - Andrew (QLD) - Saturday, Jul 05, 2008 at 19:38

Saturday, Jul 05, 2008 at 19:38
I wouldnt limit the reasons to just those mentioned....other factors may include:

1) safety features - new cars generally come out with new and improved safety features which "i" may want.

2) New design and features - the new 200 series and others are very popular, and this may be due to their new features, including engine, which may be a requirement (eg towing etc)

3) Colours - We have spent the day looking at new and used cars today and the wife is interested in the colours more than anything else. A new car "may" have a prefered colour that "she" may like.....hmmm, is lemon such a bad colour as i believe? :-)

4) unworn equipment - like others have said, the drivetrain etc will usually last longer in a new car than a used one.

5) ability to customise easier - Whilst i could search around for the right secondhand vehicle with the features that i want, sometimes it is easier to purchase a customised vehicle to my liking. (probably comes down to your point number 1 sometimes :-)

I might go and have a beer to get my head around all these numbers and options now. :-)

Andrew
AnswerID: 314036

Follow Up By: Bware (Tweed Valley) - Sunday, Jul 06, 2008 at 00:00

Sunday, Jul 06, 2008 at 00:00
Yes, well, just blow me out of the water why don't you? LOL

All good points except number 3; chartreuse is in ;-))

BEER IS GOOD

cheers

Brian
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Reply By: Member - Davoe (Yalgoo) - Saturday, Jul 05, 2008 at 23:12

Saturday, Jul 05, 2008 at 23:12
for starters cruisers have 10k normal dutie service intervals and have done since the 79/100

Main reasn for me not having a new vehicle is simply I couldnt afford one. there is no way in hell Id borrow cash for a depreciatng non asset .
as for 4bys thers no way in hell i would take a 50 pluss vehicle and get the bejesus scratched out of it like my 80.
if your talking cars.
Ive learned my lesson. a car is for going to point a-b thats it. If I ever buy another car it will cost no more than 3 grand.I will make sure the brakes ar OK register it 3rd party property then just drive it till its dead maybe change the oil and filter 1once a year. when it died I would call those wreckers that take your car for free and get the bus home before buying another 2-3k dunger.

thats the cheap sensible way to own a car. Nothing for repairs/BA maintenance and no massive depreciation yearly
AnswerID: 314058

Follow Up By: Bware (Tweed Valley) - Sunday, Jul 06, 2008 at 10:13

Sunday, Jul 06, 2008 at 10:13
Strong logic on all points there Davoe. I pretty much agree.

I thought I may have been wrong on the service intervals since my knowledge is limited to the 80 and will be for a while yet.

I know a couple of people that use cars the way you describe. Buy them cheap then throw them away. It certainly works.

cheers

Brian
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