Red or blue bags

Submitted: Friday, Mar 20, 2009 at 23:36
ThreadID: 67027 Views:1721 Replies:8 FollowUps:13
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Thanks to those who answerd re the quetion I put onthe forum about red or blue rear air bags on my 100 series landcruiser and towing a 23ft van but I forgot to mention that I have a Hayman Reese togear and now some experts tell that bags should not be used with Hayman Reese, now Iam really confused.
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Reply By: Shaker - Friday, Mar 20, 2009 at 23:47

Friday, Mar 20, 2009 at 23:47
Simple ... ring Hayman Reese.
AnswerID: 355243

Reply By: Member - neville G (QLD) - Saturday, Mar 21, 2009 at 08:22

Saturday, Mar 21, 2009 at 08:22
I use airbags on my cruiser fitted with a hayman reece set up and towing a 3t. phoenix, no trouble to date and the rig tows beautifully.
Cheers Nev.
AnswerID: 355270

Reply By: Member - Graham H (QLD) - Saturday, Mar 21, 2009 at 09:07

Saturday, Mar 21, 2009 at 09:07
As i said I have both Polyairs and progressive springs and tow full time at the moment.
As I also said Airbags only lift the load above them.
They do NOT help level the vehicle when hooked up to a trailer.
That is what the WDH is for
It is no different to having a lift kit in the car.
If you lift it you just drop your adjustable hitch down a notch to keep the vans A frame at the correct height.
just rememder to pump them up BEFORE you load the vehicle
I run mine at about 7lb empty and had I rmembered would have pumped them up to about 20lb before leaving on this trip.
I would doubt that they make any difference at all to the hitch apart from raising the rear of the car a bit

Definition of an Expert.

One who has learned more and more about less and less and now knows everything about nothing.

LOL from a satisfied user
AnswerID: 355274

Reply By: Axel [ the real one ] - Saturday, Mar 21, 2009 at 09:29

Saturday, Mar 21, 2009 at 09:29
Seems some confusion is afoot , the whole point of the polyairs or firestone [ red or blue ] is to help with weight and to LEVEL the vehicle , Scene 1 : you load up your vehicle and note how much the rear end had dropped , by the "book" you now unload the vehicle and pump up the airbags to maximum , reload vehicle and then release air until vehicle sits level ,,nothing to it ....

Scene 2 : you have your vehicle loaded and level , hitch up the van / ct / whatever and the rear end drops lifting the front ,, same ole same ole , unhitch , pump airbags to max , hitch up and check level of vehicle , let out air from bags as necessary untill vehicle is level ,,,,,,,

Scene 3: Cant get vehicle level hitched and loaded , use your Haymans AS WELL.
AnswerID: 355279

Reply By: Member - Graham H (QLD) - Saturday, Mar 21, 2009 at 14:42

Saturday, Mar 21, 2009 at 14:42
I strenuously disagree

Airbags do NOT level up a vehicle after hitching up a van.

All they do is lift the back of the car and do NOT transfer ANY weight to the front wheels.

This subject was in a long thread some months ago.

If you hook up a van and take the weight on the front wheels and then the rear, then do it with the bags pumped up it will be the same.

If you dont even have bags and do the same and weigh it after fitting your WDH the front weight will be greater than it was before using the WDH.

The act of hitching the van creates an effect similar effect to a seesaw.
Put weight on one end and due to the axle in the middle the other end goes up . If you lift the springs you are only lifting the pivot point.
When you pull up your WDH you are straightening the rig and that transfers some weight to both the front wheels and a little to the axles on the van.
Its elementary really and the longer the distance between the rear axle and the towball the greater the effect of the weight put on it.

Think about it.
AnswerID: 355337

Follow Up By: Axel [ the real one ] - Saturday, Mar 21, 2009 at 15:55

Saturday, Mar 21, 2009 at 15:55
You can disagree all you like , the facts are that airbags are there to LEVEL the tow vehicle , pump em up high ,get the arse up into the air , hitch up and then lower the pressure so that the vehicle is LEVEL = normal steering ,,not light or heavy ,NORMAL.
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FollowupID: 623367

Follow Up By: Thermoguard Instruments - Sunday, Mar 22, 2009 at 15:37

Sunday, Mar 22, 2009 at 15:37
Hi Axel,

Sorry but you are wrong. Yes, the air bags may return the vehicle to 'LEVEL'. This will restore the seering GEOMETRY to 'normal' (if that was ever a problem) but it does NOT return the WEIGHT on the front axle to 'normal'.

It doesn't matter whether you have super heavy-duty springs, airbags, or even weld the rear suspension solidly to the chassis - there's no way in this universe you can put a load on a tow ball behind the rear axle and NOT remove weight from the front axle in the process.

You are entitled to your opinion but the laws of physics are a fact neither you nor anyone else can change.

Ian

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FollowupID: 623504

Reply By: Member - Graham H (QLD) - Saturday, Mar 21, 2009 at 17:30

Saturday, Mar 21, 2009 at 17:30
The fact is that air bags are there to lift the rear of a car with a heavier load than normal and situated ABOVE the bags.

U may think that they do what you seem to think but the facts are that they dont and can be proved by weighing as I stated.

The car may appear to be level after what you do but the weight will still be off the front.
Its a scientific fact that if you add extra weight at the one end of a piece of apparatus (the tow bar). that has a pivot point(in this case the rear axle) that you will remove weight from the other end ( the front axle).

This cannot be corrected by lifting the pivot point.
It can only be corrected by something like a WDH which transfers some weight by straightening the rig to do so.

Whatever you think it is a scientific fact so I will continue to use my WDH and hope I dont run into you on the road when your steering goes light unexpectedly.

A good example is a guy near where i lived who didnt use a WDH and has a big Coromal on a Patrol. It has airbags and no matter how hard he pumps them the front still stares at the sky.

I wouldnt drive it around the block let alone around Australia as the front wheels are barely touching the ground.
He reckons he doesnt need a WDH.


AnswerID: 355356

Follow Up By: Axel [ the real one ] - Saturday, Mar 21, 2009 at 18:54

Saturday, Mar 21, 2009 at 18:54
And a good example is my own 80 series , hitch up c/t and arse drops to the extent that the headlights even on low beam shine onto 20ft treetops ,use the firestones to level vehicle no problem , c/t towball weight of 160kg plus fully loaded vehicle ,,

Slashed passenger side airbag at CordillowDowns , left rear body drops 4" , front right raised 4" ,,, steering became very dodgy , had to release all air from r/hand bag inorder to have even slight steering control untill replacement bag sourced and fitted ,, BAGS LEVEL THE VEHICLE and help in the transfer of weight , you forget that the pivot point is NOT being lifted ,it is only levelled and the downward PRESSURE POINT [ the tow ball / tregg ect.] is given greater resistance to downward pressure ..

All that the Hayman bars do is act the same , horizontal spring instead of a vertical spring [ airbag].
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FollowupID: 623393

Follow Up By: Rolly - Sunday, Mar 22, 2009 at 13:41

Sunday, Mar 22, 2009 at 13:41
Axel - real or imitation - you are talking rubbish.
This subject has been dealt with on dozens of fora and the actual measured weights show categorically that the assisting of the rear suspension by simple spring (air or other) reinforcement does not return the truck's lost front end loading.

The WDH does transfer a portion of the vertical ball load to the front of the tug.

I think that you need to take the advice in your own signature.
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FollowupID: 623480

Follow Up By: Member - Graham H (QLD) - Sunday, Mar 22, 2009 at 15:00

Sunday, Mar 22, 2009 at 15:00
Thank you for the support It is a simple scientific fact that some people cant see, or in some cases dont want to.



Cheers


Graham
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FollowupID: 623497

Follow Up By: Member - Graham H (QLD) - Thursday, Mar 26, 2009 at 15:31

Thursday, Mar 26, 2009 at 15:31
To Axel the airbag expert "Please Explain"this


I pumped my airbags up to 24 lb 1lb below max

Measured under guards As below

Front 860mm

Rear 890mm Which has rear 30mm above front

Hooked up van which has a 305kg ball weight

Remeasured under guards

Front 880mm gone up 20mm

Rear 855 mm gone down 35mm which gives a difference of

the front being 25mm above the rear

Pulled up WDH

Front 870mm up 10mm from standard

Rear 870mm still down 20mm which is expected with the towball weight.

So where is your theory that bags level the vehicle now.
Thank you
I await you reply with interest
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FollowupID: 624347

Follow Up By: Axel [ the real one ] - Thursday, Mar 26, 2009 at 18:57

Thursday, Mar 26, 2009 at 18:57
Graham , have never said an expert on air bags but at least know more than you "pumped upto 24psi ,1 below maximum " time for you to read the polyair instructions , MAX is 30 psi red bags , 100psi on the firestone blue , its no wonder you cant level your vehicle ,you have no clue as how suspension airbags work.
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FollowupID: 624416

Follow Up By: Member - Graham H (QLD) - Thursday, Mar 26, 2009 at 19:14

Thursday, Mar 26, 2009 at 19:14
I gave you the figures now you tell me what is wrong.

You are like a politician and an airbag plenty of air but no substance as to a solution.
I do understand suspension ,dynamics and physics. However it seems you don't.

I was recommended not to go above 25lb and in fact if anything, more seems to exacerbate the problem
Two others agree with me, do they not understand either????



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FollowupID: 624422

Follow Up By: Axel [ the real one ] - Friday, Mar 27, 2009 at 09:08

Friday, Mar 27, 2009 at 09:08
When all else fails , read the instructions , something it seems you are incapable of doing.
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FollowupID: 624563

Follow Up By: Member - Graham H (QLD) - Friday, Mar 27, 2009 at 09:32

Friday, Mar 27, 2009 at 09:32
Another politicians reply. Lots of words that dont adrress the question

I have and do understand them.

You say it can be done so I gave you the figures of what I did so now tell me where Im going wrong.
Im interested to know how to do the impossible
.
You profess to know so tell or your argument falls on its face.




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FollowupID: 624574

Follow Up By: Axel [ the real one ] - Friday, Mar 27, 2009 at 15:38

Friday, Mar 27, 2009 at 15:38
OK Graham , u win , the 100,000 odd 4x4 vehicles fitted with airbags in Australia are all wrong , every truck fitted with airbags is wrong and every bus fitted with air bags is also wrong , obviously everyone has been misslead and no one can level a vehicle using airbag suspension being a factory fit or an auxillary fittment its all just a waste , yes Graham you are correct ,,, NOT.
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FollowupID: 624623

Follow Up By: Member - Graham H (QLD) - Friday, Mar 27, 2009 at 16:21

Friday, Mar 27, 2009 at 16:21
Once again you avoid telling me how I should level the vehicle by using the REAR airbags only.

You certainly can level a vehicle using the bags if it is only levelling the load in it but not after adding a load to the towbar, something most unusual in a bus for instance and the weight of the trailer would hardly affect a vehicle already weighing some 10 tonne anyway.

Using trucks and buses is only fudging the issue as I have been driving airbag equipped buses for 10 years and they are totally different to stuffing a pair of Polyairs in the back of a cruiser.
The ones I drove had individual controls for both front and/or rear or all at once.
It still doesnt alter the fact that if you put a heavy weight on the towbar 4 feet behind the rear axle, raising that point will not put the weight back onto the front wheels that the act of attachiing the van does.
As the other poster says even if you weld the axle to the chassis the act of putting the weight on the drawbar tips the back down and the front up and lifting the axle then does not alter the weight distribution. It may apppear to level the vehicle but running it over a weighbridge will confirm our theory.

Now please tell me what I am not doing with the bags as you have told me I am wrong but never do you say how to do it correctly however impossible it may be.

Otherwise the dialogue is pointless
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FollowupID: 624637

Reply By: Member - Graham H (QLD) - Saturday, Mar 21, 2009 at 19:25

Saturday, Mar 21, 2009 at 19:25
If you pump the bags up you must be lifting the rear or there is no point in having them. You say yourself that when a bag blew the rear dropped so it must have been raised or as you say levelled which is the same thing.
By lifting the rear or levelling it with the bags you do not transfer any weight forward which is what you need to do when towing a van as the springs and bags can only push one way. Straight up.

With what you say it certainly appears to level the rig as by raising the back before you hook up it will appear to be level with the weight on it but it will do that by also lifting the front to match.
Run it over a weighbridge and you will see.

A WDH works on a different principle as by lifting the connection between then car and the van it straightens the rig up and thereby transfers the weight across the pivot of the rear axle back to the front axle.

It works the same whether you raise the vehicle with bags or springs or whatever
My van has a ball weight of 305kg and airbags really are a waste of time. Ive only got them cos they were cheap and I thought I would try them.
The progressive springs are far better and cheaper as well.

I have the WDH set up so that I can pull it up to have the rig dead level whatever the load in the car.All at matter of proper setupand with the springs dont need to worry about blowing a bag.
Hopefully someone with better engineering knowledge than me will back my description up. If I am proved wrong I will aplogise but dont think I need to worry.
AnswerID: 355367

Follow Up By: Axel [ the real one ] - Sunday, Mar 22, 2009 at 09:57

Sunday, Mar 22, 2009 at 09:57
You still dont get it do you ? Your progressive springs do what ? They take the EXTRA weight , same as an air bag / stiffer spring does , what are your Hayman bars , NOTHING but a spring placed before the actual pivot point which you tension to LEVEL the vehicle , , Absolutly 100% no different to putting stiffer springs / airbags at the rear wheels of a vehicle , the whole point is to have the vehicle LEVEL ,,, if you cant get your vehicle level using your airbags you obviously dont know how to use them properly.
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FollowupID: 623454

Reply By: Member - Graham H (QLD) - Sunday, Mar 22, 2009 at 10:30

Sunday, Mar 22, 2009 at 10:30
And you dont get the fact that no matter how high or low your rear springs are if you place a substantial weight several feet behind them you are going to lift the front of the car. Its a simple matter of action and reaction. Exactly as I said with regard to the seesaw.

When I hook up tomorrow I will measure the height of the guards without pumping up the bags.
Then I will jack the rear of the car and pump them up and remeasure .
I bet the differences will be the same.

Perhaps we should agree to differ as this is getting nowhere and is far away from the subject of the thread


.

AnswerID: 355423

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