Where to put fuse on solar/regulator/lights
Submitted: Wednesday, Sep 03, 2008 at 14:32
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ben_gv3
I'm having a bit of a brain freeze atm and am wondering where to put the fuses holders.
I have a solar panel -> reg -> terminal block -> parallel batteries (due to space req'ts) and 12V LED lights.
So the batteries are parralled with the lights so they are directly powered by the reg. Is this wrong or should it be entirely in series, ie lights should only be powered from the batteries?
Usually I would put the fuses close to the batteries but the problem is that everything is paralleled so reg can also power the lights without the batteries even being there.
Should the the fuse now be between the reg and terminal block or still at the bettery ends?
Reply By: Russ n Sue - Wednesday, Sep 03, 2008 at 15:05
Wednesday, Sep 03, 2008 at 15:05
So far as your connections go, a lot depends on the type of regulator you have. Some have a connection for the solar panels, the battery and also the load, while others don't have a load connection. If yours has a connection for the load, you should use it, as many regulators calculate the amount of charge they need for the battery based on the load current as
well as the voltage of the battery.
The fuse locations should be planned to place them so that they protect anything that can't protect itself. If you have a separate Load connection, you should have the fuse at the regulator end. This will then protect against a problem with your load AND the cable that connects it.
With a connection to a battery under the above scenario, it is probably wise to have a fuse at the regulator end AND the battery end. This is because a pinched cable could be fed with current from either end, the battery or the regulator and fusing just one end will not necessarily immediately protect the other. Don't forget, fuses don't just protect equipment, they also prevent fires caused by cooking cables!
If your load is connected in parallel with your battery, it is often wise to have some sort of distribution system whereby each individual load device has its own correctly rated fuse and you have one larger rated fuse between the battery and the distribution point. A rough rule of thumb is to use a fuse that is the equivalent of the sum of all of the individual loads for this purpose.
You can never overdo fusing, but the consequences of underdoing it can be expensive and dangerous. Always err on the side of underrating fuses when selecting which fuse to use.
Cheers
Russ.
AnswerID:
323630
Follow Up By: ben_gv3 - Wednesday, Sep 03, 2008 at 16:03
Wednesday, Sep 03, 2008 at 16:03
Thanks Russ.
I'm using the Morningstar 4.5A reg so it only has connections for the panel and battery, so no load connections.
I was thinking I may need to fuse everything to be on the safe side.
FollowupID:
590714
Follow Up By: Mainey (wa) - Friday, Sep 05, 2008 at 09:33
Friday, Sep 05, 2008 at 09:33
Fit a decent fuse at each POS (+) battery terminal
Mainey . . .
FollowupID:
590982
Reply By: Member - Arthur V (VIC) - Wednesday, Sep 03, 2008 at 19:40
Wednesday, Sep 03, 2008 at 19:40
When you parallel batteries make sure one battery supplies the negative to the load and the other battery supplies the positive to the load, this way both batteries share the load equally.
AnswerID:
323691
Follow Up By: Ianw - Wednesday, Sep 03, 2008 at 21:05
Wednesday, Sep 03, 2008 at 21:05
What the???
If batteries are paralleled then they both share the load equally no matter where the load is connected!!! That is the whole point of paralleling batteries.
Ian
FollowupID:
590798
Follow Up By: Member - Arthur V (VIC) - Wednesday, Sep 03, 2008 at 21:29
Wednesday, Sep 03, 2008 at 21:29
Ian,
You obviously have not had experience in hooking up parallel batteries any good auto electrician would hook it up the way I explained, but yes do it your way and one battery will bear more load than the other.
FollowupID:
590802
Follow Up By: ben_gv3 - Wednesday, Sep 03, 2008 at 22:08
Wednesday, Sep 03, 2008 at 22:08
Arthur,
Interesting. I've never heard of doing it that way, but then again I haven't had much to do with parallelling batteries.
Everything will be going through a fuse panel that will act as a distribution block so there is no "direct" connection between the load and batteries if that helps.
FollowupID:
590806
Follow Up By: Nomadic Navara - Wednesday, Sep 03, 2008 at 22:08
Wednesday, Sep 03, 2008 at 22:08
Arthur is correct in his suggested way to parallel batteries. He also should have added that the two cables connecting the batteries should be identical. When you draw high currents the resistance between the batteries does affect the power taken from each battery (and this also applies to high charging currents.)
PeterD
FollowupID:
590807
Follow Up By: Ianw - Wednesday, Sep 03, 2008 at 22:20
Wednesday, Sep 03, 2008 at 22:20
Ben is talking solar panel and LED lites!! No high currents there!! so not relevant.
Ian
FollowupID:
590808
Follow Up By: Nomadic Navara - Wednesday, Sep 03, 2008 at 22:43
Wednesday, Sep 03, 2008 at 22:43
May be so now, but what is he going to add later? Do things properly to start with.
PeterD
FollowupID:
590810
Follow Up By: Mainey (wa) - Wednesday, Sep 03, 2008 at 23:14
Wednesday, Sep 03, 2008 at 23:14
As stated above, when two batteries are wired together in parallel, the two (+) terminals are connected together and the two (-) terminals are also connected together, giving 12v but doubling the amps available from just one battery, assuming both batteries are identical.
The Alternator (and solar system) connects to the (+) terminal of battery "A"
therefore, the (-) terminal of battery "B" is used as the earth connection.
This configuration will form the complete electrical circuit.
This is a very good reason to have decent battery cable between the two batteries and a solid earth mechanism.
The two batteries will be charged and also dis-charged as only one large battery when using thick battery cable between them.
Mainey . . .
FollowupID:
590812
Follow Up By: Member - Arthur V (VIC) - Thursday, Sep 04, 2008 at 09:29
Thursday, Sep 04, 2008 at 09:29
Ok I'll please explain,
Batteries have internal resistance and this resistance can never be identical as the resistance relies on many factors eg. amount of lead on each plate, Ph of fluid, temp and so on.
Now the voltage in both batteries is the same because we have wired them up in parallel. If we now connect the load across the terminals of a single battery, the battery with the least internal resistance will supply the most current. Now after a few years you'll find that your setup won't hold the charge as it did, if you then check each battery one will hold a charge and the other won't.
Now if you connect the batteries as I've explained in the first post, that is in parallel but the load minus off one battery and load positive off the other battery, then the internal resistance is of both batteries and the same current flows in both Batteries.
Another way to explain this is to have to identical
water tanks suppling a single tap one has a 4 inch pipe the other has 1 inch pipe, you turn on the tap and yes you should be able to work that one out.
Arthur
FollowupID:
590831
Follow Up By: Member - Arthur V (VIC) - Thursday, Sep 04, 2008 at 09:38
Thursday, Sep 04, 2008 at 09:38
What I forgot to mention is the when you charge the batteries via solar or battery charger the same applies. That is the batteries are connected in parallel but one battery receives the positive charge and the other battery the negative charge.
Arthur
FollowupID:
590832
Follow Up By: Ianw - Thursday, Sep 04, 2008 at 21:52
Thursday, Sep 04, 2008 at 21:52
Two resistors in parallel, unless they have exactly the same resistance, will always have different amount of current flowing in them if the voltage across them is identical. (Which it is). Ohms Law. It doesn't matter which one is closer to the power source or the earth. The ONLY possible way that the same current will flow in both resistors (batteries) is if they are connected in series.
If there is a difference in the wiring resistance to each battery or resistor, that is a different matter entirely. That is a wiring problem !
Ian
FollowupID:
590936
Follow Up By: Member - Arthur V (VIC) - Friday, Sep 05, 2008 at 08:36
Friday, Sep 05, 2008 at 08:36
In the way I've connected up the batteries the voltage is in parallel and the current flow is in series if you still don't understand pm me, I have had practical experience in the setup.
Arthur
FollowupID:
590975
Follow Up By: Mainey (wa) - Friday, Sep 05, 2008 at 09:26
Friday, Sep 05, 2008 at 09:26
Arthur
Sorry about the (lack of) 'artwork' quality, but what's this 'drawing' represent?Image Could Not Be Found
Mainey . . .
FollowupID:
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Follow Up By: oldtrack123 - Friday, Sep 05, 2008 at 10:28
Friday, Sep 05, 2008 at 10:28
Hi Ian
"If there is a difference in the wiring resistance to each battery or resistor, that is a different matter entirely. That is a wiring problem "
AND isn't that EXACTLY why it is always recommended to keep equal resistance in the paralleling leads & put pos load & charge leads on one bat & neg on the other, as others have advised.
It is true that with low charge & discharge currents the effect is minor , BUT your 1st post did not point this out .
I believe posts should not be ambiguous but clearly state if they are only true under certain conditions as your is,other wise they may be taken as gospel & people are getting incorrect info.
FollowupID:
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Follow Up By: Member - Arthur V (VIC) - Friday, Sep 05, 2008 at 12:20
Friday, Sep 05, 2008 at 12:20
Hi Mainey,
Yes thats the way to connect batteries when in parallel.
Arthur
FollowupID:
591012
Follow Up By: ben_gv3 - Friday, Sep 05, 2008 at 13:21
Friday, Sep 05, 2008 at 13:21
Mainey,
I'm being a bit ignorant here but what's wrong with connecting the load, ground and voltage source to the wires connecting the batteries together as oppossed to one battery or another.
I must be missing something here.
I thought parallel is parallel. I realise the voltage is parallel but current is in series. (Trying to get my head around it still)
FollowupID:
591023
Follow Up By: Nomadic Navara - Friday, Sep 05, 2008 at 15:07
Friday, Sep 05, 2008 at 15:07
Ben
It is easier to stick to the way Mainey drew the diagram. It is easier to connect several wires to the terminals on the batteries than introduce extra terminals in the leads (straps) between the batteries. If you wish to connect to the straps then connect to the centres of then to keep equal resistance between each battery terminal and the new terminals.
PeterD
FollowupID:
591034
Follow Up By: Mainey (wa) - Friday, Sep 05, 2008 at 16:48
Friday, Sep 05, 2008 at 16:48
For accessories I (generally) fit a fused electrical distribution box to the (+) battery terminal charged by the Alternator/Solar system, and wire everything through it, EXCEPT a fridge which I hard wire direct via it's own fuse.
All earths are returned back to the (-) terminal on the 'earthed' battery or the actual earth bolt, creating a stable electrical circuit.
Mainey . . .
FollowupID:
591044
Reply By: Nomadic Navara - Wednesday, Sep 03, 2008 at 22:41
Wednesday, Sep 03, 2008 at 22:41
Quote "Usually I would put the fuses close to the batteries but the problem is that everything is paralleled so reg can also power the lights without the batteries even being there." - There is not much use powering the lights from the regulator, you don't need the lights when the sun is shining.
Forget all the talk about fuses protecting your equipment. When the current drawn by any equipment blows properly rated fuses, that equipment is already buggered. Fuses are used to prevent fires, either started by the buggered equipment catching fire or the wiring overheating due to excess current (possibly from excess current drawn by buggered equipment.)
Connect your 12 V distribution directly to the battery. This allows you to temporarily disconnecting your solar system (for service etc) and you are still left with your lights still operating. Place your fuse block near your battery. If the heavy battery lead to the fuse block passes through a metal battery enclosure then use a good insulating bush where it passes through the metal enclosure. Locate your solar controller close to the battery, the leads to the solar panel does not need fusing as the current from the panel is too weak to overheat the cable.
The fuse ratings should be no larger than half the cable current rating. If you think you need larger fuses then your cable is too small in cross section area. In the lengths employed in caravans if the cable current rating is not several times the current they supply you will experience too much voltage drop. For an excellent dissertation on this subject see
Site Link
Wiring in the compartment where the fuses, solar regulator and battery charger does not usually need protecting by fuses. The protection is needed before the cable exits this compartment and disappears into the walls. This is where the cable is more likely to overheat and people installing after market items in the vans spike the cable with nails and screws.
PeterD
AnswerID:
323728
Reply By: Member - Mike DID - Saturday, Sep 06, 2008 at 16:49
Saturday, Sep 06, 2008 at 16:49
The principle is simple - the fuses must be sized and located so that a short circuit or overload anywhere will stop a high current flowing that could cause overheating and a fire.
Batteries can supply huge currents in a short circuit so they need a fuse that is rated at LESS than the rating of the thinnest cable fed from it.
Solar panels do not need fusing because they are constant current sources. An 80 watt panel will deliver 4.5 amps into a 12 volt battery and 5 amps into a shortcircuit.
AnswerID:
324126